‘Our Country Is in Trouble’

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

We have offered them the choices you speak of, yet they still blow themselves up to kill infidels following the religious ideals that are taught to them.

I just don't get that rationale... other than to be followers. They have their choices... they chose badly.

yes! we have offered and many have takene the offer, many many many.

THEY= SOME and THEY does NOT = ALL

Then we need to alter what is being taught to them so the next generation is NOT worst than the current one. It will take time and is probably something like the walls in New Orleans should have been addressed decades ago.

They will only follow if what they see in who they follow offers promise or more than what they have. We need to show them the alternatives and we are and it is working. The Russians lost 35000 soldiers in Afghanistan in 8 years using just force. We have not chosen to take the same road as they did and we have witnessed a lot more success but total success isn't going to come at the convience of you or I it will come at the convience of the whole country. I honestly think our doctrine is working and the results are already evident.

[LarryO1970]

Am I quoting the Qur'an wrong or do those passages exist in the Qur'an ?

[tlarkin]

Again, Jihand is a subjective thing, its not black and white, and it all depends on how you interpret it. Just like all religious texts.

However, I digress, only certain people are allowed to declare Jihad, and it is not a decision just one man can make. People are not following the proper parts of the religion, they are contriving it, and turning it around to their perspective and their advantage.

When the Iraq war first broke out there were tons of shiite muslims ready to declare a Jihad and their leaders talked about it and did not declare anything off the bat. They waited it out and accessed the situation.

As for resources, OPEC, is a very large and powerful organization, and how do you think the people in power stay in power? They horde all the money from the Oil business. There are a lot of rich people over there that use religion as a tool to control the masses while they control the oil. The Bin Laden family has links into the oil business, and has even conducted business with US oil companies in the past. How is it not all about money in the end or at the root.

As for rebuilding Iraq, we kind of stuck our foot in our mouth invading them, finding no proof of WMDs or anything else, and not being able to link Iraq to any major terrorist networks. Even then, the rebuilding is still about money with nice hefty government contracts. Also, we don't have a habit of rebuilding everything we destroy, or help destroy.

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Am I quoting the Qur'an wrong or do those passages exist in the Qur'an ?

Nope, but we are talking about translations from two very different languages and older languages on top of that. When in the bible they talk about swords, they really most of the time mean daggers or small hidden knives. Some things are lost in translation and have different meanings.

It all comes down to interpretation really in a lot of cases.

[LarryO1970]

Aggression against infidels is just that.. a spade is a spade.

[tlarkin]

Larry, in the very beginning of the Qur'an Muhammad preaches peace and respect life and neighbors and a lot of what is in the christian bible. Only later on in the Qur'an, which I am not expert, but which is probably added texts does Muhammad break treaties and go to war. That part is the part that people misunderstand, twist and turn, and use it to explain things like Jihad. I don't understand it at all, and it could all be interpreted as a metaphor if you wanted to, or it could be seen as literal meanings, or however you see it.

Religion and religious texts are man made products, and are always subject to change, be re-written, and can be viewed in many different ways.

[LarryO1970]

So ... what is happening (subjectively) is that certain sects of Islamic followers are taking some of this out of context and far too literally... and speaking out as if to say this is for Allah when realistically, it is not.

Would you (tlarkin & Wingwiper) agree with that conclusion?

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

So ... what is happening (subjectively) is that certain sects of Islamic followers are taking some of this out of context and far too literally... and speaking out as if to say this is for Allah when realistically, it is not.

Would you (tlarkin & Wingwiper) agree with that conclusion?

Yup totally agree. To declare Jihad it takes the approval of the council of elders from the Muslim church. I don't know all the terminology off the top of my head, but I know that these terrorist networks declaring Jihad is not approved by the Islam nation. Just like how Hitler declared the German army an army of God, yet the Catholic church did not approve of them being an Army of god. Those iron crosses represented Christianity, and they felt they were actually an Army for God.

There are 1.7 billion Muslims worldwide and a small percentage of them are in terrorist cells doing bad things. They are the fundamentalists who take things too far and literally. I mean I am not very religious but I like to read up on religion. I think that most of the stories in any religious text are metaphors for how we should be morally in life.

