18 year old woman awarded Silver Star

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Coeloptera, May 2, 2008.

  1. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera G&G Newbie

    washingtonpost.com

    Okay, 18 when the incident she got it for happened, 19 when she was awarded it.

    Army medic, Afghanistan, Charlie Troop, 4th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry Regiment, brave and capable as anyone serving.

    Why aren't women allowed in front-line combat roles? Especially support roles like medic.

    The article makes a very good point that in this day and age, the concept of "front lines" doesn't mean much. I'd think that so long as there is one standard for any duty, that should be fine. Differing standards for gender is just plain stupid. Psychologically, her unit seems fine with her being there and in danger as well.

    I also think some female instincts served her well in this role. When the ammo from the blown Humvee went, she threw herself over the wounded. She also kept the wounded men talking and conscious once they were in a vehicle.

    I doubt many women could do the duties of a SEAL or Airborne Ranger, but I think we're ignoring some of their natural strengths as well, especially in stressful situations where some of their natural inclinations may very well make them an optimal choice for certain duties.

    What bugs me is, after this incredible performance of her duties, she got pulled back to the US base in Khost. I mean, how much more could she have possibly proved that she could do the job?

    "Military officers in the field and independent experts have said it is both infeasible and contrary to the Army's own warfighting doctrine to prevent women from serving in proximity to -- or together with -- all-male combat units in today's war zones. They contend that if the goal of the policy is to protect women from capture or bodily harm, it cannot be done in the scramble of conflicts such as those in the Middle East."

    I don't know. I just think it's unfair and we may be missing out on some great women who can perform their duties as well as anyone. Maybe right now it's a rarity, but the military in general hasn't been very encouraging of women in the service at all. Maybe it's just a matter of finding the right roles for them where they'll shine.

    - Coeloptera
     
  2. Seabeescotty

    Seabeescotty G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    Corpsmen and medics are ALWAYS sheltered, and revered by their units. And HATS OFF TO THAT YOUNG LADY, for doing her duty above and beyond... Many commanders simply worry about what could happen to a woman who might be captured by the enemy. It would worry me, the atrocities committed against women are well documented. It's not a slight to their ability to served with valor, it's simply the mindset of most American men! We are raised to protect the women in our lives, against anything and everything!
     

  3. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Do you have any idea what they do to a captured woman, regardless if she is a Medic or not??? They will do it to make the men she is serving with do something stupid. How long could you just sit there listening to a woman scream for help and mercy before you did something stupid?? Think about it..... No women on the FRONT LINES, period.
    For everyones sake.
     
  4. oldjarhead

    oldjarhead G&G Evangelist

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    She should have been awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for her actions. I'm positively sure that those wounded soldiers didn't give a rats *** whether the person who took care of them was male or female; as long as it was a Medic (Corpman).
    There are some women who can deal with combat arms mos' but there are far more who can't.
    This soldier is one that can.
     
  5. HARDERTR

    HARDERTR Guest

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    Do you have any idea what they do to MALE soldiers they capture? Women scream just like men when they are tortured (and I don't mean just raped).

    I'm in charge of 27 male and female Soldiers. I have had to make choices about which soldiers to send outside the wire for "special missions". The FIRST thing I always look at is maturity. I have 3 male soldiers that I want to beat the hell out of almost everyday. I have 2 females just like them. I also have 2 females that I am, quite honestly, a little intimidated by. They are pretty HARDCORE. They are also both out doing some pretty high-speed stuff right now because they are on my "top 5 list". Those 2 women are doing a job my lesser male soldiers wouldn't be able to handle.

    Granted, I didn't put them on the door-kicking missions. I reserved those for my 2 guys that look and act like more traditional "Soldiers". The reason is more cultural (the impact of a big pissed off American MAN screaming at a terrorist to get down and shut up is a lot more efficient than a female doing the same - Muslim/Human psychology).

    Females don't belong on the front lines in a war like Vietnam or WWII, but they are sure doing a hell of a job in this war...where the front line is EVERYWHERE outside the concrete walls.
     
  6. oldjarhead

    oldjarhead G&G Evangelist

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    How long could you sit and listen for a male soldier scream for help and mercy before you did something "stupid".
    Is there a difference when it comes to this level?
    If a woman wants to serve on the line, she should be allowed to. If she is that gutsy, she'll understand the risk and consequences....period!


    Yeah, Gloria Steinham changed that train of thought.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker G&G Newbie

    Congratulations to this woman who served above and beyond the call of duty. We owe our Vets. more than we can ever repay.
     
