‘Our Country Is in Trouble’

LarryO1970 · 02-14-2008, 12:24 PM

Michael Scheuer is a worried man—and an angry one. He's worried by what he regards as the United States's failure to devise a successful strategy against Osama bin Laden and angered by what he sees as the political timidity behind that failure. Scheuer has a claim to be heard. He was a CIA officer for almost 20 years. In the 1980s he was involved in the arming of the Afghan mujahedin against the Soviets. For much of the 1990s he ran the team hunting for Osama bin Laden. In 2004 he quit the CIA to write a book titled "Imperial Hubris," an account of years of Western failure to take seriously the growing threat of Islamist terrorism. Now Scheuer has written a new book, "Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq." He spoke with NEWSWEEK'S John Barry about it. Excerpts:

NEWSWEEK: Why did you write this new book?
Michael Scheuer: Because I think our country is in trouble. The enemy we are facing, Osama bin Laden and the movement he heads, is much more dangerous than anyone gives him credit for. Much smarter, much more talented, and now increasingly recruiting a new generation that's better educated, not just in school terms but in operational and especially technological ways. We defeated the swashbucklers. The Errol Flynns of the jihad are gone; they're about to go on trial in Guantánamo. Now we have the gray-suited fellows who are quiet, don't draw attention to themselves, but are tremendously savvy.

Have we underestimated Osama bin Laden?
I think there is tremendous racism in our response to bin Laden. He wears a beard and a robe and lives in a cave. (I doubt that's true, by the way. It's the made-for-Hollywood version.) So we dismiss him. But it is just extraordinary to treat your enemy as an idiot, especially when you are losing two wars to him, and when our director of national intelligence is warning that Al Qaeda is rebuilt, refitted and stronger than ever.

We've been fighting bin Laden for longer than we fought World War II. Why haven't we won?
Because our political elite do not want to level with the American people about the real reasons why bin Laden hates and opposes us. Our leaders say he and his followers hate us because of who we are, because we have early primaries in Iowa every four years and allow women in the workplace. That's nonsense. I don't think he would have those things in his country. But that's not why he opposes us. I read bin Laden's writings and I take him at his word. He and his followers hate us because of specific aspects of U.S. foreign policy. Bin Laden lays them out for anyone to read. Six elements: our unqualified support for Israel; our presence on the Arabian peninsula, which is land they deem holy; our military presence in other Islamic countries; our support of foreign states that oppress Muslims, especially Russia, China and India; our long-term policy of keeping oil prices artificially low to the benefit of Western consumers but the detriment of the Arab people; and our support for Arab tyrannies who will do that.

You say bin Laden has laid all this out. But one doesn't hear discussion of this in the current presidential campaign.
I've come to the conclusion that it's just too inconvenient for our political class. It's much easier to tell Americans that crazy people are after you and tomorrow morning your daughter is going to have to go to school in a burqa. And we have so few people, even now, with real expertise in the Arab world. In the year 9/11 happened, there were three Ph.D.s awarded that bore on Arab affairs. Three, in the whole country. One was in Islamic architecture. One was in Islamic poetry. The third was in Islamic history. And things haven't gotten a lot better since. We are still not building the intellectual capital we need. In the cold war did we say, "We really don't need to understand what Marx or Lenin or Stalin wrote because they are just gangsters, not smart men, just nihilists, and we can beat them because we are the good guys"? No. We built, with government money, institutions to study the Soviet Union. But almost nothing comparable is being done now. The effort is tiny. And more often than not you find that the outfits we do have are funded by Saudi money. Which means there are real constraints on what they can say. So I read in the National Review or the Weekly Standard about Osama bin Laden being a gangster or an idiot or both. But I have to tell you there is a touch of genius here. To pick the six elements of U.S. foreign policy that are most entwined with our domestic politics is a great piece of analysis. Because it makes frank debate so tough.

