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Can't Get 'Er Clean

5K views 47 replies 18 participants last post by  writerinmo 
#1 ·
Got a small mystery (apologies for a long post)-

Took the AR47 to the range a few weeks ago and I've been cleaning the barrel ever since.

No exaggeration or hyperbole, here. Tried Sweet's 7.62 bore cleaner, Kroil, CLP, Slip2000, Hoppe's and Hoppe's Black. Nylon, brass and stainless brushes. Even jagged mild cleaning pads through the barrel. Even used bore polish.

Carb cleaner (non-chlorinated) and 92% alcohol after each different cleaner, as well.

I've soaked the barrel for 20 minutes with bore cleaners and a week with Kroil.

Somehow, I'm still getting dirty patches. Not slightly stained, but honest black patches.

I understand that direct impingement platforms can be dirtier, but...really?

When I light the bore, it 'looks' clean, but the patches- unless run through a thoroughly dry barrel- still come out dirty. With the Sweet's, they still have that blue tinge, too.

Anyone else have this problem? Am I over thinking this thing? Never had this issue before with pistols or 5.56 AR.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Maybe over cleaning.

My 'show' guns and kinda safe queens stay pretty clean.

Not so for my working guns. Especially not the barrel (unless it's something like a .22 which is getting leaded up and it's affecting accuracy. I don't get much copper fouling really ever in my centerfires and I don't want to wear the barrel more than I have to by over cleaning it; the bullet and powder kinda clean the stuff off as they go through. And if I do clean the bore I've got to shoot it again to get the cleaner out and it back to operating where it should be).

If the gun is shooting accurately and working why clean it ? If accuracy degrades there might be a problem and that's the point where I'd consider cleaning the bore.

When I do clean, I usually do so while dry--wiping gunk out of the receiver and off the BCG--occasionally using wet patches to get the rest out afterward (with a Kroil-oil mix which I run through the chamber area).

I DO occasionally dunk the BCG in my brew and let it soak for awhile (and wipe and brush off and lightly lube) and wipe out the receiver areas and chamber area (the left over lube makes the carbon loose). The thought process being that TOO much gunk in the chamber might impede function (but I have no reason to believe this in that ARs continue to operate even when really dirty). Sometimes I hose the guts of the lower down with Kroil or Silikroil (on the suppressed guns; I use EWL on the rest which is simply a wipe off and re-lube) to get accumulated junk out. Rarely do I disassemble the BCG, but I do make sure the ejector area is clear on the bolt and where the bolt meets the chamber. Not squeaky clean--nor does it need to be--just getting out carbon that's excessive from time to time.

This is even for suppressed guns which tend to run pretty dirty. The suppressors are mostly self-cleaning (on centerfires at least) and the gun is too to a large extent.

And I enjoy shooting and not cleaning. If it's more than 15 minutes or so every 500-1000 rounds I think I'm overdoing it.
 
#4 ·
I have an old 1943 Mauser like that .Just finally gave up and would just wipe it out with some Hopp's then oil it. It finally cleared up after about 10 trips to the range. Was a mystery to me too. STILL HAVE IT,STILL SHOOTS GOOD AND CLEANS UP WELL.
An older fellow told me it might have been cosmolined for a while and the stuff had to work itself out of the pours. :confused:Was he right, I don't know .But it did clear up with time, and it never effected accuracy.
 
#5 ·
Chrome lining, jerry. Ammo was Red Army and some Tulammo.

This is a hunting carbine. I wanted to make sure it cycled properly and identify any bugs before sighting in, etc. After the initial break in, the goal was to clean it well and start off with a clean weapon.

Never had this issue with the SKS and it uses the same ammo. But, as before, I've found direct impingement dirtier than piston.

TXplt- Yah, I could be cleaning too much. I've definitely stopped cleaning it until the next range trip.

The thought of wearing down the barrel occurred to me, too. She may just need to run a little dirty?

Thanks for the input, gents.
 
#7 ·
The solvents may be acting on the chrome lining?

