Concealed Carry

[Girlgun]

tlarkin, do you think this is true for all kids? 4H programs that teach gun safety, shooting clubs for youth, boy scouts (admittedly, I don't know much about that group as they are inactive in my area) etc ?
I ask because I work w/ youth too and my experience is that they have not been given adequate training in the things they know matter, including, but hardly limited to, firearms safety and shooting. They go from oversized schools to empty homes. Most of their sense of ethics they get from piers, not the adults in their lives. Most thrive on adult mentorship. Many respond well to an opportunity for responsibility, yet we take away more and more responsibility.

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by Girlgun

tlarkin, do you think this is true for all kids? 4H programs that teach gun safety, shooting clubs for youth, boy scouts (admittedly, I don't know much about that group as they are inactive in my area) etc ?
I ask because I work w/ youth too and my experience is that they have not been given adequate training in the things they know matter, including, but hardly limited to, firearms safety and shooting. They go from oversized schools to empty homes. Most of their sense of ethics they get from piers, not the adults in their lives. Most thrive on adult mentorship. Many respond well to an opportunity for responsibility, yet we take away more and more responsibility.

4H club doesn't exist where I live, and boy scouts is a very small group which is made up of all suburban kids.

Which is one reason why I brought up Switzerland, they are raised with guns, they know it is their duty as a citizen to have a loaded gun in their home.

We don't have that luxury here in the states. I went to college in Denver and I can say that almost all the kids I went to college with partied their butts off, and were mostly irresponsible. That is what teenagers do when they don't have parents for the first time.

I am sure in some communities where hunting and 4H are part of growing up they get hands on with guns more than anyone that I know or grew up with. Guess I am just a city boy.

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by Girlgun

tlarkin, do you think this is true for all kids? 4H programs that teach gun safety, shooting clubs for youth, boy scouts (admittedly, I don't know much about that group as they are inactive in my area) etc ?
I ask because I work w/ youth too and my experience is that they have not been given adequate training in the things they know matter, including, but hardly limited to, firearms safety and shooting. They go from oversized schools to empty homes. Most of their sense of ethics they get from piers, not the adults in their lives. Most thrive on adult mentorship. Many respond well to an opportunity for responsibility, yet we take away more and more responsibility.

Well put girl. We need to let our kids grow up. They can do this; relative youngsters helped us fight WWII. Kids out of high school serve in combat now.

I was in scouts as a kid, and my friends and I grew up around firearms. We learned gun safety from our parents, and were let carry a .22 rifle around the farm unsupervised once we demostrated proficiency, safety, and responsibility to our parents. My friends and I would go shooting as kids; no one ever got hurt, no one would ever think about shooting up a school. Dad and I went hunting together--these were memorable times.

Stuff like this is a part of growing up. If we treat our kids as juveniles forever, they'll stay that way. Churches, Youth Foundations, scouting, 4H, etc. help; we as parents raise our kids. We need to let them take on responsibilities as the demostrate that they can. This is how life works.

[FyreTyger]

I fully agree with everything you just said in regards to the admin. That's my point, at least *someone* would know, and it wouldn't be totally random. The admin would have some measure of control, and we as students would feel safer.

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by TXplt

Well put girl. We need to let our kids grow up. They can do this; relative youngsters helped us fight WWII. Kids out of high school serve in combat now.

I was in scouts as a kid, and my friends and I grew up around firearms. We learned gun safety from our parents, and were let carry a .22 rifle around the farm unsupervised once we demostrated proficiency, safety, and responsibility to our parents. My friends and I would go shooting as kids; no one ever got hurt, no one would ever think about shooting up a school. Dad and I went hunting together--these were memorable times.

Stuff like this is a part of growing up. If we treat our kids as juveniles forever, they'll stay that way. Churches, Youth Foundations, scouting, 4H, etc. help; we as parents raise our kids. We need to let them take on responsibilities as the demostrate that they can. This is how life works.

Tex,

What if they had like a university gun club, and you had to be a member to CCW? That way you could attend meetings, take safety courses, get to know other gun users/carriers, and get trained on how to be proper with your gun.

The admin side would know all members and would know who is carrying, and the members could exercise their right in a gun free zone. It would help promote gun safety too amongst peers. When you go to a gun club meeting you get to see everyone who carries, and if there are any blatant idiots the club and vote to kick them out or put them on probation or what not and then you know that morons aren't running around with loaded guns.

[Jersey Jailer]

Being from the soverign State of New Jersey, we have had many gun laws, which (since 1965) have been on the "books". You have to have a : Firearms ID" this allows you to purchase rifles, shotguns and ammo. A pistol purchase permit is required for each pistol you purchase along with a background check. The only problem with that is the law requires the P.D. to issue in 30 days, if youre lucky in some places to get a PPP in 90 days, if you complain the Chief can deny you as being a rabble rouser. NJ now has provisions for retired LEOs to carry. As a retired LEO< I have my CCW.

