Pit Bull...lethal weapon?

[Casull]

i dont think its the dog no dog domestic dog is vicious to start out with until the owner makes em that way

You know, I hear many say that (usually pit owners), but I'm not sure I buy into it. Yes, dogs do have individual personalities, but if they have been bred for hundreds of years to do something, then they have a genetic disposition to do that thing. Kind of like watching a pointer that has had no training "point" at things. I would imagine that pit's and other fighting breeds could be expected to "fight" without being trained to do so. It's in there genes. In any event, I will not equate a dog with a firearm or an auto, since firearms and autos are inanimate objects and cannot "attack" on their own, while a dog surely can (and I say this as a dog lover).

[JohnnyRebel]

They're not bred to fight people though. Most people would not be able to identify a real pit bull. I own these dogs myself and they are all under 40lbs. I have 2 adult females that are under 30lbs. I have a beagle mix that wanders my place because the pit bulls are very POOR "guard" dogs. They won't bark if someone comes up and anyone could walk in my backyard and steal them if it were not for the beagle.

See if you can find the pit bull here:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Fin...pitbull_v4.swf

Be honest with it. I found him on the 1st try.

[billy]

you can breed for unpredictable viciousness

[elmer fudd]

yes i agree with you but if you are nice to them they probobly wont be as mean as if you torture it. but ya it is hard for them to fight instinct i agree with you casull

[Cyrano]

I know the vicious ones are out there; I've seen enough of them on the news and on TV. There was a reddish brown pitbull (is it one word or two?) that was shown on an episode of Law & Order that put on a vicious act that would scare the peewaddin out of even a trained animal control officer - through a muzzle. But the only ones I've ever known were sweet, affectionate dogs whose biggest threat was planting muddy paws on your shoulders and smothering you with doggy kisses. For some reason, although their owners tried and they were otherwise trained and obedient, they could nto be broken of this habit. I learned to crouch down with my back to the fence so they couldn't bowl me over and let them come to me on all fours. Still got my face washed, though.

They do require lots of human interaction if you want them to grow up as sweethearts, though. One sad thing hereabouts is the vast number of pits at the local no-kill shelter. People get them "for protection" and then find they cannot handle them or won't devote the time required to train and socialize them, so they dump them at the shelter.

I wish more people understood when they get a dog that they aren't buying an accessory, they're gaining a family member and approach the question of what kind of a dog to get from that angle. My across the street neighbor who has an autistic kid who also has cerebral palsy had it suggested to her that her son needed a dog, that it would be good for him to have one to love and who would love him. I think they also had in mind having the critter trained as a service dog.

She wanted a small dog that was good with kids. For some reason she got a 'Labradoodle,' a Labrador retriever- standardbred poodle cross. The dog hasn't reached its full growth yet, is the size of a small pony and has to weigh at least 100 pounds. They have taken it to obedience school but it does not seem to have done much good. Neither parent can adequately control it although they keep it on a leash at all times outside the house. There is no chance their son will be able to control the dog even by voice, much less physically, any time soon. I'm wondering how long it will be before they say the dog's too much for them and it ends up at the shelter? Perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit, but I do believe they didn't know what they were getting into when they chose a dog that is completely wrong for their situation, even though that crossbreed is supposed to be excellent with children.

[BaserRonin]

Pits were actually bred to be docile to humans. If you have a breed bred to fight, you want them dog aggressive, not human aggressive. Pits will be naturally submissive towards humans until some idiot beats it out of them.

Not sure that applies to the inbred messes that can barely stand up to lift a leg to pee that we are seeing now...not sure why these people refuse to neuter their dog.

Back on topic, all the pits I, or my friends, have ever owned have been real sweet. I will find some pro-pit articles so you can read up on it more. The media hammers and spends so much time on shock-value/scare-mongering that thats all a lot of people know.

Cyrano:
the shelters are overrun with the dog-of-the-month pit's here as well. It used to be dalmatians, then it was Lab's, now it's pits. There seems to be something with these dogs image that prevents people from neutering them.

also, +1 on how active these things are! they need to be run, and a lot!

[Tater]

I think a permit to own what would be classified as a dangerous animal would be good. Would it be 100% effective? Probably not, but it would help.

Im a probationary member at the local volunteer fire department, I wont be in 2 months when I turn 18 and insurance changes. I try to make every run I can, and have yet to encounter what I would call a dangerous animal. My father has been a paid firefighter for 20+ years, and I'm sure hes had to deal with them before, but Ive never heard him talk about anything like it.