DI or piston should not matter much in the barrel as much as inside the action.

Is the ammo straight bi metal (looks like silver bullets) or copper wash? I have some Tulamo without the copper wash, which is very thin. That said, not sure about the uncoated bi metal bullets and how they affect a barrel?
 
#8 ·
The solvents may be acting on the chrome lining?

DI or piston should not matter much in the barrel as much as inside the action.

Is the ammo straight bi metal (looks like silver bullets) or copper wash? I have some Tulamo without the copper wash, which is very thin. That said, not sure about the uncoated bi metal bullets and how they affect a barrel?
Ya--luckygunner did a test on this which was posted on the site awhile back. It was for a .223 and the bi-metal bullet (not the case but the bullet) caused significant barrel wear over 5K rounds. It was during mostly one sitting kind of thing so it's unclear if it was throat erosion or the bullet itself or both.

But the AK operates at lower velocities and was Russian designed to begin with--and most 7.62x39 ammo that's cheap and in bulk is Russian and bi-metal. So it's kind of made for it and I just shoot my AK with it and not worry about it. The ammo is fine but kinda dirty and there's lots of 'stuff' that comes out as a part of the combustion and shooting process--and since it's DGI more of that stuff comes back into the receiver.

So I'm not usually surprised at strange by products and think you might have hit the nail on the head.

Just part of shooting the caliber.
 
#11 ·
^
Agreed. Still curious on the anomaly. I like to trouble shoot stuff.

My best guess is
1) Issue with the chrome process. It’s chemical so anything can happen to a batch. Very unlikely.
2) It may be possible that the chrome has some peaks and valleys, micro pitting or other defects that won’t necessarily affect accuracy.
2b)However, if bullet material from bi metal projectiles fill the voids if you will, it could take more effort and longer time to remove the fowling.

I think more round count may finish smooting the chrome layer out. There is probably a sweet spot from smoothed out to actually starting wear like on the lucky gunner testing.
 
#14 ·
This is VERY unusual for an AR barrel to do.

How many rounds did you shoot before you cleaned it?

What manufacturer made it? Have you contacted them about it?

As far as folks saying you can clean a barrel too much, I say hog wash! It gets manufactured "clean" and stays that way until test fired at the factory. ALL of my guns get cleaned every time they are shot. And they are cleaned until NOTHING stains a clean patch. Amazingly enough, they stay just as accurate as the day I bought them brand new.
 
#15 ·
^^^

70 rounds, Ten Man. Mostly Red Army hp with maybe the last 5 Tulammo.

I've shot the stink out of Tul and RA with the SKS and never had this problem. I'm going to run a few patches through it tonight and post the results if they're the same.

Even the Tul .223 didn't do that.

My only goal is to start with a clean barrel and see how it performs from that baseline.

A gunsmith buddy said to hit the range again, fire 10 or so rounds and then clean.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Well, I'll just say be careful and defer to the Dean of Barrel making (the late Gale McMillan--who along the way became a flight engineer in the AF FWIW)

"Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling. Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone.....To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee. Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB."

And when it comes to barrel break in,

"As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.

Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it."

Kindly note that after cleaning it WILL take a few more shots for the barrel to settle down again (or at least it takes mine). I guess they're not 'wasted' shots in that they're fun, but they usually don't go to POA for me. Not TOO much of a difference, but some.

And maintain over cleaning does more harm than good. EVERYTIME you run something through a bore you are causing some abrasion. Some stuff less than others. Nylon strangely enough can be surprisingly abrasive.

My guns usually get cleaned before they get put in storage if they aren't going to be used for awhile. And if accuracy starts to drop off (although the only real time I've actually seen this on a centerfire is in a very dirty AR--and it was cured by cleaning out the chamber area--I suspect that some build up was giving inconsistent headspacing but that's conjecture). And to keep the actions working.

But I'd continue to assert you can do far more damage by over cleaning a gun (and barrel) than simply leaving it alone.