And if we don't have that debate?
Look, we have a political class in this country that lives and dies by polls. They don't go to the john without looking the polls. Well, polls tell us that in the Muslim world somewhere around 75 to 80 percent agree with Osama bin Laden that American foreign policy is meant to undermine or destroy Islam. Now, nowhere near that percentage is going to pick up an AK-47. But how many does it take to cause you a problem? Osama bin Laden is, in some sense, talking about a war of liberation. And it is true that for 50 years we have supported tyrannies that have oppressed Muslims, tyrannies with strong fascist elements. We hear a lot of talk about "Islamofascists." Yes, there's a lot of them out there. And they're all on our side. They're in Riyadh, Amman, Kuwait City, Cairo. Even Bernard Lewis, the patron saint of our neocons, has written that the governments that rule Muslims are basically [practicing] European fascism adapted to the sand … We can continue the current course of American foreign policy, but we need to realize that over time this may involve us in sending troops to fight on every continent as new generations of young Muslims sign up under the Al Qaeda banner. The candidates in the presidential campaign are talking about reviving jobs and wages and moving toward universal health care. None of that is going to be possible if this country is involved in some generation-long struggle with millions of Muslims. My own view is that it's more sensible to confront the fact that our foreign policies toward the Arab world [add up to] the one indispensable ally Osama bin Laden has.

Need he say more?

Windwalker · 02-14-2008, 12:55 PM

What would be our best strategy?

LarryO1970 · 02-14-2008, 01:00 PM

If I knew that ... I'd be a billionaire.

Personally... I'm prepared to defend our country as a civilian too. I really doubt the Al Qaeda brain trust believes the people of this country would pick up arms and fight back. There are enough Veterans, active duty military and patriots who would become minutemen in a heartbeat should little Osama try anything stupid on our soil.

Given the fact I ate a car bomb in Saudi Arabia in 1996... I know the kind of people these are. They understand one thing only... and it is force. Diplomacy is seen as a weakness.

If I had a say in anything (which of course, I do not) I would say to unleash the dogs of war. Let the SEALS, Delta, Force Recon and other nasties of our military out to play with their toys in a very unrestricted way.

Wingwiper · 02-14-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Michael Scheuer is a worried man—and an angry one. He's worried by what he regards as the United States's failure to devise a successful strategy against Osama bin Laden and angered by what he sees as the political timidity behind that failure. Scheuer has a claim to be heard. He was a CIA officer for almost 20 years. In the 1980s he was involved in the arming of the Afghan mujahedin against the Soviets. For much of the 1990s he ran the team hunting for Osama bin Laden. In 2004 he quit the CIA to write a book titled "Imperial Hubris," an account of years of Western failure to take seriously the growing threat of Islamist terrorism. Now Scheuer has written a new book, "Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq." He spoke with NEWSWEEK'S John Barry about it. Excerpts:

I beleive Bin has been dead since Tora Bora, we made Dinasaurs appear in Jurasic Park and they can make Bin appear in videos.

NEWSWEEK: Why did you write this new book?
Michael Scheuer: Because I think our country is in trouble. The enemy we are facing, Osama bin Laden and the movement he heads, is much more dangerous than anyone gives him credit for. Much smarter, much more talented, and now increasingly recruiting a new generation that's better educated, not just in school terms but in operational and especially technological ways. We defeated the swashbucklers. The Errol Flynns of the jihad are gone; they're about to go on trial in Guantánamo. Now we have the gray-suited fellows who are quiet, don't draw attention to themselves, but are tremendously savvy.

Hardly, giving way too much credit to idiots. How many times have them been busted before they even had a chance to execute their plans??

Have we underestimated Osama bin Laden?
I think there is tremendous racism in our response to bin Laden. He wears a beard and a robe and lives in a cave. (I doubt that's true, by the way. It's the made-for-Hollywood version.) So we dismiss him. But it is just extraordinary to treat your enemy as an idiot, especially when you are losing two wars to him, and when our director of national intelligence is warning that Al Qaeda is rebuilt, refitted and stronger than ever.

We are not fighting a war against Bin, we have but ONE war and that is on Terrorists and all countries who support them. The ONE war currently has TWO main fronts.