Every religion that has ever existed for the most part shares one common story, they all have a great flood. I mean if you look at modern Christianity it Parallels ancient Egyptian religion in many ways, which was around about 4 or 5 thousand years before Christianity.

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

As for resources, OPEC, is a very large and powerful organization, and how do you think the people in power stay in power? They horde all the money from the Oil business. There are a lot of rich people over there that use religion as a tool to control the masses while they control the oil. The Bin Laden family has links into the oil business, and has even conducted business with US oil companies in the past. How is it not all about money in the end or at the root..

FrRance, Germany and Russia gain the profits as did Saddam from the Food for Oil etc.
You are very right about using religion to gain control.
Bin Laden family were in construction, I thought. Maybe they had iinvestments in oil, but then again anyone can. US oil companies are rather small as compared, we import all of our oil except for a very small percentage, Canada being the LARGEST exporter to us.

As for rebuilding Iraq, we kind of stuck our foot in our mouth invading them, finding no proof of WMDs or anything else, and not being able to link Iraq to any major terrorist networks. Even then, the rebuilding is still about money with nice hefty government contracts. Also, we don't have a habit of rebuilding everything we destroy, or help destroy.

WOW! I disagree with you here, Mr Larkin.
The debt that is owed to the US from World War II for doing just that was incredible until we forgave most. I think Japan was the only country to pay us back.
Go to the link, we have done a lot in Iraq as far as building and improving. They have more Power Grids on line now than before the US arrived.

You seem to understand the Qu'ran rather well, do you JUST study it or are you a follower? No insult intended,m just curious. I am learning from your discussion with Larry. I find it very interesting. Good posts from both of you.

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

FrRance, Germany and Russia gain the profits as did Saddam from the Food for Oil etc.
You are very right about using religion to gain control.
Bin Laden family were in construction, I thought. Maybe they had iinvestments in oil, but then again anyone can. US oil companies are rather small as compared, we import all of our oil except for a very small percentage, Canada being the LARGEST exporter to us.

Yes this is correct, and the Bin Laden family has ties to US oil companies, even companies that are owned and operated by the Bush family. See this link:

Bush Money

and this one

Bin Laden Ties

Also, Canda exports half, thats right 50% of their energy resources to our country. Do you think that relationship will last forever? What happens when Canada starts to say, sorry we need this for our country, what will happen?

WOW! I disagree with you here, Mr Larkin.
The debt that is owed to the US from World War II for doing just that was incredible until we forgave most. I think Japan was the only country to pay us back.
Go to the link, we have done a lot in Iraq as far as building and improving. They have more Power Grids on line now than before the US arrived.

I may have sounded a bit harsh but its true. We bomb countries all the time and don't clean up. Indo-China (or Vietnam) had been sought over by the French and the British before we ever fought there. The main reason was that they had the best land to produce rubber, as in the best land period in the whole world. This was a huge resource opportunity for the French, the UK, and of course the USA. The USA didn't seem to take hints from the French and the British pretty much getting their asses handed to them. We knew if we could get a foot in the country and help form a government we could have our hands in some of the largest rubber production in the world. Rubber is used for a large variety of things that we use in our daily lives, not to mention it makes car tires, which our nation relies on as its primary type or transportation. There were times at that war that we purposely destroyed fertile land to that would be used for rubber production, rendering it useless for probably decades until mother nature could heal itself. If we lost control of the middle east completely, do you not think we would try to destroy the oil fields? Destroying someone's economy is also a part of warfare.

However, our relationship with Vietnam is very good right now, and we have put all of that past us. I also like to point out that we always seem to have some sort of good political view of what we are doing is good and is helping a nation, but at the same time war = profit, and when you put people in power that have the self interest of making money off war it just seems to me that we are always fighting wars for the wrong reasons, and our troops are the ones that get used in the absolute worst way. They think they are doing something great, and yes sometimes they are, but at the same time they are also there for business. Its happened throughout our whole history. I read a book called, "The People's Guide to American History," by Howard Zinn, who has like 4 PhDs in history and teaches at harvard. His book is a report of what really went on from the beginning of our country until present, from 1492 to the present. It is a great book.