Bottom line is if you are having accuracy or function problems then I'd clean. Also if exposed to some extreme environmentals which might cause corrosion (marine climate, etc). Or potentially after using a hunting rifle exposed to some outdoor climate extremes which isn't likely to be used anytime soon. Modern day powders and primers are non-corrosive and don't attract rust. But if it's just things look a little screwy and the gun is performing and shooting well I'd let it be (I'm assuming the ammo you are using is modern non-corrosive ammo).
 
#17 · (Edited)
Newer powders ,even in the cheap wolf stuff, aren't very corrosive.At least not like they used to be. Like I said ...with mine',
I finally quit beating my brains out over it. Took it out and enjoyed it.
Gave it a regular cleaning 1 very wet, 3dry patches of Hopps cleaner and 1 light oil patch each time and eventually it started giving me clean white patches on the third dry patch.
Never did corrode, or get shot out and is still more accurate than i can shoot with the iron sights.
:eek:Take advise from someone who knows what it is like to get anal over a gun.
:rolleyes:Stop pressing yourself and letting us aggravate you more. Go enjoy you're new gun and rest assured that if it does get shot out or corroded, people make new barrels every day, and yours is no good unless you can get use and enjoyment out of it.;):usa2:
 
#18 ·
I have always tried to use the same cleaners and de-coppering agents, and I believe that you get different results if the bore is scrubbed while still warm. I like Shooter Choice or Hoppes and I use a bronze brush for the scrubbing. If you are going to get the grime out you also need to remove the copper deposits, I have cleaned guns in the shop where you'd get a clean copper free (not blue green) patch; go back in with a clean brush and solvent and you come up dirty again at least for fouling...and you start the process again. This is especially common in high pressure small caliber rifles. You can try lapping your barrel, it is not really too hard to do, or you can have it done by a Gunsmith. Lapping polishes the lands and grooves and will leave a good barrel much easier to clean s there are less nooks and crannies for the fouling to adhere to.
 
#19 ·
Finger Thumb Chemical compound Lace
Many thanks again for the input, gents.

Just for transparancy's sake, I've cleaned a lot of barrels. Some modern, some black powder. A little fouling doesn't trouble me.

What does (did?) cause some 'Arrugh?' was the amount of rat nasty left on patches that traditionally should have been clean.

None the less, the AR got stripped again tonight and Baristol was applied with patches and a nylon brush.

Just a few patches-- enough to see if the barrel was even trying to come clean.

They actually came out cleaner than I thought they would. The two grayish ones at left are Baristoled. The three lighter ones are dry patch.

At this point, I'm leaving it alone until, hopefully, this weekend. Got a few boxes of Hornady Black to sight the rifle in.
 
#20 ·
I just picked up a complete AR upper in 7.62x39 from Classic Arms but it just arrived today so all I've done with it is pin it onto a lower and clean the bore. Hopefully can hit the range with it before the weekend, deer season is open already for archery here so I don't shoot on my little range behind the shop. The bore on mine actually had light rust in it, I guess they fired the three test rounds and then toss it in the rack without cleaning it...
 
#22 ·
My suggestion?

Get yourself some Gunzilla. Dribble a goodly amount of it down the barrel and then pull a bronze bristle brush through a couple of times to spread it around. Then let it sit overnight. Next day, wet the brush down with Gunzilla and scrub the bore with it. Then soak a patch with Gunzilla and pull it through, and see how much gunk you get on it.

Try running alternate soaked and dry patches through three or four times and see what you get. Then scrub with a soaked brush again if you are still getting gunk. Repeat until the patches come back clean.

My experience with Gunzilla is that it will get almost anything clean very quickly.
 
#24 ·
NIB, by no means, means unfired. Rarely does a gun manufacturer let a gun leave the factory without being test fired. I have customers bring guns back all the time telling me they ran a patch through the barrel and it was dirty. They always say, "this gun ain't new, its been fired."