We've been fighting bin Laden for longer than we fought World War II. Why haven't we won?
Because our political elite do not want to level with the American people about the real reasons why bin Laden hates and opposes us. Our leaders say he and his followers hate us because of who we are, because we have early primaries in Iowa every four years and allow women in the workplace. That's nonsense. I don't think he would have those things in his country. But that's not why he opposes us. I read bin Laden's writings and I take him at his word. He and his followers hate us because of specific aspects of U.S. foreign policy.What should be changed and why? Bin Laden lays them out for anyone to read. Six elements: our unqualified support for Israel; OK! so do we leave Isreal to the Vultures? our presence on the Arabian peninsula, which is land they deem holy; Are they NOT in our land too? Do they hold the copyright on areas of the Earth? Are we not allowed to enure the basic freedoms of life to people EVERYWHERE? our military presence in other Islamic countries; Their bombing throughout the world, their terrorists acts through the world and who are they to tell us or anyone where they can go? our support of foreign states that oppress Muslims, I too, am beginning to want to oppress muslims. especially Russia, China and India; OUR support of these countries who would go to war with us in a hearbeat for what we disagree on?? Insane.. our long-term policy of keeping oil prices artificially low to the benefit of Western consumers but the detriment of the Arab people; We do not control pricing, we are a consumer and if they want to sell to us they have to sell at a price we are willing to pay, that is what Market Demand does. The people do not benefit when they are starving and deprived of basic human dignity. and our support for Arab tyrannies who will do that. WHo? and for what reasons?

You say bin Laden has laid all this out. But one doesn't hear discussion of this in the current presidential campaign.
I've come to the conclusion that it's just too inconvenient for our political class. It's much easier to tell Americans that crazy people are after you and tomorrow morning your daughter is going to have to go to school in a burqa. And we have so few people, even now, with real expertise in the Arab world. In the year 9/11 happened, there were three Ph.D.s awarded that bore on Arab affairs. Three, in the whole country. One was in Islamic architecture. One was in Islamic poetry. The third was in Islamic history. And things haven't gotten a lot better since. We are still not building the intellectual capital we need. In the cold war did we say, "We really don't need to understand what Marx or Lenin or Stalin wrote because they are just gangsters, not smart men, just nihilists, and we can beat them because we are the good guys"? No. We built, with government money, institutions to study the Soviet Union. But almost nothing comparable is being done now. The effort is tiny. And more often than not you find that the outfits we do have are funded by Saudi money. Which means there are real constraints on what they can say. So I read in the National Review or the Weekly Standard about Osama bin Laden being a gangster or an idiot or both. But I have to tell you there is a touch of genius here. To pick the six elements of U.S. foreign policy that are most entwined with our domestic politics is a great piece of analysis. Because it makes frank debate so tough.

And if we don't have that debate?
Look, we have a political class in this country that lives and dies by polls. They don't go to the john without looking the polls. Well, polls tell us that in the Muslim world somewhere around 75 to 80 percent agree with Osama bin Laden that American foreign policy is meant to undermine or destroy Islam. Now, nowhere near that percentage is going to pick up an AK-47. But how many does it take to cause you a problem? Osama bin Laden is, in some sense, talking about a war of liberation. And it is true that for 50 years we have supported tyrannies that have oppressed Muslims, tyrannies with strong fascist elements. We hear a lot of talk about "Islamofascists." Yes, there's a lot of them out there. And they're all on our side. They're in Riyadh, Amman, Kuwait City, Cairo. Even Bernard Lewis, the patron saint of our neocons, has written that the governments that rule Muslims are basically [practicing] European fascism adapted to the sand … We can continue the current course of American foreign policy, but we need to realize that over time this may involve us in sending troops to fight on every continent as new generations of young Muslims sign up under the Al Qaeda banner. The candidates in the presidential campaign are talking about reviving jobs and wages and moving toward universal health care. None of that is going to be possible if this country is involved in some generation-long struggle with millions of Muslims. My own view is that it's more sensible to confront the fact that our foreign policies toward the Arab world [add up to] the one indispensable ally Osama bin Laden has.

Need he say more?

He needs to have a more accuration premise before he draws any kind of conclusion.

LarryO1970 · 02-14-2008, 01:15 PM

Wingwiper ... I'm not here to argue with you and I'm not about to.

If you want to judge the credibility of this former CIA officer who dealt with these people, be my guest. God knows that you apparently know more than he does.

