McCain really isn't THAT bad...

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Originally Posted by NRAJOE

McCain is the real Manchurian Candidate...
We would have been much WORSE under him....he is a RINO....
He has voted against gunowners and is a filthy !!!!!!!...

What?????? just a few years ago you couldn't stand his @$$; now you have your nose up his hind end.

Originally Posted by NRAJOE

Arizona: Republican John McCain (*C/F-) posed as a strong Second Amendment supporter during the 2000 Republican presidential primaries. But in the next session of Congress, he sponsored the McCain-Lieberman gun-show bill, which would have given the federal government the administrative power to prohibit all gun shows, and to register everyone who attends a gun show. And of course the McCain-Feingold campaign-finance law is the most extreme congressional assault on First Amendment rights since the Sedition Acts of the Woodrow Wilson and John Adams administrations. McCain's Democratic opponent, Stuart Starky (C/F), is no better.

I'm not one to say someone can't learn from their mistakes or even change their views over time. I am certainly not the same person with the same views as when I was 20. I believe McCain to be of an age and experience to be set in his views. I don't believe his anti second amendment stances a few years ago have vanished as he has somehow "seen the light". I believe him to be a politician and as such will say what he needs to say to get elected. He knows full well he cannot run on the republican ticket without supporting gun rights. So he says what you want to hear. Hooray! We're saved!

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

So he says what you want to hear. Hooray! We're saved!

Well said.

[tlarkin]

I would like to point out a few things, especially after being drunk and watching KU win their game tonight, I feel almost obligated and at the same time distressed about doing it. Ironic I guess.

First off, socialism is something that is widely misunderstood in our nation. Our education system for one fails every American citizen. A good prime example is Christopher Columbus, he was a bigot, a slave driver, drove a whole peaceful civilization to genocide, enslaved and oppressed many, and was so ignorant he didn't even know where he was. yet we patronize and praise him in our public schools and even have a public holiday for him. The ignorance is so great about this it almost makes me sick, but then i remind myself that I have a government job, and Columbus day is a paid holiday off and then I don't mind that he was a slave driver, hate monger, and horrible person, because I get to sleep in late and play my xbox 360 all day.


That being said, we need to all agree as Americans that every individual has a right to believe what they want to believe. I do believe in democracy and I do believe that if our common man will vote something in majority it should be absolute. However, the problem is so many people in this country have no idea about the concept or the greater good of anything.

Take our misunderstood gun laws for example. Everyone who is pro gun is pro gun to the bone, and regardless of what a politician may stand for, if they are anti gun they are bad. They could be the best thing to happen to our country in the longest time and turn things around, yet our simple minds and our greeds and needs do not let us see the bigger picture.


While, I do agree with everyone on this forum that there should be no restrictions on guns, I do go a step further. I say they should have no right to tell us what we can do and can not do with our bodies, ie abortion or drugs. They should not tell us how we can live or lives or involve any type of religion in government. Religion does not dictate a person, nor does it describe what a person really is. It is a personal private choice. I believe that all references to any god, or diety should be removed from our government, our pledge of allegiance, or currency and marriage should be called civil union on the eyes of the government.

I think the big business should be regulated, because if it is not, it will be abused. I believe in personal rights, and our constitution. i believe that if I disagree with what every belief a man stands for I can still have a beer with him and discuss it like gentlemen.

We are better than this, and we no longer need to label each other. We have social programs and socialism and capitalism can actually co-exist. If we didn't live in a profit based health care system you wouldn't see hospitals go out of business or people denied health care, and same goes for higher education.

yet, we live in sad world where people's beliefs become greed and we can not decide on a common ground for the greater good. I have listed some of my personal beliefs and I think a lot of people would jump out and call me a communist or a liberal off the bat and I am neither. My political beliefs may lean towards liberal conservative (they do exist) but really I am an independent, and I want all of us to stop this bantering and cry baby arguing and come together as actual smart educated adults, and decided that we for once just all need to get over it and decide what is for the greater good and what is personal choice.

