Obama's 'Elitism' Issue

[LarryO1970]

tlarkin ... I understand that there will probably be some restrictions put on guns if Democrats are elected... but I simply do not see a complete gun ban, regardless of who you think is coming to take them away. It is far too unpopular, not to mention unconstitutional. Anyone giving the order might as well resign.

Just as TXplt said, "1. Someone willing to infringe on the RKBA doesn't take their oath of office very seriously. They swore to "protect and defend the Constitution" -- now they are willing to prostitute their oath of office away for $ or an agenda ? You swore to uphold the constitution--if you don't like it, amend it but you can't violate it on a whim. This, simply, means you word means nothing if you don't uphold our Constitution."

The military and LEO community are far too busy to do this on their own... and even so, would probably disobey the order as I've previously mentioned. Even so, they would also be out gunned easily... as I do not see a company or a platoon of men going house to house.

[tlarkin]

Ok, but this goes back to my original question. Why is the 2nd so much more important than every other right that both parties want to take from us? I mean the Republicans are no longer the republicans, they don't practice what they preach anymore. They are all for bigger government in your personal life, and their legislator they push for shows that.


I mean if you don't gain any privacy rights then it doesn't matter if you have guns or not because they will be able to shut you down financially, know where you are, what you own, what you wear, what you are capable of, and they will take care of you accordingly. having a gun will not stop that.

Economic fall and poverty create more violent crimes every year, which gives guns a bad name, you and I both know that.

The nation is growing tired of the War in the middle east and now we are trying to get Iran to provoke us into war with them. This war has killed our economy, the price of so many goods has gone up and we have outsourced so much that money is leaving our nation by the billions every day and not returning what we send out.

A debt based economy where congress can just borrow money at will for whatever reason to a bunch of private unregulated bankers also kills us, and separates the rich from the poor even more, which can be seen as a cause of poverty, which has a direct effect on violent crimes. Most violent crimes happen in urban impoverished communities of uneducated poor people. Hell, I think KC, MO may have hit 200+ murders last year and I would say less than 5% happened outside a certain area. The poor kill each other violently which gives guns a bad name.

So, would it not be in your interest for your 2nd amendment right to address these issues to lower violent crime so anti-gun advocates can clearly see that guns do not cause violence, that the products of our society actually create murder.

[LarryO1970]

Q. So, would it not be in your interest for your 2nd amendment right to address these issues to lower violent crime so anti-gun advocates can clearly see that guns do not cause violence?

A. You will never convince anti-gun advocates of that, period.

[tlarkin]

I disagree I was once anti-gun myself. I have changed my views through educating myself. It can be done, if done right. Denying that it will ever happen does not help your cause in any way shape or form. Arguing with people and labeling them as liberal lefties won't help either. You can't win someone over with an argument in this country, you have to let them see their own way, and you can only do that through educating them.

If you clearly produce enough data that eliminating poverty and raising our education shows a decrease in violent crimes, where they all happen in inner cities like most major cities. Kansas city and St. Louis are prime examples in my state. Both of them have neighborhoods with hardly any crime, which are rich ones, and others where somebody gets shot every day. Guess what gets blasted all over the news every night? The shootings, violence = ratings.

[LarryO1970]

You are right... however, their ties are political, not personal. They've invested far too much time and money into these anti-gun campaigns that they'd be ridiculed by their peers for changing their opinions.

It may have changed you (for the better ;-P ) but I doubt something like that will change the opinions of Feinstein, Schumer, Clinton, Obama, Pelosi, Edwards, Kerry, Dodd, Boxer, Kennedy, etc., etc., etc...

It is political, not personal.

[LEE3370]

So, if Cain had a better job and had gone to school, he would never have killed Able.
Nope, people kill people. They can use any liberal excuse they want but that will not change the fact. People kill people.

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by LEE3370

So, if Cain had a better job and had gone to school, he would never have killed Able.
Nope, people kill people. They can use any liberal excuse they want but that will not change the fact. People kill people.

Oh please don't reference Cain and Able, or how perhaps Abraham sacrificed his son and his covenant with god? Or how about any other dogmatic hypocrasies all major religions have to offer?