On a personal note, have you ever had any dealings with these people? I have, it was a bad situation and I agree with him because I know where he is coming from.

tlarkin · 02-14-2008, 01:16 PM

I think our huge lack of understanding the Muslim and middle eastern cultures would be a start. Learn as much as we can about their way of life and how and why they may hate us.

LarryO1970 · 02-14-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin

I think our huge lack of understanding the Muslim and middle eastern cultures would be a start. Learn as much as we can about their way of life and how and why they may hate us.

You are most correct there. The Arabs do not want us in their land, it is a religious thing, period. We are there, they hate us. Simple cause and effect.

There is more to it... but I'm not really in the mood for a religious argument. We are not Muslims... therefore infidels. They are taught by the Koran to kill infidels.

Wingwiper ... are you going to tell me I am wrong?

tlarkin · 02-14-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

You are most correct there. The Arabs do not want us in their land, it is a religious thing, period. We are there, they hate us. Simple cause and effect.

There is more to it... but I'm not really in the mood for a religious argument.

Wouldn't you think its more about foreign policy over religion, not all muslims are extremist and there are many different sects. Now their culture is definitely driven by religion, but that is the whole middle east. We get along with the Jews, and even the PLO these days (at times). So, why can't we communicate with them?

I'd hate to turn this into a debate, but I think it is because of the oil companies and their drive to get every last drop of oil out of the middle east.

LarryO1970 · 02-14-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlarkin

Wouldn't you think its more about foreign policy over religion, not all muslims are extremist and there are many different sects. Now their culture is definitely driven by religion, but that is the whole middle east. We get along with the Jews, and even the PLO these days (at times). So, why can't we communicate with them?

I'd hate to turn this into a debate, but I think it is because of the oil companies and their drive to get every last drop of oil out of the middle east.

No, not all Muslims are extremists, I agree there. What does the Koran say to do to infidels?

Orders to Kill Infidels

Q3.119: Lo! you are they who will love them while they do not love you, and you believe in the Book (in) the whole of it; and when they meet you they say: We believe, and when they are alone, they bite the ends of their fingers in rage against you. Say: Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what is in the breasts.

Q9.14: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

Q2.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you . . .

Q2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Clearly, this enmity with infidels, and the instructions to kill them, are boldly written in the Koran.

The Koran is also highly political in its advice to the followers of Allah:

Q9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Bible), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Obviously, the Koran teaches that Islam will someday rule the world. At that time all infidels who do not convert will be in a state of subjection, i.e., slaughtered.

Q8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Can you see why Muslim fundamentalists feel justified in decapitating all who oppose them?

Q8.13: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle -- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

Q8.14: This -- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.

Q8.15: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.

This is a specific command for warfare against the infidel. Muslims are not to flee in the face of such military action.

Q8.16: And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day -- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company -- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.

The intensity of Allah, and the Koran, in rejecting all unbelievers (infidels) is without precedent in religious history.

... enough of that crap.

I am certain that the oil issue has it's place... but honestly, I think the largest problem is the religion.

You need to know your enemies better than your friends.

tlarkin · 02-14-2008, 02:00 PM

Larry,

I have read the Qur'an and own a copy of it at home. Its on my bookshelf. I can pull quotes from all religious texts, including christianity that parallel the same sayings. Jesus in some parts of the bible talks about carrying weapons and preparing to kill if necessary, and of course there is war, and all kinds of violence in the bible. The problem is not the religion, it is how you interpret it. The people that are the fundamentalists are the ones interpreting it in a way to make their own political beliefs a reality. We have it here in the USA, remember Jerry Fallwell, that guy was insane, and he believed in some messed up stuff, and he had followers - and they bombed abortion clinics. They really believed they were doing the work of God.

Islam is still relatively new as far as religions go as well.

If you want to quote religion all day about the violence related to it, we would never ever talk about anything else in this thread.

LarryO1970 · 02-14-2008, 02:03 PM

Very good point.

Windwalker · 02-14-2008, 03:38 PM

I'm sorry but any religion who orders its followers to kill all who don't conform to that religion must be considered by me to be my enemies. Threatening me and mine with death requires me to try to neutralize your threat any way possible. There is no middle ground here.

tlarkin · 02-14-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windwalker

I'm sorry but any religion who orders its followers to kill all who don't conform to that religion must be considered by me to be my enemies. Threatening me and mine with death requires me to try to neutralize your threat any way possible. There is no middle ground here.