Afghanistan was my main point in this debate. We supplied them secretly with all sorts of weapons from AK47s, AA guns, RPGs, and other anti-tank and anti-aircraft ordinance weapons. Why didn't we just out right support them in the first place? We very well knew that it was going to be Russian's Vietnam war. We bled both nations dry of money and resources, and of course it was all about the red scare and the cold war. Millions of Afghanis lost their lives, and hundreds of thousands more were injured. Yet, after it was over we did not rebuild a single thing. Of course most people argue it was the CIA that did all of that, well is the CIA not a part of our government?

You seem to understand the Qu'ran rather well, do you JUST study it or are you a follower? No insult intended,m just curious. I am learning from your discussion with Larry. I find it very interesting. Good posts from both of you.

I take no offense to having knowledge of something. I think if everyone in the world took the time to learn about everyone else maybe we could have a small understanding about each other and not so much blind ignorance and hate. No, I do not study or practice any religion but have always been interested in all of it. I love mythology, and the Norse, Greek and roman gods, as well as Egyptian. I just find it cool and they are great stories to read. When I studied martial arts I got into eastern religion some, which goes along with the arts itself. In fact there are even arts that follow strict Buddhist or Taoist followings. It is very different than western way of life and thinking so it is interesting to sit and compare the two. Then I got into more modern religion like Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc - which all have similar or common stories, like the great flood in their religious texts.

In retrospect this same negative effect happens to all of us. We travel outside the USA and are immediately seen as arrogant dumb fat Americans, which isn't true. Not all of us are that way, its just some. Its like that old saying there is some truth to every rumor, so there is some truth to every stereotype but it is so small I think we lose sight of what people really are, which is people.

[Wingwiper]

Tlarkin

Very interesting Reply, thanks.

I only have one comment and it is a bit off the main topic, and I do hope you and Larry continue, I am interested in your debate and you have both brought up excellent points. Anyhow the comment I want to make is in reference to a comment you made and in the links you provided.

I see absolutely nothing illegal nor sinister about what either Bush has done to earn their money or what they do with their money. Bush Sr served and was shot down during WWI, so his family connections, if there were any then, didn't prevent him from his obligations, Bush Jr served in the Air Guard and did over 620 Active Duty Days in a 6 year obligation that would normally only require 90. Both served and if thy can make money after, good for them, I only wish I had made better decisions, I think we all do. Anyone is able to invest in Oil and anyone is able to take chances with their money and anyone can sell for a profit and Hey! if you have a position where you can LEGALLY benefit and you go through the BID processes, Great, I don't hate a guy for doing what every single one of us would do. All of it comes with a price and you can see how his family has been investigated, pried, gossiped about, bashed, had microscopes injected into every orifice and has been lied about, written about, critized, mocked, made fun of and just about anything else you can think of. I believe they are both good men and good Chirstians and I don't think a single person on this forum would have taken the crap, that family has. All I have to say... Sorry. He needs defending as well...... That was my EQUAL TIME.....

You have done well with your religous studies, it shows you didn't just read words.

As far as Afghanistan, yes! you are right, we were fighting the Russians thru Afghanistan. We are now being shot at with Russian made. It has always been in the best National Security to be sure a better side wins in a war, or the world may suffer. Sometimes the better side becomes worst than the enemy after. How many of our allies have turned out to be our enemies later? France who we have had 1000s of Americans die for their Liberation now speaks poorly about us, maybe their new President will be better. Germany from enemy to friendly to what was the FOOD FOR OIL all about?????? Russia from friendly to arch potential enemy. england from enemy to ally, Canada from enemy to ally and so on and so on. It is always best to play the cards and hope for the best, not always will you win the hand, but.....