The problems are all intertwined. Impoverished neighborhoods have far worse education which means it is a lot harder for them to get a higher education, which means it is harder for them to get a good paying job, and why should they get a job when selling drugs makes you more money in one year than working for $14.00 at H&R Block or whatever. They go to crime for the easy way out because it is the most viable and available method of making money.

With a debt based society and economy you can not get out a poor neighborhood with out any credit. You move on up and get out of the neighborhood well you will need a job, and established credit to own a home. Cost of living goes up in better neighborhoods and therefore you will have to earn above the minimums to scrape by. While, yes a lot of these impoverished neighborhoods fall under the ridiculous gangsta life style fueled by MTV, hollywood and the record labels, they are also products of their own environment. So, how is a poor minority going to rise above? It is so much harder for them. I was born into the middle class so it was easy for me to stay and I got a decent education, and I still to this day educate myself. Just wait till I get done reading this book on the history of firearms in the USA, haha, you all will hate me then. The book is very very interesting though, and has a non political bias, anyway off topic...

I want to say like 90 to 95% of violent crimes and murders happen to minorities in a small section of my city, while the rest of us don't have to deal with it every day. Sure you get the occasional shooting here or there, but it is every day in our evening news that someone got shot in the ghetto, and everyone knows where it is and no one ever goes into it, except the people who are forced to live there because they can't get out.

If you took away guns, they would still have them no doubt, and it would just create more crime. Prohibition and the war on drugs should at least shed enough light on the subject that it is completely useless to ban things with a nation our size physically and population wise. Too much ground to cover on all ends.

So in the end we have poor, uneducated minorities that are killing each other and making the nightly news every night, which brings up the bad stigma for guns. While I won't argue that a gun is not made for killing, I will argue that people kill people not guns.

Obviously, Obama wants guns out of the inner cities that is clear, but that doesn't mean he wants them out of the middle class, and I have to agree with him. However, I am not sure how effective it will be no matter what angle you take because we unfortunately have fallen so far behind already. If you were to eliminate guns from the crime areas, and I mean illegal guns and from people who break the law with them, then perhaps you would see an actual decrease in gun related violence. I mean guns are just a means to let these people kill each other, that doesn't take them away from their social status as being untouchable. I mean even i get ticked off at the bums asking me for money when I am busting my butt with over time to get some extra money so I can fix my car or what not.

Tell me a better way to stop violence, because there really is no way other than to offer them better education and better chances and allow them to get out of those areas and get jobs with the real work force.

[LarryO1970]

tlarkin ... some people are just simply that lazy that they don't want or desire real work like the rest of us. What about the people who "want" to stay in that area because drug running is good money?

While I agree education is a great thing for those who want it, it is not a silver bullet.

Your statement: "Obviously, Obama wants guns out of the inner cities that is clear, but that doesn't mean he wants them out of the middle class, and I have to agree with him."

My reply: Obama wants guns out of people's hands, regardless of where they live. Are there no middle class citizens living in the cities? Where does the regulation end? What, I can't own a gun if I live in a certain city or state? Where does that end?

The sad reality is this ... criminals will have guns whether they are legal or not... thus the definition of a "criminal".

[tlarkin]

There are NO middle class citizens in the area of town I am talking about. I go in there every now and then to hit up one place in general (bad ass authentic mexican place) but I definitely don't stick around in that area for too long. People get robbed there every day.

The problem is Larry, is that you believe what you want to and listen what you want to regardless of what is factual and what is blown out to fit an agenda. The whole purpose of the voluntary searches in DC, were to help out the community of people who did wan to take their city back and get rid of crime. If you knew someone was harboring drugs and illegal guns and causing crime, you could snitch on them and turn them. That is really what the voluntary DC gun searches were about. If your kid was in trouble and falling in the wrong crowd you can have your house voluntarily searched. Obviously, criminals are going to say no for the most part.

