Carbine Recoil?

Discussion in 'Mosin Nagant' started by SynthMusician, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. SynthMusician

    SynthMusician G&G Newbie

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    I keep hearing from everyone I talk to about Mosin Carbines kicking worse than their big brothers. OK I'm not sure of the physics involved but can someone explain why? Is it just the lighter gun or is there something else going on I'm missing. And if it is a weight issue wouldn't adding weight solve the problem?
    Thanks
    Mark
  2. TexasGunNut

    TexasGunNut G&G Newbie

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    I have two 91/30s and one M44, Mark, and I've not noticed much difference in the recoil between them. Maybe the added weight of the bayonet on the M44 makes it close to the weight of the 91/30. I haven't weighed them to find out if that is true or not. I'm just speculating.
    It seems to me the MN recoil is a little more than that of the M1 Garand. My Garand loads utilize 46gns of powder which is about 1.5gn less the the max for IMR 4895.

    Michael
  3. Rex_Lee

    Rex_Lee G&G Newbie

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    I have a 91/30 and an M44, and the M44 kicks about TWICE as much. When I let other people shoot, no one wants to shoot more than 1 or 2 rounds through the m44, but will shoot through the 91/30 until I take it away.

    P.S. you can't compare the garand, because the semi-auto action absorbs a good percentage of the recoil. It does not feel like shooting a bolt action mosin, or even a bolt action .30-06 for that reason. Much less recoil.
  4. 9mmXDm

    9mmXDm Suspended

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    I own a M91/30 and an M44. I'd say the M44 kicks a little more for me, but nothing where I wouldn't want to shoot it every hour every day every month every year!

    I put 203gr SP's in the M91/30 for my dad the first time he shot it and he said it kicked like a mule. Now I haven't put 203gr SP's through the M44 yet, so I cannot compare the two. I will say the with 203gr SP's the M91/30 def. kicked more then it does with 147gr-149gr FMJ rounds.
  5. 99dragon99

    99dragon99 G&G Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    The difference in recoil would have to do with the weight of the rifle, the weight and velocity of the bullet.

    A 180 gr Wolf Gold FMJ Muzzle Velocity 2579fps has a recoil of:
    M91/30 weight 8.8lbs recoil 15.1ft-lbs
    M38 weight 7.5lbs recoil 17.8 ft-lbs
    M44 weight 9lbs recoil 14.8 ft-lbs

    Between a 91/30 and an M44 there is not much difference, but there is a slight difference between those two and the M38.

    It's about the same difference as:
    270 Win 150gr @ 2850fps recoil 14.8 ft-lbs
    and
    30-06 180gr @ 2700fps recoil 17.8 ft-lbs

    So there can be a big difference. (This is all mathematical, perceptions may be different).

    I usually only shoot very different rifles at the range, so I don't have a side by side comparison. I'll take a Mosin, Ruger .44 carbine, and a .223 out but I usually don't take both Mosins out on the same day.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  6. Zaitsev

    Zaitsev Suspended

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    In the military, if you shoot an m4 and then shoot an m16, you will notice a difference. Same with the m44 and the 91/30. It has to do with barrel length. A longer barrel disipates the recoil because the gases behind the bullet have a longer time to cool before exiting the barrel. Yes weight is a factor too. If you have a gun that has a normal thickness barrel, it will kick more than one with a bull barrel in the same caliber. The same goes for the length of barrel. So in the case of a 91/30, you have more weight due to longer barrel and more stock material.

    Of coarse felt recoil is a very personal thing that has many factors. The way you hold your weapon and the proper placement into the pocket of the shoulder have alot to do with it. The more you shoot your weapon, the less you will notice the recoil because your body will become acustomed to the felt recoil. I watch alot of shooters flinch before they pull the trigger. That tells me that they are all tensed up. Recoil will hurt more on a tensed shoulder muscle than in a relaxed shoulder muscle. A relaxed muscle will disipate the recoil evenly, rather than the butt of the gun slamming one hard area in your shoulder.
  7. 99dragon99

    99dragon99 G&G Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    The m4 weighs a pound less than the m16... same round, same action... of course there will be a difference.

    I have never heard of recoil dissipating. Heat, yes, but not recoil. The only thing that I have heard of is slow vs. fast burning powder. A longer barrel gives you more time to "push" the bullet out.


    Agreed, It is more the weight than the length.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  8. SynthMusician

    SynthMusician G&G Newbie

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    OK so here was my thinking, the longer the barrel the higher pressure that the barrel can generate. This in turn pushes the bullet out the muzzle at a higher velocity. Following Newtonian physics the higher the force applied to the the bullet the more recoil. Equal and opposite reactions remember.

    The Carbine with it's shorter barrel should in theory should generate less pressure so the the muzzle velocity of the round should be lower. (even more so on a counter bored barrel).