Having been a Use of Force Instructor for 20 years, I have seen the changes in the interpretation of the Laws, and how we trained the escalation of force. Now what used to be 30 min lecture, now takes 4 hours. I started 25 years ago, QUalifying twice a year. Then a civilian was killed, and we started 4 times a year. Now we are back to twice a year because the polititians didn't want to pay for the ammo and OT.

To carry on a school campus is touchy. NJ law forbids it and has since ? forever. Even our State Police are not allowed to carry on school property uless working. Their policy requires them to carry 24/7. When I was in college 30 + years ago most LEOs didn't carry off duty even when required by policy. Now most do. Its just the mindset of the younger people of today as oppsed to yesteryear. Not having been trained in Use of force, today I would Carry all the time, 30 years ago once the newness wore off ( we all went through that) I wouldn't and didn't carry, now I carry if I'm going to the range to qualify or I am going to a high crime area. You have to remember that if you bust a cap on someone, you wrote a blank check and handed over your debit card, because if you're wrong, you're in deep dodo. If you miss you're even deeper. Statistis show that trained LEOs in a stress situation loose 80% of their shooting ability. Questionj is is that percentage going to be higher or lower to the untrained individual. The first rule of gunfighting we teach is find "cover" or at least concealment. I think today some IPSC shooters some "not all" may think they are "super heros" and start spraying lead all oer the place in a critical stress situation.

Bottom line..... No, students do not need guns on campus, they need to worry about getting an education not getting shot at and the repercussions of using deadly force. If you are on a campus that, you are concerned for your safety at, then perhaps you should consider going to school where you feel safe.

[TXplt]

I think a firearms club at a university or school is an outstanding idea. In conjunction with certified instructors this could provide excellent training in firearms safety, self-defense, social interaction with others, etc--It's great to shoot at the range and meet new folks. This would be especially valuable for those not raised around firearms. This could also provide training and certification for those who don't yet have their CCW. I think it a great idea as well if universities had a CCW or firearms safety and qualification course for credit. This sure would beat advanced basketweaving as well as providing useful skill and training for our population. "Firearms 101, 201, etc." would be an outstanding addition to a unversity curriculum. The naysayers will dive to the "legal issues....liability.....etc." All I can say to that is shooting sports are as safe if not safer than skiing, running or bicycling (far safer than football for sure), and the cost-benefit equation lay far on the benefit side. Time to stand up and do what's right. One shoudn't live ones' life in the shadow of the fear of lawyers--not only will one live a miserable life, but, as mao said, they're "paper tigers."

I don't want to step on anyone's toes or make anyone feel bad, but I think the "tracking" thing (in my personal opinion) doesn't have a great deal of merit. (this is from someone who has "tracked" everything there is to track in the military at some point) Criminals and those who would do harm will be outside this system completely. CCW holders are already subject to suspension/revocation in the event of infractions. I really can't see where this gets us. McGarrett always finds the criminal through the registered handgun--luckily for us in the mid 70's all our criminals to be went out and registered their handguns (and gave their current address and phone #). I don't see a great deal of value in knowing who and where our legal firearms owners are (unless you're looking for a posse). If we "feel better" with this information "on file," maybe we need to look at why this makes us feel better in the first place--isn't this just a false sense of safety ? Again, not trying to make anyone feel bad, just my point of view after many years of seeing false sense of safety things not work.

Now to the harder question: should membership in a firearms club be a requisite for CCW on campus. For the legal aspect (i.e. criminal sanctions) absolutely not. The worst that should ever happen for someone CCWing with a permit who's not allowed to because of "company policy" should be suspension from school, not criminal or CCW license action. A state issued CCW should allow carriage anywhere by law. The CCW licensing system is actually pretty self-policing; if one handles a gun unsafely or does something illegal, that person's permit can be revoked. CCW holders enjoy a safety record equal to, or in many cases better than the "pros" (military/LEO). PA actually has some of the most sane laws in the country in this respect -- only court houses and schools are out of bounds (other than Fed stuff). If we can get rid of the "schools" part and Fed stuff, I guess I could live with the court room part.

Universities are private property, and their owners are allowed to do with their property as they wish. I would assert if they choose to ban firearms from their property, they should be liable for any criminal injuries occuring as a result because they stripped the individual of a viable means of self defense. The criminal's at fault; the university's culpable if it took away the means to fight back.

I could live with a university asking students wishing to carry on their private property to be a member of a firearms club or class with continuing training; this also might be a compromise idea for employers who prohibit carry on company property by employees. Such a system would have to be set up as a "shall issue" with no red tape in the way--I can, unfortunately, see this exploited as another hurdle to get in the way of legitimate gun carry. Anyone with a CCW could enroll (or become a member), and would be automatically and immediately eligible for carry upon enrollment. Enrollment would be wide open to all students with no limitations on group size. Training requirements, with regard to student schedules would be reasonable and not overly burdensome.