Just curious, how many muslim fundamentalist are threating your way of life in Oklahoma? Again, its not the religion it is the fundamentalists, because all religions have people like that. There are also 1.7 billion Muslims in the world, and only a very small percentage are in those fundamentalist groups.

nathangdad · 02-14-2008, 04:20 PM

We have as much or more to fear from the total ineptness and
incompetence of Bush, Rumsfeld, and Rice. They have left
America in a disasterous financial state for both the government
and the population which now has almost 1 trillion in non-mortgage
debt. Their attempt to make the population look away from
domestic issues with a war turned into a total failure for America and
a unification point for anti-American forces around the world.

We must pray for a President far beyond the capabilties of those
currently running for office.

mym1a · 02-14-2008, 04:45 PM

those who don't learn from history are destine to repeat it!we have troops in how many countries ??? I think we as a nation are to mired in political correctness to do what needs to be done, this is no reflection on the miltary they take orders from civilian leaders, and it appears to me that many are getting railroaded for having to make split decisions in the heat of battle>

Wingwiper · 02-14-2008, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Wingwiper ... I'm not here to argue with you and I'm not about to.

If you want to judge the credibility of this former CIA officer who dealt with these people, be my guest. God knows that you apparently know more than he does.

On a personal note, have you ever had any dealings with these people? I have, it was a bad situation and I agree with him because I know where he is coming from.

Larry

Nice reply to my post. And I am not going to argue with you. You picked a Public Forum to post a post from a guy who has a CIA background and by NO stretch of anyone's imagination had very limited access to the minds of the people he feels he knows so much about. Kinda like listening to the Election Polls. That does not make him an EXPERT only a CIA guy with an opinion. I do not understand what your experience or mine has to do with the CIA guy and his beleifs nor what you or I could have possibly learned with OUR experiences that would make us EXPERTS on howo to help these people. I wrote in RED what I found fault with in his ideas. Do I know more than he does? I wouldn't know how to measure it. He has an opinion and I have mine.

I beleive that the Muslims in MY country are treated fairly and equally. I do not beleive that even fellow Muslims treat each other fairly. I do not look at a woman as a piece of garbage that is to be thrown away when finished using. I do not beleive that any man has a right to decide the fate of any other INNOCENT human being as the Muslims so practice with their so called Justice system.

This CIA person is but ONE man with ONE opinion and I happen to not agree with it and I feel if you are posting it, then you are either ENDORSING it, or you are NOT and that does lead to a DEBATE, when people who read it may or may not as well. If you did NOT want a debate, you should have NOT posted it. Sorry, America is still a FREE COUNTRY.

Our leadership have many many EXPERTS that spend their days reading, observing, talking, learning and so much more than one man could possibly achived in 100 lifetimes. Fo rone man to think he has a solution to why Bin is anything is open for debate. It is said now that Bhutto was killed by Bin's son to establish respect so he can move into a leadership position.

I also do NOT recognize John McCain from being a POW is an expert enough to be a sound and good leader of my country. One man's experiences is not enough to lead by or to defend by, we are a Democracy where all people are duly represented.

mym1a · 02-14-2008, 05:05 PM

I don't know if I can say religion is evil? I think the way man manipulates religion for his own personal gain is were the true evil lies? with that said, I think the reason many people hate us is not only because of our policies but also their perception of us as seen in movies tv and the news media! I was born here and sometimes i'm sick with the nonsence I see on tv! and you wonder why so many hate us!!

Wingwiper · 02-14-2008, 07:09 PM

Look Lary, I am not trying to grandstand and by no means do I think I know more than anyone else.
I have lived in the U.S. for almost 60 years and been to alot of places etc and I am not an EXPERT in my own country. I do not know what makes a Jew tick nor a Mormon nor even a Amish, so how am I to know what makes Muslim tick? How can anyone after 20 years feel they know more than the people who lived there for centuries?

Do I agree they want to kill us, YES!