Just like the immigration statistics being tossed around right now. All of the non biased actual researches going on have stated there is an estimated 14 to 20 million illegal immigrants. So the people who want the immigrants here go with the low number while the people using the scare tactics go with the high numbers. While they do cost us a lot of money, they also give about 9 billion or so in taxes to the IRS, since the IRS does not even check if you are a citizen, they just take your money regardless (go figure). However, that estimated 9 billion does not change the fact that our nation takes 100s of billions to maintain our infrastructure alone, so yes they are costing us money, but the actual dollar amount is extremely subjective. All you see though is people taking sides by blind faith of their political belief or party and spitting out a bunch of biased propaganda.

Saying all poor people are just lazy and want to run drugs is pretty ignorant. Running drugs is probably hard and stressfull work, but the profit margins are substantial. When you are gaining a 500% profit on your investment, and selling it at an extreme rate, you won't want to go flip burgers with your G.E.D. (if you have one) when you can turn $5k into $20k.

We all know all Muslims are terrorists, All republicans are bible thumping freedom haters, and all libers are anti-gun pro socialist, which is also unamerican...

The difference between us is that I try to read between the lines and find compromise, where you stick to your guns (pun intended) with your political party no matter how asinine it gets. You have been fear mongered by the right side, and no matter what I say to you, you won't want to hear, because you only choose what you want to hear. However, if I were to lay out information to you in a non biased, non oppressing manner by means of education, to help you better understand a different view and perhaps find compromise and common ground that we can stand on, then I have already accomplished more than any politician or media outlet ever can.

I hate both the extreme liberals and conservatives, and don't like either republicans nor democrats, they are all pretty much the same thing with two different ends of a media machines causing fighting and arguing between parties when most people tend to agree with over half the issues in our nation.

Education is the key, because if you can educate someone to actually think for them self then you have someone like me who reads in between the lines and can see where the bias comes from.

Like my example earlier, I know immigration is a problem and you can I can agree with that, however you see it as being something that it may not be because you are falling into that scare tactic of the media. All the numbers are subjective by level of education, race, and age, and each of the categories affects us differently. It affects white people the least actually, and young people more. Since we agree it is a problem why can't we agree with some sort of solution that won't kill our economy for the worse or create more government. You and I can totally agree on all of those things.

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Originally Posted by troy2000

They can't override him without a 2/3 majority, Larry, which they'll never get on anti-gun legislation. And remember: the conservatives in this country twice elected Bush, who actually admitted he'd sign an 'assault weapons' ban if one crossed his desk. So how about we can the sarcasm, and hope McCain does have the cajones to use his veto?

Ya know, aside from me Troy, you are the only one on here who seems to be bothered by the fact that he said this. As others will say on here trying to defend this reprehensible statement claiming "he only said this for media points". Regardless of whether or not he meant it he did say it and one thing I can't stand is a lying politician. The question you have to ask yourself is: "Who was he lying to? Us? or them?

Remember this is a man who swore to uphold the constitution and said he thought the M-F Campaign Finance Bill was unconstitutional yet signed it anyway!

[LarryO1970]

Where did that assumption of all assumptions come from ?

So there are NO middle class citizens living in cities? Yes or no ... ?

Are you for illegal-immigration? Simple yes or no ... ? Where this came from in this subject, I have no idea... you brought it up.

I've been a cop for 15 years and I have no idea what I'm talking about? Get over yourself...

My statement: tlarkin ... some people are just simply that lazy that they don't want or desire real work like the rest of us. What about the people who "want" to stay in that area because drug running is good money?

While I agree education is a great thing for those who want it, it is not a silver bullet.

Your answer: Saying all poor people are just lazy and want to run drugs is pretty ignorant. Running drugs is probably hard and stressfull work, but the profit margins are substantial. When you are gaining a 500% profit on your investment, and selling it at an extreme rate, you won't want to go flip burgers with your G.E.D. (if you have one) when you can turn $5k into $20k.

Retort : Uh, where did I say "ALL" poor people? You also strengthened my point by pointing out the profit margin. Would you leave that profit margin if you didn't have to?

What, no inner city kids have a college degree and only a *maybe* a G.E.D.? Talk about your assumptions...

Your statement: We all know all Muslims are terrorists, All republicans are bible thumping freedom haters, and all libers are anti-gun pro socialist, which is also unamerican...