[JohnnyRebel]

A permit to own a dog makes as much sense as a permit to own a gun.

[cubbieman]

on the firefighter killing dogs-you did what you had to do, if you have a dog to defend your house, that is a risk you assume.

my friend's landlord(he's in jail right now) has a particularly large pit bull, probably 80-100 pounds, that he beats, and I like pit bulls, so I'm extra nice to that dog, and he's nice to me, I'm amazed by the control he has over his play bite, I don't make a habit of sticking my arm in a pit bull's mouth, but i got distracted for a second, and barely even felt it, my rat terrier bit harder when we were playing

a pit bull is the only dog I would consider owning, but first I have to find a job where I can afford to have a property with my house and a second, heated structure(this is alaska, and I don't like fur in my house) for the dog and I would have to own it, because most people don't allow pit bulls in their rentals, so I'll have to stick to caged animals for a few years

[Wingwiper]

DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere

31 people KILLED by Dogs in 2007 and the 2 worst dogs for Killing People?


Where is your favorite Pet???

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

Log totals
Through January 20, 2002, the log of life-threatening and fatal attacks showed that pit bulls had committed 592 (45%) of the 1,301 total attacks qualifying for inclusion, including 280 (21%) of the attacks on children, 222 (60%) of the attacks on adults, 51 (34%) of the fatal attacks, and 321 (45%) of the maimings and disfigurements.

Rottweilers had committed 291 (22%) of the attacks, including 24% of the attacks on children, 63 (17%) of the attacks on adults, 36 (24%) of the fatalities, and 159 (22%) of the maimings and disfigurements.

Combined, pit bulls and Rottweilers had committed 72% of all the attacks, 45% of the attacks on children, 77% of the attacks on adults, 58% of the fatalities, and 67% of the maimings and disfigurements.

[big boomer]

In the 80's my son was bit by a Pit from the guy next door, the dog got loose and bit him ,he was one of 7 people bit before the dog was put down. No one would do anything about it for a long time.

[JohnnyRebel]

The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog.

See how they stand up here: ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - ATTS Breed Statistics

Statistics can be manipulated. dogbitelaw.com sites one study for their "facts" without stating what the parameters were for the study. Again, I point back to that link I posted earlier. People can't identify a "pit bull". So a bite by a yellow lab mix goes down as a "pit bull" mauling.

[Cudahogs]

Originally Posted by Casull

You know, I hear many say that (usually pit owners), but I'm not sure I buy into it. Yes, dogs do have individual personalities, but if they have been bred for hundreds of years to do something, then they have a genetic disposition to do that thing. Kind of like watching a pointer that has had no training "point" at things. I would imagine that pit's and other fighting breeds could be expected to "fight" without being trained to do so. It's in there genes. In any event, I will not equate a dog with a firearm or an auto, since firearms and autos are inanimate objects and cannot "attack" on their own, while a dog surely can (and I say this as a dog lover).

It all comes down to responsible ownership, not unlike gun ownership. I disagree that they are mean by virtue of breeding. This breed gets a really bad rap because of a few idiot owners that don't socialize their pets and attend basic obiedience classes, once again-just like gun ownership.
A friend of ours has a pit bull that was found in an alley that was bruised up, cut up, covered in blood and more than likely trained for fighting. With a little bit of work he has one of the best dogs I've ever met. She loves people and other dogs. My greyhound used to intimidate her and take toys away from her.
Getting back to my greyhounds, in no way would a greyhound be a terrific racer based on genetics and they've been bred to be fast for hundreds of years. Without lure course training, they look 2 dimentional with their lack of muscle definition and speed.
Sadly, once an opinion is formed about something it takes much stronger convincing to change one's mind, again-not unlike gun ownership and all of us dealing with the 'left'.
-Fred

[cubbieman]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Combined, pit bulls and Rottweilers had committed 72% of all the attacks, 45% of the attacks on children, 77% of the attacks on adults, 58% of the fatalities, and 67% of the maimings and disfigurements.

note the difference in adults and children, also, what age does "children" end? those stats imply that if you beat a pit bull or rottweiler, it will eat you. I'd be interested in the #s for 16-25 year old males

[tlarkin]

Any living creatures can have temperaments. I have seen a 200 lb rot that is so scary but at the same time nothing but a big baby. I kid you not, words can not describe how big this rot is. My dad's cousin, who lives down near the ozarks, has a huge rot. Who is just the sweetest thing you can possibly ever meet. He thinks he is a lap dog and will try to hop on your lap regardless of how big you are or how much room there is. Is an intruder would only know that he would lick you to death instead of biting you, they would be more inclined to stick around. This dogs head is bigger than my chest, and I'm 5'10" 165lbs to give you an idea.