KNOWLEDGE REPLACES FEAR AS DOES EDUCATION WHICH IS KNOWLEDGE. We can educate these people as we are by building schools and offering them alternatives to Hate and Murder. We can solve alot of problems by allowing Human Rights to replace Hate. We can allow them to make decisions and choices for themselves, let them earn a paycheck and allow them to spend it as they chose.
people who have been offered Freedom and Liberty, usually choose not to surrender it. We can turn their hate around but we also must severe the head of the Snake that wants to destroy us.

elmer fudd · 02-14-2008, 07:41 PM

i dont know what the best thing to do is but keep hilery and oboma out of the house would be a start

mym1a · 02-14-2008, 07:50 PM

wingwiper In my opinion your statement about educating them is sincere how ever many of them are well educated especialy their leadership,I think one of their excuses is our presences in the middle east, some,more knowledgeble then me will suggest we should leave? maybe their right? my question is this, as long as they are not bothering us why should we change or influence any other country?the liberals in our own country are attempting to change our way of thinking, and when they do this it's usualy met with anger and resentment, If they want to live under religious law, so be it! as long as they aren't a threat to anyone but them selves? now we are there for better or worse, if we leave it will be preceived as a big win for the terrorist, I think many of the muslim world associate kindness as a form of weakness,hundreds of years ago the civilzed world fought this battle and from what I read it took a few ruthless leaders of that day to contain them, I doubt we as a society have the stomach to do what needs to be done,and will jeopardize the lives of millions to remain policialy correct.

02-14-2008, 12:24 PM	#1
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,873	‘Our Country Is in Trouble’ Michael Scheuer is a worried man—and an angry one. He's worried by what he regards as the United States's failure to devise a successful strategy against Osama bin Laden and angered by what he sees as the political timidity behind that failure. Scheuer has a claim to be heard. He was a CIA officer for almost 20 years. In the 1980s he was involved in the arming of the Afghan mujahedin against the Soviets. For much of the 1990s he ran the team hunting for Osama bin Laden. In 2004 he quit the CIA to write a book titled "Imperial Hubris," an account of years of Western failure to take seriously the growing threat of Islamist terrorism. Now Scheuer has written a new book, "Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq." He spoke with NEWSWEEK'S John Barry about it. Excerpts: NEWSWEEK: Why did you write this new book? Michael Scheuer: Because I think our country is in trouble. The enemy we are facing, Osama bin Laden and the movement he heads, is much more dangerous than anyone gives him credit for. Much smarter, much more talented, and now increasingly recruiting a new generation that's better educated, not just in school terms but in operational and especially technological ways. We defeated the swashbucklers. The Errol Flynns of the jihad are gone; they're about to go on trial in Guantánamo. Now we have the gray-suited fellows who are quiet, don't draw attention to themselves, but are tremendously savvy. Have we underestimated Osama bin Laden? I think there is tremendous racism in our response to bin Laden. He wears a beard and a robe and lives in a cave. (I doubt that's true, by the way. It's the made-for-Hollywood version.) So we dismiss him. But it is just extraordinary to treat your enemy as an idiot, especially when you are losing two wars to him, and when our director of national intelligence is warning that Al Qaeda is rebuilt, refitted and stronger than ever. We've been fighting bin Laden for longer than we fought World War II. Why haven't we won? Because our political elite do not want to level with the American people about the real reasons why bin Laden hates and opposes us. Our leaders say he and his followers hate us because of who we are, because we have early primaries in Iowa every four years and allow women in the workplace. That's nonsense. I don't think he would have those things in his country. But that's not why he opposes us. I read bin Laden's writings and I take him at his word. He and his followers hate us because of specific aspects of U.S. foreign policy. Bin Laden lays them out for anyone to read. Six elements: our unqualified support for Israel; our presence on the Arabian peninsula, which is land they deem holy; our military presence in other Islamic countries; our support of foreign states that oppress Muslims, especially Russia, China and India; our long-term policy of keeping oil prices artificially low to the benefit of Western consumers but the detriment of the Arab people; and our support for Arab tyrannies who will do that. You say bin Laden has laid all this out. But one doesn't hear discussion of this in the current presidential campaign. I've come to the conclusion that it's just too inconvenient for our political class. It's much easier to tell Americans that crazy people are after you and tomorrow morning your daughter is going to have to go to school in a burqa. And we have so few people, even now, with real expertise in the Arab world. In the year 9/11 happened, there were three Ph.D.s awarded that bore on Arab affairs. Three, in the whole country. One was in Islamic architecture. One was in Islamic poetry. The third was in Islamic history. And things haven't gotten a lot better since. We are still not building the intellectual capital we need. In the cold war did we say, "We really don't need to understand what Marx or Lenin or Stalin wrote because they are just gangsters, not smart men, just nihilists, and we can beat them because we are the good guys"? No. We built, with government money, institutions to study the Soviet Union. But almost nothing comparable is being done now. The effort is tiny. And more often than not you find that the outfits we do have are funded by Saudi money. Which means there are real constraints on what they can say. So I read in the National Review or the Weekly Standard about Osama bin Laden being a gangster or an idiot or both. But I have to tell you there is a touch of genius here. To pick the six elements of U.S. foreign policy that are most entwined with our domestic politics is a great piece of analysis. Because it makes frank debate so tough. And if we don't have that debate? Look, we have a political class in this country that lives and dies by polls. They don't go to the john without looking the polls. Well, polls tell us that in the Muslim world somewhere around 75 to 80 percent agree with Osama bin Laden that American foreign policy is meant to undermine or destroy Islam. Now, nowhere near that percentage is going to pick up an AK-47. But how many does it take to cause you a problem? Osama bin Laden is, in some sense, talking about a war of liberation. And it is true that for 50 years we have supported tyrannies that have oppressed Muslims, tyrannies with strong fascist elements. We hear a lot of talk about "Islamofascists." Yes, there's a lot of them out there. And they're all on our side. They're in Riyadh, Amman, Kuwait City, Cairo. Even Bernard Lewis, the patron saint of our neocons, has written that the governments that rule Muslims are basically [practicing] European fascism adapted to the sand … We can continue the current course of American foreign policy, but we need to realize that over time this may involve us in sending troops to fight on every continent as new generations of young Muslims sign up under the Al Qaeda banner. The candidates in the presidential campaign are talking about reviving jobs and wages and moving toward universal health care. None of that is going to be possible if this country is involved in some generation-long struggle with millions of Muslims. My own view is that it's more sensible to confront the fact that our foreign policies toward the Arab world [add up to] the one indispensable ally Osama bin Laden has. Need he say more?

