452AA What can you tell me about it?

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by thaddy1978, Mar 11, 2009.

  1. thaddy1978

    thaddy1978 G&G Newbie

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    I have some Winchester 452AA Ball Powder that's probably at least 30 years old. Does anyone have any recipe for it for 12 ga? I can't seem to find much in this one. Was it replaced by something better? Can I use it for anything else I have (.357, 32acp, 8mm, 303 brit, nagant, Ithica 12 ga)? I read somewhere that it was terrible to use in 38/357. I guess my primary question would be regarding the 12 ga though.
  2. jimkim

    jimkim G&G Newbie

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    Depending on what chart your looking at it has about the same burn rate as HP-38 and W-231 or 700X and Green Dot. Ed Harris says it is slightly faster than W-231. I'll go with that.

    BerdanIII Wrote:
    Win 452 AA Powder - Page 2 - Cast Boolits

    *****Warning: Win 452AA is temperature sensitive. *****
  3. thaddy1978

    thaddy1978 G&G Newbie

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    Any further info on this little detail?

    Also, does that book have anything on 12 ga shotgun loads? That's likely what I will be using it for. Thanks for the great info!!!!!!!!!!
  4. jimkim

    jimkim G&G Newbie

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    The details can be found in the link. I wasn't familiar with it. That's why I put the link in.

    12 Gauge 2 3/4" Dan Arms Plastic Case Data
    8-fold crimp w/.470-inch brass head. (Handloader #122 - July, 1986)
    Shot 1 1/8oz
    Powder W-452AA
    22.0gr
    CCI 209M primer
    WAA-12 wad
    1255fps
    LUP :9900


    2 Gauge 2 3/4" Fiocchi U.S. Target Hull Loads
    High basewad hulls. Ballis

    Shot 1 1/8oz
    W-452AA
    20.5gr
    Fiocchi 616 primer
    Fiocchi wad
    1185fps
    LUP:10,270

    That's all I have. My advice would be to find an old Lyman manual.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2009
  5. gandog56

    gandog56 G&G Enthusiast

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    I used to use it when I reloaded shotshells. That and Red Dot.
  6. FortyXDM

    FortyXDM Super Moderator

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    Make sure it is good to go before loading up a buch. Smell can be the first indicator of improper storage. If it has a vinegar smell, it has/is going bad. If it was stored properly, it should be fine.
  7. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    At 30yrs of age,I advise loading it in your fertiliser spreader and shooting it all over your lawn! (you don't even need primers) sam.
  8. thaddy1978

    thaddy1978 G&G Newbie

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    Nah, nah, nah, the stuff lights up just fine. I have to admit to making a few potentially dangerous assumptions and possibly even more dangerous decisions--

    I knew grandpa used to reload shotgun...after all, it's his reloader I now have. He had over 1000 winchester primers and the 452AA. The Duomatic 375 already had the shot and powder bushings in it. He also had some already once reloaded and shot hulls in a bag. So, I took everything he had and assumed that is all what he was using 30 years ago and loaded 6 rounds and shot all of them. Seemed fine, so I loaded 50 more and shot most of them.

    The problem...CHS (Couldn't Hit Sh...Crap). Clay birds were flying and I didn't hit one out of 30 shots. I have never been that bad. I don't know if they were under powered, or what? They sounded like a loud pop-gun, vs. a shot gun. Recoil was perhaps on the lighter side of normal. Folks I was with heard the off sound of me firing and a few times said, better check that barrel, but no issues or real signs of any problems. The sound was totally different from any I've heard coming from a shotgun.
  9. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    Oh well,I wouldn't expect powder that old to act normal.Can't help you any further. sam.
  10. thaddy1978

    thaddy1978 G&G Newbie

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    Sam, you reckon that crap came out of my gun looking like it were a fertilizer spreader? Perhaps that's why I couldn't hit anything! :hitwithrock:
  11. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    Ha ha,thats funny.I think you were loading on the side of caution or else the powder was weak.Commonly real old powder gains strength,but can lose.That means no load chart will be right which ever way it goes.I just don't mess with powder that has been stored for a long time in conditions I don't know about.If stored in climate controlled conditions it will be good a long time but usually it has had several climate changes and is questionable.I don't use any powder I have questions about. sam.
  12. jimkim

    jimkim G&G Newbie

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    Was it a hot day or cold day. Hot day with that powder equals slower burn rate and cold day equals faster burn rate. At least that's what they said in that link. It sounds backward to me. If it was properly stored it should be fine. Does it smell ok?
  13. GlockMeister

    GlockMeister G&G Enthusiast

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    Leave it to good ole jimkim to have or come through with the info.

    If anyone has it, knows where it is or where to look, it's jimkim.


    EDIT:
    I thought I would and should add, jimkim isn't the only one. Not to take anything away from him. It's just that there are quite a few very knowledgeable members that tend to help us and come through with good stuff.

    Personally, I'd like to thank them all. You know who you are. I prefer not to name them all as i'd probably forget one or two. lol
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2009
  14. billy

    billy G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    yep
    he's crazy that way....:)
  15. wunhunglo

    wunhunglo G&G Newbie

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    Have you patterned the loads? That would be the first thing to do.
  16. deadzero

    deadzero G&G Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    so this does happen? are any other powders like that?

    why I ask is, many years ago I was hunting in some extremely cold conditions (single digits mid day). at the end of the day when we were all back at camp warming up by the bon fire we all unloaded our side arms into some targets. case extraction on my wheelgun was difficult. (first thought was pressure went high) these were top end loads since we were hunting in bear country. any rounds out of that batch fired before or after that had no problems but were not subjected to that low of temperature.
    I had always figured that lower temps would slow the burn rate somewhat but that one occasion made me wonder.

    sorry for getting a bit off topic on this.
  17. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    Cold weather does lower powder function.Often you need magnum primers in extremely cold conditions and fps will be lower.As jimkin stated,someone got it backwards.In the NRA Firearms Fact Book it states "For the IMR powders,'each change of temperature of 1 degree F. changes the muzzle velocity by 1.7fps in the same direction." sam
  18. deadzero

    deadzero G&G Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    thanks sam, then my second assumption must have been correct. I've done a much better job of removing case lube since then.
  19. jimkim

    jimkim G&G Newbie

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    Blue Dot has a reputation for higher pressures in cold weather too. From what I've read both it and 452AA seem to have the same problem. Google "temperature sensitive powders reloading" . There are tons of data on this subject.
  20. TGF

    TGF G&G Newbie

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    The two stage powders like Varget are supposed to be non-temperature sensitive. Also for ball powders because they pack so densely in the case you are supposed to use magnum primers. That could be part of your problem you aren't getting good ignition.
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