[TexasT]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

First off, socialism is something that is widely misunderstood in our nation. Our education system for one fails every American citizen. A good prime example is Christopher Columbus, he was a bigot, a slave driver, drove a whole peaceful civilization to genocide, enslaved and oppressed many, and was so ignorant he didn't even know where he was. yet we patronize and praise him in our public schools and even have a public holiday for him. The ignorance is so great about this it almost makes me sick, but then i remind myself that I have a government job, and Columbus day is a paid holiday off and then I don't mind that he was a slave driver, hate monger, and horrible person, because I get to sleep in late and play my xbox 360 all day.

Haha true. Not to mention he "discovered" a place that was already inhabited. That always bugged me. That's like me going into your garage and discovering your cars and claiming them as my own.

[Parrothead]

Take our misunderstood gun laws for example. Everyone who is pro gun is pro gun to the bone, and regardless of what a politician may stand for, if they are anti gun they are bad. They could be the best thing to happen to our country in the longest time and turn things around, yet our simple minds and our greeds and needs do not let us see the bigger picture.

Actually, I fall into that description but I disagree with the simple minds, greeds, and needs bit and would like to explain a bit further.

If someone takes away the guns from the law abiding citizenry then only the government and the criminals (by definition those who choose not to obey the law) will have them. I surely want to be able to defend myself and my roommate against criminals, but I also want to be able to defend myself against the government should the need arise. This is as the Framers intended it.

Without the ability to defend against the government, what real power is there in a republic? We could vote until we are blue in the face and our hands bleed, but if the politicians chose to ignore our voice, there would be no recourse other than capitulation or praying that the Armed Forces showed their allegiance to the Constitution rather than the government in power at that time. I have faith in most of the members of the Armed Forces to honor their oath to uphold the Constitution, but it is still comforting to know that I can count on myself and my fellow Citizens should the need arise.

But it's so much more than that. Take this argument from the angle of this hypothetical politician being opposed to any other right, much less any other Constitutional right. Can you imagine if the politician in question came out against gay rights? Christian rights? Black, Hispanic, Native American, White, Asian or any other race's rights? How about if he/she were against 1st Amendment rights?

While, I do agree with everyone on this forum that there should be no restrictions on guns, I do go a step further. I say they should have no right to tell us what we can do and can not do with our bodies, ie abortion or drugs. They should not tell us how we can live or lives or involve any type of religion in government. Religion does not dictate a person, nor does it describe what a person really is. It is a personal private choice. I believe that all references to any god, or diety should be removed from our government, our pledge of allegiance, or currency and marriage should be called civil union on the eyes of the government.

I have to disagree with you on the abortion and drugs points. Abortion in my eyes (and the eyes of many) involves a second life independent of the mother's life and therefore infringes on the rights of another. Drugs (at least the popular recreational variety) are mind altering substances. There's a good reason PCP is banned for example - just ask a cop like my dad !

I'm with you up to a point when it comes to religion. My difference is the removal of God from government. Let me explain a bit. If it specifically said "Yaweigh," "Allah," "Bhudda," "God of Moses and Abraham," "Ra," "Thor," or any other specific deity, I would agree completely! I believe that the references to God are more to a higher power or creator above Man. This was an important principle in the founding of this nation. The Founders believed that the rights of the people were conferred to the people by a higher power and not by any man or government and therefore cannot be taken away by a man or government. If you take this away, you are left with a situation where the government decides what rights you do and do not have. I personally prefer to be able to tell any politician that they do not personally decide what rights I have. One of my favorite parts of the Declaration of Independence is the part about (paraphrasing here) every person being endowed by their creator with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

tlarkin, I may have posted at length about the ways in which I disagree with you, but there's one other statement I just have to respond to:

I believe in personal rights, and our constitution. i believe that if I disagree with what every belief a man stands for I can still have a beer with him and discuss it like gentlemen.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE 100% !!! I see you're in Kansas City, MO. I'm out here in Las Vegas, NV. Let me know if you're coming into town and I'll see about rounding up some $$$ to either go to an indoor range to rent some full autos or we can go out in the desert and use some non-NFA goodies before we go out for a good night on the town Sound good to you?