02-14-2008, 12:55 PM	#2
Windwalker Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 3,583	What would be our best strategy? __________________ America: Love it and protect it or leave it

02-14-2008, 01:00 PM	#3
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,873	If I knew that ... I'd be a billionaire. Personally... I'm prepared to defend our country as a civilian too. I really doubt the Al Qaeda brain trust believes the people of this country would pick up arms and fight back. There are enough Veterans, active duty military and patriots who would become minutemen in a heartbeat should little Osama try anything stupid on our soil. Given the fact I ate a car bomb in Saudi Arabia in 1996... I know the kind of people these are. They understand one thing only... and it is force. Diplomacy is seen as a weakness. If I had a say in anything (which of course, I do not) I would say to unleash the dogs of war. Let the SEALS, Delta, Force Recon and other nasties of our military out to play with their toys in a very unrestricted way. Last edited by LarryO1970; 02-14-2008 at 01:06 PM.

02-14-2008, 03:38 PM	#12
Windwalker Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 3,583	I'm sorry but any religion who orders its followers to kill all who don't conform to that religion must be considered by me to be my enemies. Threatening me and mine with death requires me to try to neutralize your threat any way possible. There is no middle ground here. __________________ America: Love it and protect it or leave it

02-14-2008, 04:20 PM	#14
nathangdad Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,472	Worse than Osama We have as much or more to fear from the total ineptness and incompetence of Bush, Rumsfeld, and Rice. They have left America in a disasterous financial state for both the government and the population which now has almost 1 trillion in non-mortgage debt. Their attempt to make the population look away from domestic issues with a war turned into a total failure for America and a unification point for anti-American forces around the world. We must pray for a President far beyond the capabilties of those currently running for office.