My parents owned a couple of english bulldogs growing up, and these dogs take effort to train. Both dogs were not socialized very well. The first one was more passive but was still very territorial. One time he wouldn't even let me break into my parent's house and I had lived in that house longer than he had. I forgot my key once and tried to pry open a window on the back porch to let myself in from the summer heat. Their bulldog after that one and their current one is spoiled rotten, bites strangers (not hard but nips at them), barks at everything that moves, this dog has OCD, and it is a serious case of OCD. He will bark at furniture if you rearrange it in the living room, and he will keep barking at it until you move it back. Either, this dog really knows his fung shui, or is just extremely OCD. The first bulldog we had was more disciplined and he grew up with kids, the second one my parents have and still have, grew up with my parents but my brother and I were adults. So, it didn't get the constant attention the first one did because there were no kids in the house.

My father also had a German Sheppard when he was in his early twenties and his neighbor had a little girl, who he tells me was around 5 years old when he lived there. His Sheppard was mean as hell, and bit everyone, and would not let anyone touch it, take care of it, walk it or anything. Except it would let that little girl grab its ears, pull on its fur, jump on its back and that German Sheppard never cared one bit. In fact my old man tells me that when the neighbors would call the girl in for dinner my dad had to go get her and hold the dog back because the dog wouldn't let anyone but my dad near the girl.

My friend has to get rid of his dog he just got recently. It is some sort of rescue lab mix. he got it as a very small puppy, so chances of abuse are very very slim. This dog is just a plain jerk. It bites and attacks everyone and everything in his house. He has a little daughter and he is now getting rid of his dog because it is starting to show signs of aggressiveness at only a few months old. I have only been over there once, but that one time the dog just followed me and bit my jeans, and locked his jaw and flung his head around on my jeans. Now that dog is starting to get bigger and stronger and you can see what leads to.

I think the bottom line is that some dogs are just jerks, and some dog owners are just jerks, and when you mix the dog and the owner who are both jerks you get something worse. A jerk squared for both the owner and the dog.

[billy]

i gotta agree.
some dogs are just natural born a-holes
just like people!

[Sooner Shooter]

I haven't read all the posts but the breeding of dogs is a lot like humans. Two bad parents and you get a bad offspring. That's one of the problems with the pit is that people intentionally breed the bad animals. Back in the 80's I think the cocker spaniel was one of the most popular dogs. During these times if you would read the report on which dog was responsible for the most people bites it was the Cocker. People would breed these dogs with no regard to characteristics. You would see them being sold at Walmart and other road side places. They didn't care about anything except a little extra spending money. Pits probably aren't any worse than any other dog except when they bite they can kill! I believe it's coming but I'd like to see even stricter laws on the dogs that can kill and mame! SS

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRebel

See how they stand up here: ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - ATTS Breed Statistics

Statistics can be manipulated. dogbitelaw.com sites one study for their "facts" without stating what the parameters were for the study. Again, I point back to that link I posted earlier. People can't identify a "pit bull". So a bite by a yellow lab mix goes down as a "pit bull" mauling.

Go to my Second link the pdf file and it is more specific, and take note that the website I posted is really to inform people and to offer their legal rights as DOG OWNERS. Using your example, it works BOTH ways, "So a bite by a Pit bull mix goes down as a "yellow lab" mauling." My dog was involved in an incident a few years back and I went to this site and learned enough to be able to defend myself. It turned out my dogs paws did the damage and no teeth, but because there was lots of blood and a dog, it was labeled as ATTACK and MAULED when after investigation, it turned out the young lady was sitting on the floor eating and my Dog pawed the side of her head in a BEGGING FOR FOOD move and tore the the side of her head pretty good. The girl rowed over and started to kick the dog (130 pound) and the dog in returned, continue to paw her and caused a another wound to the upper side of her arm. We measured the teethe of the upper and lower jaw and the spacing of the wounds matched toenails and NOT teeth, When it was also pointed out that the wounds were only on ONE SIDE of the head and the arm and what was the lower jaw doing at this time, it was concluded it was NOT an Attack. The Doctors lectured me as if it was an attack as did the Police and it was after investigation it turned out NOT to be te case. So yes, I ma sure the numbers may vary, as it states in the website. If you read more of the site, you will see it is a pretty fair site.