[tlarkin]

I think you may be confusing Bush Sr, with Prescott Bush (gramps) who served in WWI, and had Nazi business ties during and after WWI. Now trading was not illegal until after the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and even then there are documents that show business between the Bush family and the Nazi part all the way up to 1951. They are in my mind, war criminals. A lot of their fortune came from that, then they invested in oil and in the 80s Al Qaeda were in our country, in Texas meeting with the Bush family about piping oil through Afghanistan. It was not illegal to do business with them either. However the Bush family managed to keep it very low key. Both the FBI and the CIA wanted information on these business partners but found it hard to get past all the red tape in Washington, put there by the Oil Industry lobbyists. The Nazis had over $3 million in assets in a bank in NY City during WWII and that investing/bank firm was one of the largest backers of the Nazi party and though it was illegal to trade with them until after Pearl Harbor when Harry S Truman passed the Trading with the Enemy Act, which then made it completely illegal.

So, what does this all mean? Well, it means that for one our foreign policy on war is more about profit than anything else. It also means that the Bush family had business ties with Nazis even after they weren't suppose to. Also they had business ties with known terrorist networks in the late 70s early 80s who may not have been a threat at the time to us directly but it peaked the interest of both the CIA and the FBI, and neither organization could get close to either of them because they were protected by big business in Washington. You can dress it up and call it whatever you want but trading with the enemy is trading with the enemy in my eye. There is also controversy of what happened to several other million dollars that went missing from Swiss banks that the Nazis also had investments in, those are also linked to other American banking/investing firms.

When I say that our government is completely about self interest I am talking about our government during any time. Peace or war. Big business has its hands all over it and it because of many factors. The media does not give fair coverage to all candidates at all running for office, so campaigning becomes very expensive, and no politician wants to run for office out of pocket. Those that have (Ross Perot) regret it because of the money wasted in the process. Since we only have 2 political parties (yeah you can count the others if you want, but when it comes down to it, we have 2 with money and backing) that have any money in their organizations to begin with if you want to get into politics you are either a donkey or an elephant end of story. We don't have any other choice, it is an illusion that we do.

This indirectly goes back to my thoughts (and yes I am not stating a bunch of facts, well some facts, but its biased with my opinion) on how war is ran in this country. We dress it up, we contrive plans with underlying foreign business involved, we then also point a finger at someone who we can't catch and who is a threat to everything we stand and live for. They are pulling the wool over our eyes and they are already building a business infrastructure over there for our profit. Why do you think they are willing to pay private military personnel $250k per a year straight up cash? Why for all the huge contracts rebuilding infrastructure for big business?

Yes, Iraq is in chaos and there are 4 main groups of people trying to kill each other. Is there a right answer? No, there is no right answer. However, when our foreign policy is for our own personal gain of the wealthy elite it makes me sick. This is my problem with the war and the media and everyone else portraying the Muslims as evil people while certain elite rich few make more money.

Why do we have this common idea that all Muslims are radical and that we are at a Jihad? When in fact its from a small part of the Qar'an, and the fact that small Terrorist Cells are declaring Jihad it is not recognized by any major figure from the Islamic Church, how can we make these assumptions? Where does this common knowledge come from? How are we getting these perceptions? I hear it all the time at work, in social environments, from family members. They say things like, "those people", "Terrorists", "muslim extremists" "Jihad" and have no idea what they are talking about.

references:

Bush-Nazi Link Confirmed Documents in National Archives Prove George W. Bush's Grandfather Traded with Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power | World news | The Guardian

Bush Hitler Nazi Death Camp Connections -- Bush Family History featuring Nazi collaborator Prescott Bush

GeorgeWalkerBush.net - Bush-Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951

Again, these are just my opinions, so don't hold it against me personally everyone is allowed their own opinion and I respect that right for everyone.

[Brother Bob]

Nuke the bastids and let God sort it out! While we sit behind our keyboards debating the merits of this war and wringing our hands, they are planning for our demise! We know what we're up against and I don't believe it will take too many more attacks on European or American soil before a red button is pushed and millions of those goat f...ers find Allah! It's Saturday night, I'm tired and I'd kill one of those Muslim m.f's just for 8 hours of uninterupted sleep! Between the dogs and the grandkids, I'm about to declare "jihad" on something! LOL! Brother Bob

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

Nuke the bastids and let God sort it out! While we sit behind our keyboards debating the merits of this war and wringing our hands, they are planning for our demise! We know what we're up against and I don't believe it will take too many more attacks on European or American soil before a red button is pushed and millions of those goat f...ers find Allah! It's Saturday night, I'm tired and I'd kill one of those Muslim m.f's just for 8 hours of uninterupted sleep! Between the dogs and the grandkids, I'm about to declare "jihad" on something! LOL! Brother Bob