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

I would like to point out a few things, especially after being drunk and watching KU win their game tonight, I feel almost obligated and at the same time distressed about doing it. Ironic I guess.

First off, socialism is something that is widely misunderstood in our nation. Our education system for one fails every American citizen. A good prime example is Christopher Columbus, he was a bigot, a slave driver, drove a whole peaceful civilization to genocide, enslaved and oppressed many, and was so ignorant he didn't even know where he was. yet we patronize and praise him in our public schools and even have a public holiday for him. The ignorance is so great about this it almost makes me sick, but then i remind myself that I have a government job, and Columbus day is a paid holiday off and then I don't mind that he was a slave driver, hate monger, and horrible person, because I get to sleep in late and play my xbox 360 all day.


That being said, we need to all agree as Americans that every individual has a right to believe what they want to believe. I do believe in democracy and I do believe that if our common man will vote something in majority it should be absolute. However, the problem is so many people in this country have no idea about the concept or the greater good of anything.

Take our misunderstood gun laws for example. Everyone who is pro gun is pro gun to the bone, and regardless of what a politician may stand for, if they are anti gun they are bad. They could be the best thing to happen to our country in the longest time and turn things around, yet our simple minds and our greeds and needs do not let us see the bigger picture.


While, I do agree with everyone on this forum that there should be no restrictions on guns, I do go a step further. I say they should have no right to tell us what we can do and can not do with our bodies, ie abortion or drugs. They should not tell us how we can live or lives or involve any type of religion in government. Religion does not dictate a person, nor does it describe what a person really is. It is a personal private choice. I believe that all references to any god, or diety should be removed from our government, our pledge of allegiance, or currency and marriage should be called civil union on the eyes of the government.

I think the big business should be regulated, because if it is not, it will be abused. I believe in personal rights, and our constitution. i believe that if I disagree with what every belief a man stands for I can still have a beer with him and discuss it like gentlemen.

We are better than this, and we no longer need to label each other. We have social programs and socialism and capitalism can actually co-exist. If we didn't live in a profit based health care system you wouldn't see hospitals go out of business or people denied health care, and same goes for higher education.

yet, we live in sad world where people's beliefs become greed and we can not decide on a common ground for the greater good. I have listed some of my personal beliefs and I think a lot of people would jump out and call me a communist or a liberal off the bat and I am neither. My political beliefs may lean towards liberal conservative (they do exist) but really I am an independent, and I want all of us to stop this bantering and cry baby arguing and come together as actual smart educated adults, and decided that we for once just all need to get over it and decide what is for the greater good and what is personal choice.

Well said. I'm an independent as well. Unfortunately, people think in labels and so it is generally easier to just say that some of us "lean" toward a particular ideology even if we don't agree with all of it.

The really unfortunate thing is when people associate those labels with something negative, then use those negatives as an attack. Then, when the person being attacked stands up for themselves, they are seen as the instigators.

People need to learn to discuss things with civility. I have friends of all different ideological stripes. The only philosophies I find hard to stomach enough that I won't associate with are Nazis and extreme religious fanatics (of ANY religion, not just Islam). But short of that, I have friends and family of just about any stripe you can imagine. And I can talk with them about it any time because of mutual respect.

I think what was missing from this conversation (at least on one side of it) was respect. Not for the belief system, but for the person. My only crime was allowing myself to be goaded. .Pride is one of my weaknesses, and in my more narcissistic phases I consider my retorts and witticisms so clever that I feel I must share them with the world. I should have simply ignored the petty remarks as little more that the minor irritations that they were, rather that use them as a platform for my own amusement.

From now on, I'll just use the forum's ignore feature when someone starts directing insults at me.

Using logic and wit to debate with some people is a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing: It is a waste of time, it annoys the pig, and in the end you are still stuck with a filthy animal that you would have been better off just killing, eating, and making a leather coat with their skin.

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by TexasT

Haha true. Not to mention he "discovered" a place that was already inhabited. That always bugged me. That's like me going into your garage and discovering your cars and claiming them as my own.