    It seems much of the rounds energy when fired from a carbine is released in a fireball outside the barrel, this adds no energy to the round but sure makes a spectacular light show, while the long barreled rifle burns most of the gas in the barrel generating much higher pressures and those are directly applied to the projectile. The higher pressure should cause the round to leave the barrel at a much higher velocity and thus should have more recoil. The only major variation I can see is weight. So if I'm not out of my mind (no comment please) the extra weight uses up some of the engery trying to get the firearm to move backwards as felt in recoil. The lighter the stock the less energy that is used to get it to move from it's static state and thus there is more energy to apply to your shoulder.

    M91/30
    8 3/4 lbs.
    4 kg. 48 1/2"
    123.2 cm. 28 3/4"
    73 cm. 45"
    114.3 cm.
    M44
    9 lbs.
    4.1 kg. 40"
    101.6 cm. 20 1/4"
    51.4 cm. 36 1/2"
    92.7 cm.

    M38 7 1/2 lbs.
    3.4 kg. 40"
    101.6 cm. 20 1/4"
    51.4 cm. 36 1/2"

    The M44 is the exception here but that could be caused by the extra forward weight of the bayonet.

    So if my theory holds correct adding that 2 pounds back to the M38 should make it kick much less than a M91/30

    Anyone?

    Seeya
    Mark
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  9. 99dragon99

    99dragon99 G&G Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    Well... from my original post... same bullet just different rifles.... we agree...

    A 180 gr Wolf Gold FMJ Muzzle Velocity 2579fps has a recoil of:
    M91/30 weight 8.8lbs recoil 15.1ft-lbs
    M38 weight 7.5lbs recoil 17.8 ft-lbs
    M44 weight 9lbs recoil 14.8 ft-lbs
  10. roggom

    roggom G&G Enthusiast

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    All being said you are correct the longer barrel allows for more pressure in turn more velocity and muzzle energy= more recoil

    I think the disconnect is mass. We tend to think of mass as equal to weight although it does contribute to mass, it is not the same.

    I am thinking because of the distribution of the mass over the length of the barrel a variable of weight distributed over the same space, or the effect of gravity over the entire length of the rifle is were we have more opposition to the transfer of energy.

    I have a 7" length of a cut barrel with the iron sight, it weighs almost a pound. I did experience a noticable increase in recoil using the same ammo in the now shorter rifle.

    Also the amount of time for the transfer of energy results in a softer recoil (if that makes sense)

    What do you think?
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  11. Zaitsev

    Zaitsev Suspended

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    I think I feel pretty stupid reading your guys' very educated posts. You guys are a wealth of knowledge and info.
  12. SynthMusician

    SynthMusician G&G Newbie

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    Your correct in it's how quickly that energy is released over a longer barrel that makes for a lower impact curve, there are other factors as well at work such as friction etc, but for this lets just stick to energy. I've been wanting to try this out using an accelerometer to see how much impact is actually at the shoulder on various firearms. I understand that mass is not the same as weight thanks for saying that because I forgot too, BUT here is what I thinking, IF I added a mercury damping system into the stock on the M38 from MERCURY RECOIL SUPPRESSORS, RECOIL REDUCTION, REDUCE RECOIL IN SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES I could add that extra 16oz and with mercury being so dense it should take more effort to accelerate the firearm so the perceived impact should be much less offering a smoother impact curve. This will also add more mass to the gun making it much more tame to shoot (in theory) mercuryrecoil says they'll make custom sizes as well. I'm thinking of adding a dampening system and a recoil pad might just tame the recoil beast to something that you could shoot all day
    Thanks for the input
    Mark
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  13. roggom

    roggom G&G Enthusiast

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    How about an experiment, next one to go to the range with thier carbine. Set up and using a gunrest and 2lb or what ever sandbag weigh the barrel down, then the buttstock and then with no additional weight. Just to see if the weight distrubution is relative.

    We experience muzzle rise and I think somehow the wieghted barrel will have more effect.

    Or how about a M44 with the bayonet extended vs retracted?
  14. SynthMusician

    SynthMusician G&G Newbie

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    Dude what you posted earlier was cool made me have to think a bit more on what I was theorizing.. Thanks for the input
    Mark
  15. gandog56

    gandog56 G&G Enthusiast

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    You're shooting a squirt if it don't hurt!
  16. roggom

    roggom G&G Enthusiast

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    Then again shooting cast bullets with 12.5gr of TrailBoss and you can shoot one handed. But that is a different story.
  17. SynthMusician

    SynthMusician G&G Newbie

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    The problem is how to measure the actual recoil. You need to do several shots without the weight to establish a starting point. Then adding the weight take several more to see if there is any variation. The problem is unless you use a measuring device of some kind you'll not get proper results. I was even thinking of a fishing scale that the gun would pull and see if there is a difference in pull. Not sure yet exactly how to do this.
    Thanks
    Mark
  18. WisconsinHunter

    WisconsinHunter G&G Newbie

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    The carbine does kick more than the 91/30...but either way, I think the recoil of a Mosin is over-hyped. Just me I guess. :dunno:
  19. roggom

    roggom G&G Enthusiast

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  20. No Man

    No Man G&G Addict

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    My Polish M44 carbine kicks far less than my M91's although it has far more perceived muzzle flash. I will sent it to gandog for proof of concept testing and have him confirm my initial findings. Newton doesn't have $hit on me.

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