So, I think you have a great idea as long as it provides training and not an encumberance to CCW on campus. As long as it's set up so that folks can get legitimate training, and people can't use it as an excuse to keep folks from carrying. In the time it takes to set this up, people carry without restriction.

[Cyrano]

You know, there's a funny thing about CCW holders. They tend to be much more responsible than the run of the mill college student, becuase they are aware that they have the high justice riding on their hip, and that's a load that makes you think carefully before you act.

I suspect most college campuses think that "kids" (hey, if they are old enough to be charged as adults should a crime be committed, they are adults) with CCWs would act either like drunken frat-rats or boyz fum da 'hood as portrayed by Hollywood. This isn't a correct perception. I'd further bet none of the college administrators that set policy are shooters themsleves, much less pistol shooters with a carry permit.

Having responsible, licensed college students carry concealed would go a long way toward making the campus safe, not merely from crackpots like that kid who shot up Virginia Tech but also from rapists who prey on college coeds. The administrators ought to go out, spend some time at the range and talk to police officers about the mindset of carry permit holders before they knee-jerk a "no guns on campus" policy - but being that most of them are ivory tower, rose-colored-glasses-wearing liberals who think guns are e-v-i-l, the truth won't make a dent in their delusion that they know what's best for their students.

[tlarkin]

Statistis show that trained LEOs in a stress situation loose 80% of their shooting ability. Questionj is is that percentage going to be higher or lower to the untrained individual. The first rule of gunfighting we teach is find "cover" or at least concealment. I think today some IPSC shooters some "not all" may think they are "super heros" and start spraying lead all oer the place in a critical stress situation.

Yikes, 80%? Wow really? I was on the fence on this subject and one of the reasons holding me back was allowing people to carry weapons in high density populated areas with the lack of actual combat training.

[Jersey Jailer]

Cyrano,

I agree with your concept , if they are in college then they are adults. I was 17 as a freshman for about a month. I was at the Police station on my 18th birthday to get my firearms ID and first PPP. I even got a group together on campus and we formed a Rifle and Pistol Club. We had permission to use the township's Police Range. Unfortunately the club disbanded after I left to see uncle.

I worked as a Rangemaster at a Public Range and for the most part the LEO were the worst ones on the range in general. The did things that a civilian wouldn't even dream of doing for fear of being tossed out. Civilians in my experience, were more responsible and safety concious than the cops..

I still feel it's not a good idea to let any one who qualifies to carry a gun on campus.
I remember 30+ years ago, when I was done with uncle, how I and it was, the verbal abuse I/we took because I/we were "baby killers". When you see an SKS or AK pointed at you, you spray and pray, you didn't look to see how old the shooter was. When you watch a 4 or 5 year old kid walk up to your buddy and they vaporize right in front of you, you don't let little kids come up to you. If I had a gun on me, I might have used it. How would a young college student, with a gun, act when some other wise a$s liberal anti gun no commonsense POS gets in your face just 'cause you have a gun?

A case and point here is the Killadelphia (Philadelphia Pa.) Police Officers that were just fired for a "Rodney King" type incident. One of them was a straight A student, ex Marine while in Iraq, won a Purple Heart and I believe a Bronze Star, First in his Academy Class. How could he have even done something like that. I was not there and I wouldn't second guess what really happened. But in Philly and I was a Philly Cop, I'd probably do the same thing if someone got stupid with me. Because of the Hype the news media is giving to the murder rate. These poor guys were tried and convicted by the Media. Every day there is something on the news about a murder or accidental shooting. I genuinely feel for those cops because their lives have just gone to the gutter. At least here in New Jersey You may be suspended without pay but until the criminal charges are disposed of. Then if you're aquitted, then you deal with departmental charges.

I've digressed too far from the real issue, Yes they are adults and as such must be treated as adults, are they mature enough as first and second year students I don't think so. 3rd and 4th year,and maybe to get a carry permit, they should take a police psych exam as part of the application process. They must certainly take the same courses required for LEOs, in New Jersey you have to be trained in Use of Force, unarmed self defense, basic marksmanship and advanced pistol techniques, CPR and First Responder (first aid for LEOs once you shoot 'em you gotta save 'em if they ain't dead;-)) and with a few more courses they would qualify to be a Class II(special, part time) but, I still don't think a college Campus is the right place for concealed weapons.

[TXplt]

Jersey, respectfully, I disagree. Young adults are very much capable of being responsible around firearms; I was shooting my .22 unsupervised at our family farm after I demostrated proficiency and safety around age 12. My friends and I always stressed firearm safety; none of us was ever hurt or would have considered shooting up a school. Ya gotta let kids grow up sometimes--I know some 18 year olds who are more responsible than some 43 year olds; this is impossible to legislate or regulate. Even now, we have people of barely CCW age defending our country in combat.