OK, logically please explain to me how 4 hijacked airplanes got through NORAD, please tell me why this happened? NORAD has had 64 or so missions in the past and has 100% success rate on every mission. How did they fail 4 times on 9/11, how did that happen? Please let me know because I want to blame the terrorist and I want to know that we are safe and sound in our own country. There is nothing more that I want than can assure me we are safe and sound in our own nation living our lives. How did this happen? If there is one thing I have faith in, it is in our military. They are the most elite forces in the world and I would trust a marine before I would trust most people, in fact all people when it came down to a survival situation. Please tell me how some mountain people in a terrorist cell were able to accomplish everything they did, with out outside help or inside information. NORAD is something not to be trifled with and our armed forces that work with NORAD are highly skilled and trained. Given their track record of a 100% success rate how did they fail on 9/11?

Please provide some evidence that some terrorist cell with less funding than our own military and on top of that with less training and less skills fooled our own national defense system?

I am seriously wanting to believe they accomplished it to put beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are the enemy and we are fighting a war that is not about corporate gain and personal profit. I hope to god, no I pray that there is a god that makes this true. That we really are fighting a true evil, because I have my doubts but I really truly want to believe. There is nothing at this point in time that provides any evidence that this is what it is.

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

I think you may be confusing Bush Sr, with Prescott Bush (gramps) who served in WWI, and had Nazi business ties during and after WWI. Now trading was not illegal until after the attacks on Pearl Harbor, and even then there are documents that show business between the Bush family and the Nazi part all the way up to 1951. They are in my mind, war criminals. A lot of their fortune came from that, then they invested in oil and in the 80s Al Qaeda were in our country, in Texas meeting with the Bush family about piping oil through Afghanistan. It was not illegal to do business with them either. However the Bush family managed to keep it very low key. Both the FBI and the CIA wanted information on these business partners but found it hard to get past all the red tape in Washington, put there by the Oil Industry lobbyists. The Nazis had over $3 million in assets in a bank in NY City during WWII and that investing/bank firm was one of the largest backers of the Nazi party and though it was illegal to trade with them until after Pearl Harbor when Harry S Truman passed the Trading with the Enemy Act, which then made it completely illegal.

So, what does this all mean? Well, it means that for one our foreign policy on war is more about profit than anything else. It also means that the Bush family had business ties with Nazis even after they weren't suppose to. Also they had business ties with known terrorist networks in the late 70s early 80s who may not have been a threat at the time to us directly but it peaked the interest of both the CIA and the FBI, and neither organization could get close to either of them because they were protected by big business in Washington. You can dress it up and call it whatever you want but trading with the enemy is trading with the enemy in my eye. There is also controversy of what happened to several other million dollars that went missing from Swiss banks that the Nazis also had investments in, those are also linked to other American banking/investing firms.

When I say that our government is completely about self interest I am talking about our government during any time. Peace or war. Big business has its hands all over it and it because of many factors. The media does not give fair coverage to all candidates at all running for office, so campaigning becomes very expensive, and no politician wants to run for office out of pocket. Those that have (Ross Perot) regret it because of the money wasted in the process. Since we only have 2 political parties (yeah you can count the others if you want, but when it comes down to it, we have 2 with money and backing) that have any money in their organizations to begin with if you want to get into politics you are either a donkey or an elephant end of story. We don't have any other choice, it is an illusion that we do.

This indirectly goes back to my thoughts (and yes I am not stating a bunch of facts, well some facts, but its biased with my opinion) on how war is ran in this country. We dress it up, we contrive plans with underlying foreign business involved, we then also point a finger at someone who we can't catch and who is a threat to everything we stand and live for. They are pulling the wool over our eyes and they are already building a business infrastructure over there for our profit. Why do you think they are willing to pay private military personnel $250k per a year straight up cash? Why for all the huge contracts rebuilding infrastructure for big business?