Like I said in a previous post, Christopher Columbus was the perfect new-era (Feinstein/Pelosi/Kennedy/clinton/Chuck) democrat:

He didn't know where he was going
He got lost along the way
When he got there, he didn't know where he was
When he got home, he lied about where he'd been

AND

He did it all with someone else's money !!!!

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Tlarkin I couldn't disagree more with your stance on government regulation. Why in the hell would anyone trust our government to do anything in our best interest. SS, welfare, taxes, labor laws, gun control...... all ideas that were esposed to be for our better good; now its a carrot on a stick that politicians and special interest groups hold over our head to make us dance every couple of years and to get us to spend money so they can keep dangling it over our heads.

There is a reason why drugs are regulated - because they are abused and because government has extreme power because of the laws written around this.

You can't have complete de regulation but at the same time you can't have total regulation. Regulation stifles creativity. There's big money in regulation....... ever stop to ask why didn't the big labor groups go away after they got all the worker protections that they were asking for? Or why does the brady campaign still persist in pushing for gun control after they had gotten the AWB passed.

[tlarkin]

Here is the problems I dislike about the whole regulation thing. Corporations should be regulated to ensure they are following labor laws, giving their employees fair wages and ensure they don't break the law. Big buisness is already bigger than our government.

Health care, which is privatized in our nation, is asinine, and I have really good benefits. Since it is profit based health care everyone assumes it will be the best, but in reality it is not and hospitals in our country are closing down and losing tons of money. If everyone were taken care of you would not see this problem, nor would you see health care companies denying people valid treatments because it costs too much money. They don't care about you, but they are in the business of caring about you, and all they want is to maximize their profits. To me, that is just plain messed up and if you can't see that then I am sorry because it really is messed up that people with health care get denied treatments all the time. Our system is horrible.

The reason I took those stances on abortion and drug use is because the government has no right to say otherwise. It does not represent my moral stance on either subject completely but at the same time I believe that the government should have no say over our reproductive rights or if we want to put drugs in our bodies. I do think both should be lightly regulated to reduce back alley dealings and crime, and it should be taxed.


SPOCAHP ANAR

I don't see how you disagree with me, I want our private rights just like you. I however, do not trust the government nor do I trust private companies and I know how each of them screw over the common man. However, if you were to perhaps get big business out of government, ie our health care lobbyists, perhaps they would start to slap down some regulation on them and make them provide the proper service to people who pay for it.

I have had my insurance, which I pay 100s of dollars into each month, deny me prescription drugs before. For whatever asinine reason, most of the time it is because the drug is too new and that means its experimental in their eyes, so they deny coverage. Then, I had to pay out of pocket to get those drugs so I could get over my ailment. I pay those ******** a lot of money each year, and I deserve to get my service, however I didn't and I don't.

Parrot Head, if I ever make it out to vegas and we have time I would love to go shoot some fully autos, preferably lots of them!

[NRAJOE]

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

What?????? just a few years ago you couldn't stand his @$$; now you have your nose up his hind end.
I'm not one to say someone can't learn from their mistakes or even change their views over time. I am certainly not the same person with the same views as when I was 20. I believe McCain to be of an age and experience to be set in his views. I don't believe his anti second amendment stances a few years ago have vanished as he has somehow "seen the light". I believe him to be a politician and as such will say what he needs to say to get elected. He knows full well he cannot run on the republican ticket without supporting gun rights. So he says what you want to hear. Hooray! We're saved!

Wow...how sad that you have nothing better to do up dig up old comments of mine trying to make me look like a jackass...

Never said he was perfect...never said he was my 1st choice...
1st was Tancredo
2nd was Fred Thompson
3rd was Mike Huckabee
4th was Bill Richardson (Yes, a Democrat)

McCain is by far a better choice than Obama or Hillary
Any third party candidate is simply a pipe dream and a wasted vote (might as well just vote for O or H because it will help them get in)

Yes, lesser of 2 evils...no candidate will ever follow your beliefs to a T...
Gotta take what you can get...

I really...really don't want Hillary or Obama in the Whitehouse...peace, out.

