Here we go again .276 yes/ no30cal./276??

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by eclancy, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. eclancy

    eclancy G&G Newbie

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    Gentlemen,
    ...At this point in time I would think that SA is ready to attack US Ordnance. Files like this one are all in this time frame. Build the .30 Cal YES. Then an Order NO .30 Cal go to the .276 Cal. What about a .256 Cal. I don't know what do you think? How about a .276 Cal. and maybe then a .256 Cal. But keep working on the .30 Cal. What type of load for the ,276 Cal.? 140gr @ 2600fps. What if we go to the .256 cal. use the same 140gr @2600fps. Does someone have any idea about the .30 cal rounds. Don't look at me I just work here. That Gentlemen is what the files read like take about weird???
    Have fun

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    Thanks again for taking the time and effort to read this data. I hope you learn so data.
    Clancy
    ps could use some hits
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  2. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    I love these. Thanks for sharing. Isn't it interesting to see the developers wanting to make the design even more revolutionary. And the Army brass sitting on millions of rounds and manufacturing ability of '06. And the M1 we know and love is a compromise between the two.

    It reminds me of the Italians and their 7.35 Carcano. It was a much better round, but war is on and we've got all this 6.5 sitting around! Quick, we'd better switch back to 6.5!

    It reminds us that circumstances can really shape history.
  3. jerry

    jerry G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    Govt operation
  4. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    Very true...Lazarus Long always said the definition of an elephant is a mouse built to government specifications!
  5. nathangdad

    nathangdad G&G Newbie

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    It was General Douglas McArthur

    Actually, McArthur killed the .276 even though it was preferred by the soldiers in testing as it provided an increase in the number of rounds in a Garand clip, was easier to handle due to less recoil, and the troops found it easier to hit targets due to less recoil.

    McArthur simply killed the .276 to stick with the .30-06 from his World War One experience.
    As far as I know McArthur never fired the Garand in either caliber before making his decision.
  6. Ben Hartley

    Ben Hartley G&G Regular

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    .30 or .276...

    The reason for MacArthur "killing" the .276 round and going with the .30 is really very simple: there was an enormous quantity of WWI-era ammo in storage.

    To have gone to the .276 round would have required modification of the light and heavy Browning machine guns and the BAR. Considering the scarcity of funding to develop the rifle, there most likely weren't any funds available for such modification. Remember, too, that the .30 Browning was the primary aircraft machine gun of that era, and was also in use by the Navy, if I recall properly.

    If, however, that had been done, then the .30 ammo would have been usable only in 1903 Springfield and 1917 "Enfield" rifles, which were in our massive war reserve stocks.

    Let's not forget that we began WWII with many troops still armed with an '03; hell, the USMC took Guadalcanal (?) with the '03, right?

    OK, let's assume adoption of the .276 round and retention of the .30 for all purposes other than a limited number of M1's chambered in the new caliber.

    Man! Have you just opened a real can of worms for the supply folks!

    One cannot consider the rifle caliber in a vacuum; the professionals must consider logistics.

    Ben Hartley
  7. eclancy

    eclancy G&G Newbie

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    Gentlemen,
    Even with the M1 .30 Cal Ball Ammo there was a major problem with logistics. The M1 Ball did not work well with the M1 Garand rifle. So Ordnance came up with M2 Ball ammo that did work well with the M1 Garand as well as all other .30 Caliber weapons.
    Thanks again
    Clancy
  8. Ben Hartley

    Ben Hartley G&G Regular

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    M1906, M1, and M2 ball

    Ed,

    I sure don't want to get into a spitting contest, but I don't quite agree with the "M1 ball didn't work in the Garand" contention.

    The following information is taken from Hatcher, MajGen Julian S., The Book of the Garand. Highland Park: The Gunroom Press, 1948. (Reprint, 1994)

    ====================

    Chapter 6 -- M1 and M2 Ammunition
    (pp 125-127, passim.)

    "...from the time Garand started his development until the beginning of World War II, ball ammunition was the basic ammunition for the infantry rifle, and during that period, the Army had in succession three different types of caliber .30 ammunition: the M1906, the M1 and the M2."

    "During World War I, the machine gun tactics in use made it desirable to have a very-long-range caliber .30 bullet. The flat base on the M1906 caused a heavy drag..." which resulted in an inability to to achieve extreme ranges. The M1906 had a cupro-nickel jacket, which caused "troublesome" (Hatcher's term) metal fouling. These considerations led to the adoption, in 1925, of the gilding metal jacketed boat tailed M1 bullet. The new bullet did not come into general use until ca.1934, when all the M1906 had been used up.

    "The M1 rifle was designed specifically for this long range ammunition, and all the tests leading to the adoption of the rifle were made with the M1 ammunition, which was the service ammunition when the rifle was standardized in 1936." (Hatcher, emphasis supplied)

    The rumor that the M1 didn't function properly with one-or-the-other of the M1 or M2 ball cartridges apparently began during the controversy surrounding the Johnson rifle tests in ca. 1940. A congressional committee asked the Chief of Staff to investigate. The report from the Chief of Ordnance reads, in part:

    "Each M1 rifle made is required to operate satisfactorily with both M1 and M2 ammunition before it is accepted." (emphasis supplied)

    ==================

    If you have other information, Ed, I'm perfectly willing to stand corrected, but Gen'l Hatcher is an accepted authority, after all.

    Seeing a "logistical nightmare" with several .30 caliber bullets doesn't hold water, either. Consider that AP was pretty much standard issue/use in combat. There were no functional problems shooting AP in the M1 rifle, were there? Ball, it is my impression, was relegated to training and for use during those times one couldn't get AP.

    Ben Hartley
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2007
  9. eclancy

    eclancy G&G Newbie

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    Sir,
    If you go to my site at:
    http://www,garandm1rifle.com
    there is a whole site setup about the problems with M1 Ball ammo and why it don't work well wit the M1 Garand. Read those files and you will see what was going on. BTW Hatcher was in BIG TROUBLE with his book on te M1 Garand.
    Thanks again
    Clancy
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