Yes, Iraq is in chaos and there are 4 main groups of people trying to kill each other. Is there a right answer? No, there is no right answer. However, when our foreign policy is for our own personal gain of the wealthy elite it makes me sick. This is my problem with the war and the media and everyone else portraying the Muslims as evil people while certain elite rich few make more money.

Why do we have this common idea that all Muslims are radical and that we are at a Jihad? When in fact its from a small part of the Qar'an, and the fact that small Terrorist Cells are declaring Jihad it is not recognized by any major figure from the Islamic Church, how can we make these assumptions? Where does this common knowledge come from? How are we getting these perceptions? I hear it all the time at work, in social environments, from family members. They say things like, "those people", "Terrorists", "muslim extremists" "Jihad" and have no idea what they are talking about.

references:

Bush-Nazi Link Confirmed Documents in National Archives Prove George W. Bush's Grandfather Traded with Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power | World news | The Guardian

Bush Hitler Nazi Death Camp Connections -- Bush Family History featuring Nazi collaborator Prescott Bush

GeorgeWalkerBush.net - Bush-Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951

Again, these are just my opinions, so don't hold it against me personally everyone is allowed their own opinion and I respect that right for everyone.

Your links are probably written by Bush hating Liberals..

I went to them and they are filled with fallacies and generalizations. Several start off almost word for word, "Newly Discovered files"... So let them share the source of the files so we all can read them and not have someone interrupt when they supposedly said. Let us read them for ourselves and we will be able to draw our own conclusions. They should be Public Domain, so have these links provide the files.
Let's see these NEWLY DISCOVERED FILES.

There are NO Bush Family Connections to the Nazi Concentration camps or to Hitler or to the Nazi War machine. When you actually read the facts it is very comical how these fools can call it a link.. It is about as much of a link as I am to Adam and Eve, very very very remotely and by multiple levels removed. It would be SAFER to say that Mother's Milk leads to Heroine.

This is such a New and silly rumor that even SNOPES hasn't got wind of it yet.
Do a google on Prescott Bush and read, there are tons of links.

Prescott Bush - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The order cited only the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Bush was a director and held one share, which had connections with a Dutch bank owned by Thyssen."

There are many many sites that address that Nazi Controversy and until facts are presented to be CLEAR and Cocise I can only think it is just plain B.S.

Had this really Been true, the Democrats would have thrown that out during the First Bush Election Campaigns. They didn't and no trace of this has ever surfaced on any Democrat News Media such as CNN.

President Bush Sr served in World War II as a Naval Aviator and was in combat. No confusion on my part.

If you are going to say that the Bush family had terrorist ties? What ties did they have? Many of bin Laden extended family lives here in the U.S., Bin himself went to school here. Are you saying that the family of Charles Mason are as guilty as Charles? Are you saying that if i do business with Timothy McViegh's family I am supporting a terrorist family? BIN LADEN is the TERRORIST and not his family. That is pure Bullsh-- to even insinuate that the Bush family had terrorists ties.

Tlarkin, you are a man of wisdom and you have read the religious books well and can put a fairly decent debate about the Qu'ran and the bible etc. Be the same about Politics, if you are going to debate politics, get defined sources and legitimate references and attack with what is precieved facts by notable sources. Please do not slander a family or a person over second rate websites that offer hysteria and garbage as their facts. The real facts are there to read and anyone has access to them and if ONE SHARE of stock in a bank that does business with a bank that knows this guy who is related to that guy is a tie, fine.

Research the Bush family an address your concerns and then present them. Thank You

[Windwalker]

You all three have made good points and asked good questions. I hope someone with more information than I have can answer some of them for us.

[billy]

shouldnt this be in the politics section?

and yes you have to be a dues paying member to go there

[SwedeSteve]

^ +1

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Your links are probably written by Bush hating Liberals..

Sure most likely, I'll agree to that.

I went to them and they are filled with fallacies and generalizations. Several start off almost word for word, "Newly Discovered files"... So let them share the source of the files so we all can read them and not have someone interrupt when they supposedly said. Let us read them for ourselves and we will be able to draw our own conclusions. They should be Public Domain, so have these links provide the files.
Let's see these NEWLY DISCOVERED FILES.