[BattleRifleG3]

I'm giving McCain the chance to redeem himself. But that will mean him changing and admitting that he's changing for the base of his party, not denying that he's changing like everyone else does. That and his running mate. McCain stands a pretty good chance of becoming incapacitated at his age and either leaving office or just not seeking re-election.

But let it be known that he is in my doghouse. I want to be able to vote for him, but he needs to give me a good reason not to give my vote to the Constitution Party.

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Originally Posted by NRAJOE

Wow...how sad that you have nothing better to do up dig up old comments of mine trying to make me look like a jackass...
Never said he was perfect...never said he was my 1st choice...

How sad it is you aren't man enough to stand by your own convictions. What you did say is he "really isn't all that bad" and you go on to list why you think he's so great after just a few years earlier you claim him to a RINO and "the real Manchurian Candidate" and to have a C-/F gun rights record. Is he better than Hillary, I'm pretty sure he is. Is he better than Obama, possibly. Is he as dreamy as you make him out to be, I seriously doubt it.

I believe him to be a snake in the grass. He is a politician that does not and will not enforce Illegal Immigration laws. He has in the past voted for some gun control legislation that would violate our second amendment rights. He has written the law that will not allow a person to run an ad 30 days prior to an election for or against a particular candidate. I believe he has not changed no matter what he writes on his website.

If you don't care who you vote for as long as its not a Democrat then that's your choice; but don't sugar coat it and think I'm dumb enough to fall for it.

Originally Posted by NRAJOE

Any third party candidate is simply a pipe dream and a wasted vote.

That is because people like you continue to vote for wortless jackasses because they have a D or an R beside their name. When you vote for the lesser of two evils you still get evil.

[NRAJOE]

Whatever dude...I'm not in the mood to argue with you....

[Zen900]

Obama and Hillary are the two worst presidential candidates in American history by far. I am sickened by mere pictures of them both. Is McCain really a democrat? I wonder. But are Hillary and Obama Americans? No way! One may be a muslim and the other is a full blown marxist. I didnt like LBJ, Carter or Clinton but they weren't ignorant people. Hillary and Obama are ignorant.

[TexasT]

Originally Posted by Zen900

I didnt like LBJ, Carter or Clinton but they weren't ignorant people. Hillary and Obama are ignorant.

*sigh*

quoted for un-truth

[LarryO1970]

... which Presidential candidate will best serve to protect the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment? That being said... which one will actually do their job as stated in the oath they take accepting office?

Can we the people, fire the politician(s) when they attempt to gut the Constitution?

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by Zen900

But are Hillary and Obama Americans? No way! One may be a muslim and the other is a full blown marxist.

I'll ignore for a moment how inaccurate both those statements are: Hillary certainly isn't a Marxist, if she were the far left wouldn't revile her as much as they do, and the Obama = Muslim LIE is so old it has moss on it.

I'm just curious...are you saying that someone who is a Marxist or a Muslim (or, heaven forbid, BOTH) can't be an American? I could understand why you might not want one of these two to be our President, but to not even share your country? You wold deny American citizenship to a person because of their ideological or religious beliefs?

On a separate note, Hillary is to me a benchmark Centrist. My far right friends hate her because she is so liberal, and my far left friends hate her because she is so conservative (or, at least not liberal enough). Meanwhile, all my moderate friends find her just about right. I personally don't like her because she'd too moderate. I also don't like the tactics she's used in the primary, and she's demonstrated that she'd rather tank her party's chances of winning an election than quit a losing race. I'm not nuts about her stand on gun control, but there isn't a single candidate running that mirrors my position on gun control so I've kind of given up on getting that one through.

[ArkansasHunter]

Obsidious WOW you've got some friends ?

[LarryO1970]

Okay, I'll ask again... which Presidential candidate will best serve to protect the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment? That being said... which one will actually do their job as stated in the oath they take accepting office?

Can we the people, fire the politician(s) when they attempt to gut the Constitution?

Now, let me add, which candidate will best support why we are all here...?

[Cyrille]

Yes we can "fire" politician(s) It's called voteing them out or a recall vote, or impeachment. we have the means and the right to exercise that means but most Americans (sad to say) don't want to take the time to exercise!