Retort: Yeah... the sarcasm is dripping off this one. Did I say all terrorists are Muslim? Did I say all Republicans are bible thumpin freedom haters? Did I say ALL Liberals are anti-gun pro Socialist? Seems to me you are generalizing everyone for the rest of the people here. Ever hear of Timothy McVeigh or even Ted Kaczynski ? They were Muslim terrorists, right? Look at Troy2000 ... he is a Liberal (self proclaimed, not by me) and he loves guns. Your argument is waining ...

Whatever...

I stick to my guns (pun intended) because I will not compromise or give up my rights as an American. Maybe you will... but I will not.

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

Ya know, aside from me Troy, you are the only one on here who seems to be bothered by the fact that he said this. As others will say on here trying to defend this reprehensible statement claiming "he only said this for media points". Regardless of whether or not he meant it he did say it and one thing I can't stand is a lying politician. The question you have to ask yourself is: "Who was he lying to? Us? or them?

Remember this is a man who swore to uphold the constitution and said he thought the M-F Campaign Finance Bill was unconstitutional yet signed it anyway!

IMHO ... a Freudian Slip by Obama.

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

No Mitch, I am more concerned with the War, the economy and poverty and my other rights as well, not just the 2nd. I won't vote for someone that will screw this country over 1 amendment, since all of our rights are important.

Given that the right wing and NRA has been fear mongering gun owners for years about how the left will take them away for good, and I don't fully buy into it.

Now, what I do agree with is perhaps the Democrats will restrict guns, but ban them is kind of outlandish. Plus like I said, it would take the military to collect them from all of us.

Is the 2nd amendment so important to you that you are willing to sacrifice everything else?

Gads, dude. What fear mongering? Many of the leftwing loonies outright SAY they want to take away the guns. Why not just take them at their word? Restricting guns is unconstitutional. If the Demwits want to do that, they will do anything.

The 2nd helps guarantee all the rest of the Constitution. That is why it is so important.

[tlarkin]

Larry, there are no middle class people living near the ghetto where the murders and other violent crimes happen every day that make the news. I said that part of town, of course there are rich people in the city, but they live in the rich parts with very little violent crime compared to the poor parts. No, not everyone from the poor part of town is stuck there, few get out and go on to college, there is always an exception.

I am for illegal immigration - no, however I don't buy into the scare tactics or the reassuring tactics. It is a problem, but being blown out of proportion by some, and not taken serious enough by others.

Again, you are only hearing what you want. I never said you are ignorant, I said you are so opinionated and stubborn you can't compromise with anything, and you buy into the mass media. Dude we agree on half of the issues we argue about...LOL

Mitch,

Many of the right wing conservatives want chips in our bodies and want abortion illegal, but they won't get that either. Whats your point? Sounds like you have been listening to your biased media outlets as well though.
They also want prayer in schools but that ain't gonna happen either.

Extremist do not represent the whole party and yet we seem to lump everyone into the same category which is why liberal and conservative should not be used to describe a political party, they should be used to describe your stance on something is all.

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

Larry, there are no middle class people living near the ghetto where the murders and other violent crimes happen every day that make the news. I said that part of town, of course there are rich people in the city, but they live in the rich parts with very little violent crime compared to the poor parts. No, not everyone from the poor part of town is stuck there, few get out and go on to college, there is always an exception.

I am for illegal immigration - no, however I don't buy into the scare tactics or the reassuring tactics. It is a problem, but being blown out of proportion by some, and not taken serious enough by others.

Again, you are only hearing what you want. I never said you are ignorant, I said you are so opinionated and stubborn you can't compromise with anything, and you buy into the mass media. Dude we agree on half of the issues we argue about...LOL

Mitch,

Many of the right wing conservatives want chips in our bodies and want abortion illegal, but they won't get that either. Whats your point? Sounds like you have been listening to your biased media outlets as well though.
They also want prayer in schools but that ain't gonna happen either.

Extremist do not represent the whole party and yet we seem to lump everyone into the same category which is why liberal and conservative should not be used to describe a political party, they should be used to describe your stance on something is all.

OK, who wants to FORCE us to be microchipped. I expect cites. Salon.com doesn't count.