It is wrong to deny those who've gone through the certification process a vital tool in the inherent right of self defense. It's wrong period. Criminals don't abide by the rules; that's what makes them criminals. CCW holders are a very responsible lot. We've tried the "prohibitionism" and "gun free" shooting galleries and it's only failed and resulted in carnage. When are we going to abandon this failed policy ? When are we going to realize, when someone's intent on murder, one more rule isn't going to help. When are we going to realize that CCW holders have an extremely low accident rate, and there's never been "blood in the streets" with either castle doctrines or with liberal CCW policies ? Waiting is just going to allow more students to be harmed by preditors, I believe. I also believe Alaska and Vermont have the best CCW policy (i.e. if you're not a felon you can carry any way you choose); as a compromise TX and FL are OK with training, a background check and qualification (nothing else--I think restrictive tests, etc., are completely unnecessary, useless to fight crime, and a unwarranted encumberance ripe for expolitation--this is from a 20 yr AF vet). PA is pretty good too.

I can't think of a time in my life, due to just anger at someone I'd have thought about shooting them out of spite. Possessing a firearm has always made me a more responsible citizen. I believe this has the same effect on any legal age across the nation for CCW (which, I believe, should be 18).

I understand your concerns, but I'd ask you to give it some thought yourself and realistically consider the actual threat vs. benefit. I'm an old guy and I'm very comfortable with college students carrying. Why could they fight in wars defending our country, yet be denied the same right in defending themselves ?

Take care.

[bill t.]

if you were 21 and well trained i'd say ok, but no if not

[Very Texas]

Here are my thoughts-anytime the Federal Government wants to mandate gun control I have an big issue with it. We have the Constitutional Right to Bear arms---end of story. Further-statistically most of the murders, random killings in this country are not from Law Abiding Citizens who follow purchasing laws and register their handguns-they are by low life hoodlems and illegals and people who fly under the radar.

I say if you have a concealed carry-you should be able to conceal and carry...

Never hand in your guns-it will be the end of civilization as we know it today!

[Girlgun]

I tend to agree w/ our Texan compadres, certainly in principle. I have kids in gun club who are as young as 11. (they can shoot an air gun at that age) and these same kids carry working knives on the farm. These are tools which are a part of our daily lives, just like pitchforks, axes, chainsaws and atv's. In contrast, the kids who have not grown up around guns and other tools are skittish about them, just like they are about livestock. I always tell them the same thing, "respect your fear; you don't know how to handle a chainsaw, a gun, or an uncastrated ram. it's common sense to be cautious" I never push these skittish kids, but teach them basic farm safety, a little at a time. They are always more confident when they leave than then they came. Sometimes they are surprised at what they can do. They've been raised to fear just about everything from the microwave to unseen pathogens. imho, hands on experience dissipates their fears and teaches them confidence instead of superstition.
Training is everything. I literally trust my life to my farm kids every time I hoist myself out of our hayloft on a rope, catch a bale one of them tosses to me, slip into a battering rams stall while one of them watches my back, or back up the truck while they direct me. I trust them because I trained them. With the right training and a sense of real responsibility, young folks can exhibit excellent judgement. Moreover, they thrive on it. Honestly, I trust these kids way more than I do most adults.
I do not debate that a large majority of our youth are silly, irresponsible and incapable of good judgement, particularly regarding firearms. But I cannot help but wonder if we haven't made our children into pets in the hopes of protecting them. There is nothing inherent in the human animal that says a youth must be incapable. Sure, they need guidance and a respect for their mentors. But it all boils down to how they are trained.
As for a school sponsored shooting club? As appealing as it sounds I cannot see it actually happening w/in our present cultural climate. (Does any University umbrella a gun club?) It would be actually feasible, however, to start up such a club outside of the University, but in the same town. This is not because I don't think it is a good idea; it is an excellent idea. But I cannot imagine a University admin approving it.
My sense of absolute constitutional conviction says, of course they should carry. But my sense of "omg, more controversy and besides, kids today; if some ditz did something stupid we'd never ever live it down..." gives me pause. Ultimately, I must say I think there should be a way to carry on campus but I don't see it actually happening w/out a change in public opinion and youth self image. The start would be good training in clubs which are near, but off campus, to set a precedent and establish that there are, in fact, responsible youth who are capable of carrying. These clubs might do well to offer self defense classes as well so that gun shy people might find themselves on good terms w/ an otherwise unfamiliar world and gradually shift their thinking from that of victims to responsible citizens. well, that's my 2 cents.

[Turbo]

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-fa...4-0-Screen.pdf

On another note. Ladies, please do not use a purse carry.