  8. Rave

    Rave G&G Evangelist

    Didn't change it for me,I still feel that way. If there are any men or women out there that hate me for it,too bad.
    Been that way too long,find another younger man that feels the way you do,if I didn't feel protective of women I wouldn't feel like a man.
    Set in my ways.:drive:
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  9. I'm glad you joined the forums, HARDERTR. I'm not going to burden you by claiming you speak for everyone in uniform over there, but it's interesting to get your perspective on things in the middle of all the sounding off by us armchair generals.:)
     
  10. damage855

    damage855 G&G Newbie

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    +1 :usa:
     
  11. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    We had PUSSIES Marines as well. You will always have the Jerk who enlisted for the uniform and doesn't want to do the work or take the risks.
    This argument about women on the frontlines has been going on for decades, Iraq didn't just solve the problem, it is just a different type of war and it is hard to distinguish where the frontlines are, thus you can tell if a woman will be caught in a firefight.
    Men have a weakness for women and that is a Natural Instinct and one that will not change. Iraq is NOT the perfect example, nor is it the WHOLE picture of combat. I would NOT want to share a foxhole with a woman nor would I want to be sitting on the perimeter with a woman. The enemy knows about Americans and how we preceive our women and it doesn't matter how HARD CORE you are, you will always have a soft spot for a woman, regardless of your training. That SOFT SPOT could cost other soldier lives and/or yours. If you deny yo have that soft spot, then you are either Gay or a liar.
    Sure we had about 450 women at Camp Victory or Camp EAT and SLEEP, they were doing duties like everyone else, some convoys and admin and a good mix of everything else. Many of the male soldiers ending up sleeping with many of them and ended up with devorces when they got back stateside. I can name 4 right off quick. In 91 there were 3 POWS, when a female and two males went to a beach in Iraq and were having some SEX recreation when they were busted and captured.
    Hardeter
    You may be in charge of 27 soldiers and have some real pussies for males and some real good hard core men as well. S.H. You may have a female or two that can arm wrestle with the best of them, but still YOUR situation is not the situation all women will find themselves in.
    I know of a few Female Blackhawk pilots and they are doing a great job, I believe one was K.I.A.
    Overall women do NOT belong on the frontlines in combat. Now in Hard's case it is rather inmpossible to describe FRONTLINEs because it is Urban and it is just as hard to describe the enemy. Before you all have a field day, I have no doubt women have a ton of Courage, no doubt at all. The mix of men and women on a battlefield will sooner and not later lead to problems. This is not Isreal where both sexes are protecting the Homeland. It isn't right and unless you only send the Ugly females, which would be far from fair, you are going to create problems if there is a foxy soldier and all the men are eyeing her and you are trying to conduct and operation.
    Hard, you have an EXCEPTION and God Bless your female soldiers for doing an Outstanding job. Can all females do it? NO! can all Squad/Platoon Leaders expect the same results? Hell No! Will there be the same results in every unit? Hell No! again. Will there be some find females who do outstanding jobs? Hell YES! Will that give some sort of guarantee that every woman in every case will have the same results? Hell No!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  12. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera G&G Newbie

    They do it to men too.

    You know that. Same thing applies.

    And again, what "front lines"? That's part of the point here. Maybe we shouldn't have women lugging a 50 pound pack and an M4 in the infantry, but it's not possible to protect people the old way in the type of war we're fighting.

    And is there really that much of a discipline problem that a soldier couldn't keep his mind on the job if a woman happened to be attractive? LEOs do it all the time. I would hope their training and the fact that there are a lot more important things to worry about - like living, would take precedence.

    I think this is the new face of war. 60 years ago no one wanted blacks to serve as officers, either. They're doing just fine now.

    Here's a good example. Physiologically, women make better combat pilots. They have a greater ability to resist sudden pressure changes and "whiting out". This isn't arguable - physiologically, they have a distinct edge. But historically, the services have been resistant to having women in any sort of combat role, but that's changing, and I haven't heard any reports of female pilots messing up in any greater numbers than male pilots do.

    Honestly, Wingwiper, it may be a generational thing. Men do not seem to have an overweening "instinct" to protect women. There wouldn't be so many rapes, globally, if that were the case. Our culture encourages that, and that's entirely different.

    Oh, and HARDERTR, haven't seen you here before. Welcome! I think your attitude about this is fantastic. Stay safe out there, huh? And thanks for your service.

    - Coeloptera
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  13. Cyrano

    Cyrano Resident Curmudgeon Forum Contributor

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    I have to agree that, fighting spirit or not, women should not be in direct combat if it can be avoided. Quite apart from the biological imperatives ingrained in all of us men that say women shouldn't be in combat, in the cases of a war against an Islamic culture there is another reason. I have to go back 50 years to produce evidence support my feelings.