Originally Posted by cubbieman

note the difference in adults and children, also, what age does "children" end? those stats imply that if you beat a pit bull or rottweiler, it will eat you. I'd be interested in the #s for 16-25 year old males

You can go to the DOGBITE LAW website and there are many many links that you can go from there and maybe someone else did a study and broke it down for you. Your denial is based on "I DON"T WANT TO BELIEVE IT" and the websites are posting STUDIES and YES! as stated by another poster, some of the those studies could be mis construed, but by how much is the question? Many states, cities, towns and developments have OUTLAWED the possession of these dogs by their own reputations. Your argument is NOT with me, but will be in a court should you own one of these dogs and have to fight off a major lawsuit. Been there done that and it is still not over yet. I am lucky I own a dog breed that is not one of the MAJOR dogs listed by Courts and Insurance Companies as a Threat. I have a very good chance I will win, people who own those Specific Breeds have pretty well LOST their case before they arrive in court.

Sorry if it doesn't line up, perfectly.
As far as the poster stating the wrong breed may get the blame, these statistics are usually involving the police and no doubt because of fear of Rabies, the OWNERS were involved and asked for te breed. No doubt the OWNERS may have lied in some cases by saying they had a MIX when they knew that the PURE BREED may NOT have been allowed in the area of the attack.

Breed....................................Attacks doing........Child.........Adult......Deaths....Ma imings
............................................bodily harm..........victims......victims
............................................[dogs X victims]...[--------Individuals-------------------]
Akita............................................. .. 48................32.............14..........1.... ........39
Akita mix(inspecific).............................1..... .............1...............0..........0......... .....1
Akita/Chow mix...................................3........... .......3...............0..........0..............3
Akita/Lab mix.....................................1......... .........1...............0..........0............. .1
Akita/terrier mi...................................2............ ......1...............0..........0..............1
Chow.............................................. 49................34..............12..........6... .........32
Chow/husky mix.................................2............. ....2................0..........1..............1
Chow/Labrador mix.............................4................. 4................0..........0..............3
Chox mix (other).................................2......... .........2................0..........0............ 2
Cocker spaniel....................................1...... ...........1................0...........0......... ...1
German shepherd..............................63.......... ......42..............17..........7............38
German shepherd mix.........................31................21.. .............7...........6............19
Ger shep/husky mix.............................4................. 3................1...........1.............2
Pit bull terrier................................1110....... .......495.............397........104.........608
Pit bull boxer mix................................5.............. ....1................2...........0.............2
Pit bull/chow mix................................5.............. ....2................3...........1.............3
Pit bull/Doberman/GSD/Lab...................2..................2........ ........0...........0.............2
Pit bull/GSD mix..................................1............ ......1................0...........0.............1
Pit bull/Lab mix.................................15............ .....10................4...........3.............8
Pit bull/Rott. mix...............................39.............. .....7................3...........2.............8
Pit bull/Sheltie mix..............................1................ ...1.................0..........0.............1
Pit bull/Weimaraner mix........................1...................0.. ...............1..........0.............1
Pit mix unknown.................................3......... ...........2.................0..........0......... ....2
Pug/Rottweiler mix..............................2................ ....1.................0..........1.............0
Rottweiler......................................40 9.................231..............109........58.. ........223
Rottweiler/chow mix............................1.................. ..1.................0..........0.............1
Rottweiler/GSD mix............................13................. ...7.................5..........2............10
Rottweiler/Labrador.............................7............ ........6.................1..........0............ .7
Pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios, and their mixes:
.................................................. 1638.................776..............537.......17 2.........893
.................................................. ...74%................68%.............82%.......65 %.......68%

[elmer fudd]

i want to know how you would mix a pug in a rottwieler!!!!!!!

[A-10]

Originally Posted by elmer fudd

i want to know how you would mix a pug in a rottwieler!!!!!!!

Sounds like the perfect killing machine.... or wait.... the deadly pitbull- chowowa mix