02-14-2008, 01:15 PM	#5
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,873	Wingwiper ... I'm not here to argue with you and I'm not about to. If you want to judge the credibility of this former CIA officer who dealt with these people, be my guest. God knows that you apparently know more than he does. On a personal note, have you ever had any dealings with these people? I have, it was a bad situation and I agree with him because I know where he is coming from.

02-14-2008, 01:16 PM	#6
tlarkin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 1,581	I think our huge lack of understanding the Muslim and middle eastern cultures would be a start. Learn as much as we can about their way of life and how and why they may hate us.

02-14-2008, 02:00 PM	#10
tlarkin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 1,581	Larry, I have read the Qur'an and own a copy of it at home. Its on my bookshelf. I can pull quotes from all religious texts, including christianity that parallel the same sayings. Jesus in some parts of the bible talks about carrying weapons and preparing to kill if necessary, and of course there is war, and all kinds of violence in the bible. The problem is not the religion, it is how you interpret it. The people that are the fundamentalists are the ones interpreting it in a way to make their own political beliefs a reality. We have it here in the USA, remember Jerry Fallwell, that guy was insane, and he believed in some messed up stuff, and he had followers - and they bombed abortion clinics. They really believed they were doing the work of God. Islam is still relatively new as far as religions go as well. If you want to quote religion all day about the violence related to it, we would never ever talk about anything else in this thread.

02-14-2008, 02:03 PM	#11
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,873	Very good point.

02-14-2008, 04:45 PM	#15
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	those who don't learn from history are destine to repeat it!we have troops in how many countries ??? I think we as a nation are to mired in political correctness to do what needs to be done, this is no reflection on the miltary they take orders from civilian leaders, and it appears to me that many are getting railroaded for having to make split decisions in the heat of battle>

02-14-2008, 05:05 PM	#17
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	I don't know if I can say religion is evil? I think the way man manipulates religion for his own personal gain is were the true evil lies? with that said, I think the reason many people hate us is not only because of our policies but also their perception of us as seen in movies tv and the news media! I was born here and sometimes i'm sick with the nonsence I see on tv! and you wonder why so many hate us!!

02-14-2008, 07:09 PM	#18
Wingwiper Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 789	Look Lary, I am not trying to grandstand and by no means do I think I know more than anyone else. I have lived in the U.S. for almost 60 years and been to alot of places etc and I am not an EXPERT in my own country. I do not know what makes a Jew tick nor a Mormon nor even a Amish, so how am I to know what makes Muslim tick? How can anyone after 20 years feel they know more than the people who lived there for centuries? Do I agree they want to kill us, YES! KNOWLEDGE REPLACES FEAR AS DOES EDUCATION WHICH IS KNOWLEDGE. We can educate these people as we are by building schools and offering them alternatives to Hate and Murder. We can solve alot of problems by allowing Human Rights to replace Hate. We can allow them to make decisions and choices for themselves, let them earn a paycheck and allow them to spend it as they chose. people who have been offered Freedom and Liberty, usually choose not to surrender it. We can turn their hate around but we also must severe the head of the Snake that wants to destroy us.

02-14-2008, 07:41 PM	#19
elmer fudd Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: pheasant country USA! Posts: 1,941	i dont know what the best thing to do is but keep hilery and oboma out of the house would be a start

02-14-2008, 07:50 PM	#20
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	wingwiper In my opinion your statement about educating them is sincere how ever many of them are well educated especialy their leadership,I think one of their excuses is our presences in the middle east, some,more knowledgeble then me will suggest we should leave? maybe their right? my question is this, as long as they are not bothering us why should we change or influence any other country?the liberals in our own country are attempting to change our way of thinking, and when they do this it's usualy met with anger and resentment, If they want to live under religious law, so be it! as long as they aren't a threat to anyone but them selves? now we are there for better or worse, if we leave it will be preceived as a big win for the terrorist, I think many of the muslim world associate kindness as a form of weakness,hundreds of years ago the civilzed world fought this battle and from what I read it took a few ruthless leaders of that day to contain them, I doubt we as a society have the stomach to do what needs to be done,and will jeopardize the lives of millions to remain policialy correct.