    During the 1956 War in Israel, the Israeli Army had some exclusively female combat units. Highly capable, as ruthless and cunning as any male combat unit, but composed of women. If the Arabs the Israelis were fighting found out the unit they were facing was made up of Jewish women, they would fight with the kind of fanaticism and tenacity we associate with the Imperial Japanese soldiers of World War II. Surrender or retreat were not options to Arab soldiers when fighting Israeli female units. They would fight to the last man and would not surrender, because their masculinity and personal honor were at stake. As a result, those Israeli units took horrifying casualties.

    After the '56 War, Israeli policy took women out of front line combat roles. I know that in the kind of insurrection going on in Iraq there is no front line as such, but the macho element is still very much in play. It's cultural and religious with the Iraqis, and that's a really bad combination.
     
  14. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    No! the SAME thing does NOT apply.

    No! the point was women on the front lines in combat. You said in the first thread
    Hard, was merely offering what he is witnessing in Southern Iraq and in situations where there are NO front lines. I don't think you will find any women in the Marines, in what were the real HOT areas such as Mosul, Fallujah, Ramadi or Tikrit or even the early months around Baghdad. The combat ops are scattered now and not concentrated as they were in the early months. (I am not saying there isn’t still sh-t hitting the fan, there is). Times like now would be fine for women to rotate and take some of the burden. When and if the SHTF again, back them off. If ONE male soldier is killed because of a concern over a woman, that soldier could have been spared by some common sense.

    Man has been chasing women since the caveman and you think some TRAINING is going to change that? Soldiers even in combat have sexual desires, they have concern over women and then have a spot that bugs the crap out of them if a women is hurt or crying. Those are traits embedded by nature over hundreds of thousands of years and traits that aren’t erased by training. Unless you have all GAY men. Then there would be such a Chinese Cluster f---… I couldn’t even bare to imagine it.

    Quite the difference not even close to comparing Apples to Apples.

    That is Not a GOOD example, that merely proves that physically women don’t black out under the same level of “G” force as men do. That doesn’t prove they are able to execute evasive or even aggressive maneuvering in a DOGFIGHT. Look, I am sure you will find a woman who will out perform a man in every single MOS, but they will be the rare example of the female species and not the dominant example. Not worth the risk. I love my wife and I respect women, but I also don’t think they are capable to do a lot of other jobs men can do and I can’t do jobs that they are better suited for.

    Do you think that the men who rape women represent men as a whole? Come on. that is a pretty poor comparision. There are women who kill their husbands, does that mean all women will kill their husbands?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  15. Marine1

    Marine1 Guest

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    I know a former female US Army Medic from Michigan, who was there about this time. She braved enemy fire to drag a wounded GI to safety, during a fire-fight. They refused to allow her to wear the CIB (Combat Infrantrymans Badge), not to mention, I think she should have received a silver star for her heroic actions. This took place several years ago. She is currently married to a LEO friend of mine here in Michigan.
     
  16. A tip of my hat to the lady. Truth be told, I think if every medic and corpsman who deserved a medal got one, they'd be making and shipping medals day and night.
     
  17. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera G&G Newbie

    Actually, the pilot thing is a perfect example. The military has been so resistant to letting women fly combat missions that we don't have the data yet, but I can't imagine such an incredibly mechanized form of fighting as dogfighting would make much of a difference in terms of performance. This isn't swordfighting here, it's a human being ensconced in a 50+ foot, several million dollar piece of equipment. You're so far removed from the fight that intellect and training matter. Yes, of course aggression matters, but women can be plenty aggressive, and when raw physical strength is removed from the equation and it comes down to flying and guiding your machine...why wouldn't they be able to perform aggressive maneuvers?

    See, again I think it's a generational thing. Your generation was trained, over and over, to see women as "weak", and I don't just mean physically. I get the impression (and please correct me if I'm mistaken) that you believe no woman could ever match up to a man in well...pretty much any task that isn't housekeeping or what have you.

    Our culture keeps trying to tell women that they are weak and incapable. They are conditioned, almost since birth, to feel that way. Men do have an absolute physiological advantage over women in terms of raw strength. There's absolutely no doubt about it, and roles wherein that's important should be left to men by and large.

    But how you are raised matters a lot. Russia used female snipers in WWII and their performance was lethal because they could exhibit great patience and precision. They also created the 588th night bomber squadron in 1941. A squadron composed of all women, from the mechanics to the pilots to the officers. In 1942 the squadron was flying 15-18 missions a night.

    Marina Raskova and the Soviet Women Pilots of World War II

    Tell me that doesn't prove women can certainly handle flying. In terms of raw endurance, women and men actually come pretty close to equal with equivalent training. Humans had to have great endurance early in our evolutionary history, all humans. You couldn't stop if some members of a group were tired, so it scaled out.