Yes, but we do some some facts. We do know that in the early 1930s Hitler was in the Oil business, and had met with many many people in the Middle east about oil. Then we have Grandpa Bush, who held investments in a company that was a front for Nazi Germany. It is a very extreme coincidence don't you think?

There are NO Bush Family Connections to the Nazi Concentration camps or to Hitler or to the Nazi War machine. When you actually read the facts it is very comical how these fools can call it a link.. It is about as much of a link as I am to Adam and Eve, very very very remotely and by multiple levels removed. It would be SAFER to say that Mother's Milk leads to Heroine.

This is such a New and silly rumor that even SNOPES hasn't got wind of it yet.
Do a google on Prescott Bush and read, there are tons of links.

Prescott Bush - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The order cited only the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Bush was a director and held one share, which had connections with a Dutch bank owned by Thyssen."

There are many many sites that address that Nazi Controversy and until facts are presented to be CLEAR and Cocise I can only think it is just plain B.S.

Had this really Been true, the Democrats would have thrown that out during the First Bush Election Campaigns. They didn't and no trace of this has ever surfaced on any Democrat News Media such as CNN.

President Bush Sr served in World War II as a Naval Aviator and was in combat. No confusion on my part.

I never said they had direct ties to the war, but profited from the war. What happens to a countries assets when they are conquered? People who profit and rob from that are war criminals. The Jews that made money off of WWII by selling out other jews, then once blood hit the streets and property was stolen they bought it all up very cheap. I am not calling them terrorists, but opportunists that do some very amoral things, at best during a time of war. The Bush family simply saw an opportunity, which I think is morally wrong and they went with it. I just find it strange that they had ties to both Germany and to the Middle East right before a time of war. Don't you find that strange? My point is not to call the Bush family a bunch of Nazi's that would be absurd, my point is to have everyone think about our foreign policy, and how war can be twisted into many things, but have ulterior motives to further big business and line the pockets of business and the politicians in the business's pocket. I want everyone to evaluate how our country operates, and how we let the rich control our lives and we don't even know it.

If you are going to say that the Bush family had terrorist ties? What ties did they have? Many of bin Laden extended family lives here in the U.S., Bin himself went to school here. Are you saying that the family of Charles Mason are as guilty as Charles? Are you saying that if i do business with Timothy McViegh's family I am supporting a terrorist family? BIN LADEN is the TERRORIST and not his family. That is pure Bullsh-- to even insinuate that the Bush family had terrorists ties.

No, and I hate those ads that say if you buy drugs you are supporting terrorism and I hate everything that tries to scare monger you into one thing or another. If anything Oil supports terrorism and we should all just find an alternative right? After 9/11 Bin Laden was in an American hospital in Dubai, and we knew about it, yet we did nothing. Why has he not been brought in to justice? Why have we not got him yet? With all of our resources, technology, money, and military we should have been able to track him, find him, bribe our way to him, or corner him so bad he would have to surrender. It doesn't make any sense. They have never released any information on the terrorists behind 9/11, they covered up the pentagon pretty damn quickly with gravel and sand, oh and the most jacked up part is that normally NORAD has an on average 10 minute response time. That day they just happened to be running a terrorist hijacking war game, of a scenario where 4 planes were hijacked. NORAD was confused and did not know what was real world and what was war game, which dropped their response time to 90 minutes. We are talking about a defense section of our government with a 100% mission success rate and over 64 missions flown escorting down hijacked or foreign planes. Yet on 9/11 they failed 4 times in a row. Dick Cheney was in charge of NORAD that day. This same tactic was used in a London train bombing. Some terrorists blew up the trains on the exact same day British intelligence was running a war game, and guess what, it was a war game that simulated trains being bombed. It created the same confusion.

Tlarkin, you are a man of wisdom and you have read the religious books well and can put a fairly decent debate about the Qu'ran and the bible etc. Be the same about Politics, if you are going to debate politics, get defined sources and legitimate references and attack with what is precieved facts by notable sources. Please do not slander a family or a person over second rate websites that offer hysteria and garbage as their facts. The real facts are there to read and anyone has access to them and if ONE SHARE of stock in a bank that does business with a bank that knows this guy who is related to that guy is a tie, fine.