The only "chipping" that I've heard of is in conjunction with the Demwits massive health care system. You know, the one that will break the country, lower medical care standards, and allow Hillary to dictate food consumption, smoking, and any other bad habits that American might have. After all, the Dems don't want the Socialist Healthcare System to break down because of fat people.

You may yet see abortion made illegal as an alternate birth control method.

There IS prayer is schools! Kids can gather and pray. It's part of the Forst Amendment thingy you keep harping about. Besides, no one has yet been able to explain how a restriction on Congress not to endorse or create a religion has one solitary thing to do with school prayer.

The extremists OWN the Demwit Party right now. This happened when the Communist morphed into liberal Democrats in the 1960/1970's. Liberals are no longer "liberals". They promote a long standing Communist/Socialist platform that has been around for 100 years. US Liberals would be a joke except for the danger they present.

[LarryO1970]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

Larry, there are no middle class people living near the ghetto where the murders and other violent crimes happen every day that make the news. I said that part of town, of course there are rich people in the city, but they live in the rich parts with very little violent crime compared to the poor parts. No, not everyone from the poor part of town is stuck there, few get out and go on to college, there is always an exception.

I am for illegal immigration - no, however I don't buy into the scare tactics or the reassuring tactics. It is a problem, but being blown out of proportion by some, and not taken serious enough by others.

Again, you are only hearing what you want. I never said you are ignorant, I said you are so opinionated and stubborn you can't compromise with anything, and you buy into the mass media. Dude we agree on half of the issues we argue about...LOL

Mitch,

Many of the right wing conservatives want chips in our bodies and want abortion illegal, but they won't get that either. Whats your point? Sounds like you have been listening to your biased media outlets as well though.
They also want prayer in schools but that ain't gonna happen either.

Extremist do not represent the whole party and yet we seem to lump everyone into the same category which is why liberal and conservative should not be used to describe a political party, they should be used to describe your stance on something is all.

So now you add "near the ghetto" to the description? Last I read, it was the inner city.

I base my opinions on facts I know as a 15 year LE officer, not the media. Secondly, I am not your "dude"... did anyone ever teach you respect?

Illegal immigration... so to you, all those before us who did so legally are chumps for not just running the border? Do you want to give up your job to an illegal alien so that someone can save money on your salary? It is not blown out of proportion... ever see a fully white or black landscaping or sheetrock crew? No ... you haven't unless you are from Canada. These jobs are populated with illegal Mexicans. Try yelling INS when you drive by a job site and see how many run away. There will be our answer.

Your statement: No, not everyone from the poor part of town is stuck there, few get out and go on to college, there is always an exception.

Retort: tlarkin ... some people are just simply that lazy that they don't want or desire real work like the rest of us. What about the people who "want" to stay in that area because drug running is good money?

No kidding !?

Gangs... how about those MS-13 illegal immigrants who target cops for initiations? Not a problem, huh? Not blown out of proportion when LE officers are gunned down for the fun of it? Maybe I should get you in touch with Departments who are losing officers to "initiations" of MS-13 gang members? Would you like that?

Illegal immigration is a problem... whether you want to believe it or not.

[tlarkin]

Larry, you have given me no reason to respect you, but I do try to understand where you are coming from and you just keep picking away at what I say and argue.


I am not even going to bother to explain my points again, and am done with this thread

good day

[LarryO1970]

Seems to me you can't justify your statements... nor will you see my educated, experienced side of things...

So, I'm supposed to give in and agree with you all the while abandon my convictions?

Pretty weak on your part...

[TexasT]

You guys suck.

[LarryO1970]

Thanks TexasT ...

[mym1a]

Originally Posted by troy2000

I suppose the number of people who think pointing out the difference between a Nazi and a Communist is just 'splitting hairs' is just another indication of how uninformed the average American is.

That's like saying a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew are all pretty much the same thing. Go to the next neo-Nazi get-together in your neck of the woods, and see what happens when you tell them the difference between them and a Commie is just splitting hairs...

there are so many names for the same thing troy2000 I don't have the time to split hairs all I know any group that wants to control another persons life is dangerous you may want to sit and recite websters dictionary but to me they are all equaly dangerous, regardless of who they are affiliated with. 'thats my humble opinion'!

good to hear from you again troy2000