    Frankly, it may well be that women pilots could be superior to men, overall. In terms of pressure resistance and reflexes they do have that edge. We don't know yet, but it's not an impossible notion. I think this is far more a cultural notion than biological. I know a lot of men of my generation are less likely to think of women as weak and needing constant protection. I'll bet in 10-15 years you'll start seeing things like that become more accepted and regular.


    Frankly, I think women are so rare in a lot of roles because the environment is still so hostile towards them. It took a while for minorities to get into all the roles they wanted, too. If the establishment doesn't want them there, then it's going to be extra tough for them to break in and prove whether they really can do the job. Our culture also strongly discourages women from joining the service in any capacity. Tell someone they can't do something enough times and they might start to believe you...

    Hey, Txplt, you have any opinions on this? I imagine you may have some experience here.

    - Coeloptera
     
  18. TXplt

    TXplt Gun Toting Boeing Driver Forum Contributor

    Yes--first woman thunderbird came from squadron I flew with at one time. Great gal, and I'm glad she was the one picked to do this. When I first started in 1987 it was kind of an elite fraternity, but women were starting to go thru pilot training with us. There were the usual jokes and teething issues, and I think it's the same as anything else--racial, ethnic group, color, gay, etc. that people put down until they understand the situation -- people are people and it's the mindset not the gender (or race) that counts. When it comes to flying a fighter, I'd put a man and a woman on completely equal footing when it comes to physical requirements of the job, SA requirements, and ability requirements. Neither gender has an inherent "edge" save what role they've been taught in life. I know women who've pulled over 12 G's (a significant over-g for the airframe by the way) and could kick the *** of many of the guys in basic fighter maneuvering.

    Unfortunately, there are those who are out to make a point in life and exploit their race/gender/other differences to try to get attention for themselves and get their way. Fortunately, such people are very much in the minority in the forces (and are pretty easy to see through), and I ran across very few of these types (Kelly Flynn comes to mind as a situation gone bad, but we had not many of these types). The women fighter pilots we had did indeed "fit in" and were all in all a very valuable asset to the squadron. They could party like "one of they guys" and were capable, competent, and professional in all aspects when flying.

    I've been gunned by enough women (after a neutral setup) that I know they're very much as capable as employing a fighter effectively in combat as their male counterparts. The women in our squadron were as good, if not better, in grasping the concepts of aerial maneuvering, agressiveness, and weapons employment as the men. Women have the physical strength to effectively fly and employ anything we have, and the will to follow through. The environment today is very supportive of these professionals--so long as they're where they are because they are good at what they do. No one ever does anyone a favor by affirmitive action or quotas because it denies individuals the pride of standing on equal footing. The women combat pilots we have today I'd argue are very much capable of standing on equal footing in capability and competence as the men. On the flip side, both men and women pilots screw up at about the same rate. My opinion.

    This is something we need to watch in the days of terrorism--we find a woman maybe less threatening than a man; a benign looking woman could make a very effective terrorist.

    One thing I did forget--the physiological response differences under G for men and women for fighter (or trainer/aerobatics) employment IMHO aren't very much different. There's more variation in natural G tolerance between individuals within the sexes to make this not statistically significant. Additionally, G tolerance (as well as resistance to airsickness) is, with few exceptions, largely a developed not inherent skill (the Germans might disagree, but I'd be willing to argue the point based on my experience). Not alot different from skiing actually -- the first few days back skiing you're tired and sore; after you get back in the swing of things and learn how and which muscles to use it's alot less taxing in all respects.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2008
  19. Marine1

    Marine1 Guest

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    Females of War

    Nina Alexeyevna Lobkovskaya: Russian Sniper: (WWII, 308 kills)

    From February 1945 until the end of the war, Lobkovskaya commanded a company of female snipers who eventually participated in the Battle of Berlin.

    Roza Yegorovna Shanina: (WWII, 54 kills)

    Photo#1: Nina's Command

    Photo#2: Roza

    Women in War

    Russian; Women in War and Resistance
     

    Attached Files:

  20. jmp8927

    jmp8927 G&G Evangelist

    My personal opinion is that females shouldn't be the ones kicking down doors and clearing rooms or otherwise in close combat. Reason is only that they are physically weaker than males in general. I've seen some women that could kill a guy with one arm tied behind her back and I've seen wussy guys. But in general guys are physically stronger. As for support roles, if they want it, let them have it! Its their choice and for the record, I would rather have a pretty woman come doctor on me than an ugly man.

    Oh. And as the above. Short to medium range sniping I think would be good for women. Not something like Hathcock did where you spend days behind enemy lines, but rather sniping in urban settings where they have support covering them or something like that.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2008