Research the Bush family an address your concerns and then present them. Thank You

Well, I have done my fair share of reading up on the Bush family, and first off I have a bias, I don't like any of them. I know that their dealings with oil companies have been shady, their government practices have furthered their own self interest in big business and brought them even more money. Jeb passed a state legislature in Florida right before the 2004 election abolishing the right for convicted felons to vote, which only a few states actually have this law. Once you do your time you are considered rehabilitated, and all of your rights are restored, as they should be. This was pushed through from a lobbyist group in Texas, hmm. To top it all off that same lobbyist group was also requesting that all other states help run background checks on anyone with similar names and social security numbers of those of convicted felons and those votes should be counted null and void. Now all the poor people, who yes poor people are typically the convicted felons not the rich, made up a very high Democratic population, high enough to actually make Florida pretty much a Democratic state. How is this not shady? How is this not seem like they are trying to regulate our election process? That is taking away our right, and yes I vote every damn election. I am also a registered Independent if any of you are thinking I am a Democrat lover, I dislike them as well, Republicans just rub we the wrong way more I think. Most likely because Democrats are passive aggressive while Republicans are just straight up about it.


Now, how is all of this relevant? This all goes back to why are we sitting here debating things like Muslim Terrorists, Jihad, fear that we could be attacked at any time, yet no one has answered our questions about 9/11, President Bush and Cheney refused to have separate interviews to the 9/11 committee. Dick Cheney refused to release information about his office because he claimed that the VP was not part of the executive branch, which it is, which what he did is illegal. We haven't addressed our energy crisis, our economy, or our falling education or health care. We still have the illusion that everything will be fine as long as we fight these Muslims who claim Jihad on us. If I sat here and quoted the Bible on how many times God reigned down his wrath on mankind and killed people out of fear it would parallel a lot of what Muhammad said. Yet we have this invisible man named Osama Bin Laden who can strike us down at any time with suicide bombers, so we should go out there and unite and forget everything else that is messed up with our country? What does Europe do? They have dealt with terrorism a lot longer than we have and they have never declared war on anyone like we have, oh wait, I misspoke we never even actually declared war. Which I thought wasn't suppose to happen anymore.

How did these terrorist cells that live in mountains, and have little access to technology gain the training and the financial backing to infiltrate the USA, and let alone extract military top secret information to able to accomplish what they did? I think all of us deserve to know the truth about everything. I am not saying that terrorist are not behind it, but why do they keep refusing to let us know? Why do all we hear is misinformation about muslim radicals and things like gay marriage, or how some celebrity did something stupid, or sex tape scandals? When at the same time we have serious issues here on our soil that are not being addressed. Just ask yourself that. I think we all learned a lesson from Hurricane Katrina, did we not? What happens when we run out of resources, or our economy fails and we have a nation wide Katrina?

[billy]

Originally Posted by billy

shouldnt this be in the politics section?

and yes you have to be a dues paying member to go there

!

[LarryO1970]

tlarkin, your statement "How did these terrorist cells that live in mountains, and have little access to technology gain the training and the financial backing to infiltrate the USA, and let alone extract military top secret information to able to accomplish what they did? I think all of us deserve to know the truth about everything. I am not saying that terrorist are not behind it, but why do they keep refusing to let us know? Why do all we hear is misinformation about muslim radicals and things like gay marriage, or how some celebrity did something stupid, or sex tape scandals? When at the same time we have serious issues here on our soil that are not being addressed. Just ask yourself that. I think we all learned a lesson from Hurricane Katrina, did we not? What happens when we run out of resources, or our economy fails and we have a nation wide Katrina?" can be easily answered.

Ask a Democrat, they know everything and have a plan for everything. They control the media (for the most part) so there is the reason why these is so much coverage of these Hollywood types who are crashing & burning while there is little to no coverage of the good that is being done in Iraq.The Democrats are all about gay marriage and misinformation... see Bill & Hillary Klinton. The Klinton's are all about anything and everything anti-gun and would support a gun-grab after another Katrina in a heartbeat. Do this ... compare anti's vs. pro gun by political affiliation... what do you get?