Jaison - with your AR, keep the bolt and BCG clean and oiled. If you occasionally want to run a patch through the barrel, feel free. I have friends that have had guns for 20 years that have never seen a patch in their barrel....and they shoot great.

The only thing you need to worry with the AR is the bolt and BCG because powder get thrown back in their through the gas tube, and it can get a little messy. A messy firing group (bolt, BCG, trigger mechanisms) can result in misfires.
 
#25 ·
keep the inside of the AR clean.
I use a stag 6-H to shoot ground squirrels, and rock chucks and coyotes and sometimes paper.
the paper part is to confirm zero each spring and to check group size.[still under 1/2"]

it's been over 450 rounds since I took it out of the box.
it has had 0, none,nada,zip,sero cleaning other than the bcg.
I did buy some pipe cleaner thingy's for the day I do decide to clean it though.
 
#27 ·
Was thinking the same thing- maybe the gas tube? Odd as it may sound.

I got some long pipe cleaners and canned air to check it out after the next range trip.

Never had a gas tube get that dirty, but it won't hurt to check.
 
#31 ·
Try a stainless jag or patch holder instead of a brass one if brass is what you are using. Certain chemicals such as ammonia that are in a lot of the solvents we use reacts with brass and leaves nasty looking deposits on a patch that would never interfere with how the gun shoots. Also new barrels that are not high dollar items from a boutique mfg. that precision hand laps them and air gauges them in the manufacturing process are going to exhibit more initial wear when they are put into service due to those irregularities being burnished out of the bore with bullets, powder, patches, chemicals, and brushes, etc. I would shoot and clean and maybe avoid brass cleaning components, or solvents that react with brass to leave a grungy appearance.
 
#32 ·
Yeah....alot of screwy stuff can happen like this.

From time to time I shoot all copper bullets in some of my pistols and my .300 BLK (Barnes TSX makes a great round). I found that I was getting galvanic corrosion on the carry rounds (when I carried them in my GP-100) due to sweat (acting as an electrolyte) and the very active copper in the bullets with the difference in electrical potential of the various metals. Got spots on the bullet as well as corrosion on the brass--the chamber acting as a conductor for what was essentially a human battery lol.

In fact, I get the same kinda spotty thing on the factory Barnes rounds (but not as bad because they are in boxes). Doesn't hurt anything (I think) but copper is a very active metal.
 
#39 ·
Try some Bore Tech. It's by far the best solvent I've ever used and the fumes won't fry your brains while inside the house.

One of my older friends asked me if I could help him with a 1917 Eddystone that used to shoot great but not so much lately. Three days and who knows how much copper and carbon later, it was solid MOA rifle again.

Had I tried cleaning it with the usual solvents, I'd still be scrubbing....and I am not a paid spokesperson.:)
 
#40 ·
Happy day!

Zero'd the AR47 today at 25 yards in 4 shots. Shoots about 2" high at 50. Really a fun carbine to shoot.

Sighted in with Hornady Black. It has the polymer tip and is reportedly an excellent round for hunting.

Also, cleaned the barrel and had absolutely no problem getting clean patches after 4-5 passes. Guess the gunsmith buddy knew his stuff. Lol!

Will hit the range again before rifle season to prove zero is true. Other than that, this rifle is GTG.

Thanks for everyone's help. The dirty barrel issue was a real anomaly.
 
#41 ·
Happy day!

Zero'd the AR47 today at 25 yards in 4 shots. Shoots about 2" high at 50. Really a fun carbine to shoot.

Sighted in with Hornady Black. It has the polymer tip and is reportedly an excellent round for hunting.

Also, cleaned the barrel and had absolutely no problem getting clean patches after 4-5 passes. Guess the gunsmith buddy knew his stuff. Lol!

Will hit the range again before rifle season to prove zero is true. Other than that, this rifle is GTG.

Thanks for everyone's help. The dirty barrel issue was a real anomaly.
SOMETIMES these things can get under our craw :mad:and we just have to keep picking at them.Glad you finaly found a resolution.:cool:
 
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