[PaleHawkDown]

a rifle can,t be made into a pistol and this one was a rifle first. ck the batf rules.

There are some grandfathered exceptions. Original Obrez pistol conversions, for example. He didn't convert it. ATF might make an individual exception.

 

[PaleHawkDown]

There is a Stevens pump rifle to pistol conversion that has floated around gun auction sites, and it seems like it was granted an exception.

 

[okieguy55]

Thanks Mister Dave. It may be a 1909 then. I'm looking for markings, but the surface rust is covering a lot.

 

[okieguy55]

Eastland, therein lies the question. Was it a conversion or an original design? From the looks of it it could be original due to the grip frame and barrel treatment. Trying to find out.

 

[eastbank]

i believe it started life as a rifle and was cut down, by who i have no idea. if the barrel is at least 16" and over all is at least 26" long it may be legal

 

[MoosemanOK 684]

Thanks Mister Dave. It may be a 1909 then. I'm looking for markings, but the surface rust is covering a lot.

Very Carefully take some PB Blaster, or Automatic transmission fluid , and some 000 steel wool and oil the gun and gently rub the surface rust off. It may clean up nicely, just take your time.

 

[okieguy55]

East Bank, thanks for your reply. I have some better pictures. After closer inspection I really don't think it is cut down. The pistol frame is well integrated into the receiver, including the safety, much like a mossberg shotgun safety. The serial number is 107479A. So far Savage has not been able to identify

 

[MoosemanOK 684]

Well it certainly demands research and the pics show more detail now. Very Interesting to say the least. I wish I had more info to share on it. The Savage 1909 had long tangs that could have been reformed and butt end welded on . However one other thing caught my attention , the Rear sight location. The 1906 and 1909 had barrel mounted rear sights and an occasional tang mounted peep sight , Your Pistol has a rear sight mounted on the receiver top that none of the rifles I can find had...So that's an "Oddity" and makes more sense for a pistol that may have had a holster at some point. The safety is in the normal location for a 1909 rifle.
Rich.

 

[okieguy55]

Thanks Rich. If it's original and not altered, I believe it would be exempt from ATF short barrel rifle consideration. However, it is currently inoperable and at this time we have no intention of restoring function.

 

[Mister Dave]

I'm far from being any kind of gun expert.

My Duck-Fu found it to be a vintage Savage, probably 1909. I saw somewhere that the round barrel rimfire was made from 1909 to 1914. But gun forum chatter can be unreliable.

My Duck-Fu is strongly suggesting that this gun is one of one. I'd contact Savage and see what they can tell you. I don't know if they made prototypes back then, but if they did it might be worth more than $50.

 

[okieguy55]

Thanks Mister Dave. I have contacted Savage and all historical records before 1995 were transfered to Cody Wild West. I'm in contact with them as well. What a mystery. Thanks again to everyone for the input.

 

[MoosemanOK 684]

Thanks Rich. If it's original and not altered, I believe it would be exempt from ATF short barrel rifle consideration. However, it is currently inoperable and at this time we have no intention of restoring function.

Its a Pistol , Not a rifle ,it has no feature to accept a stock , it predates any Gun control act and its in the Curio and Relic and oddity stage , so ATF is not a concern as most of them guys don't know jack about guns . IF it is a prototype , 1 of a kind , or if only a few were made it would be well worthwhile having it cleaned, in working condition, and with a magazine.
IF it had a rifle stock and an 8 inch barrel that would be a whole other deal.to get ATF approval from their research dept and they must have the gun and that takes 1-2 years. I've dealt with them before on my H&R Linethrower gun, so forget them.

 

[Mister Dave]

The serial number is 107479A. So far Savage has not been able to identify

Wouldn't a serial number tell you if it was manufactured as a rifle?

 

[MoosemanOK 684]

Wouldn't a serial number tell you if it was manufactured as a rifle?

Only if you had the master list from Savage.

 

[Mister Dave]

 

[MoosemanOK 684]

So your serial number is in the block of records...that is a start !

 

[carlhawins]

Ugh, it's so fugly who cares what this monstrosity is?
Give it an oil bath to get rid of the rust inside and out and make it a wall hanger.
I don't think I'd even shoot it, unless a friend I didn't like did it first..

 

[MoosemanOK 684]

There are No Ugly Guns... Just Ugly People !

 

[okieguy55]

Ugh, it's so fugly who cares what this monstrosity is?
Give it an oil bath to get rid of the rust inside and out and make it a wall hanger.
I don't think I'd even shoot it, unless a friend I didn't like did it first..

Carlhawins, thanks for your 2 cents, but I believe I'll consider the advise from the constructive help on this forum, of which thankfully there is a lot.

 

[Cyrano]

Although this may be stating the obvious to this crowd, the ATF rule of rifles-to-pistols is unless it was done before the National Firearms Act, and preferably before 1898, you need to have a tax stamp for it.

Remember the old series Wanted Dead or Alive? That show premiered in 1958. The producers chose to give Josh Randall a very different firearm to distinguish him from all the other Western heroes. They had a gunsmith cut down three Winchester Model 1892s into a lever-action "pistol" chambered in .44-40. The ATF was not amused. The producers were fined $1,100 dollars (equivalent to $11,300 today) for manufacturing short-barreled rifles, and had to get tax stamps for the cut-down Mare's Laig rifles.

The modern production Mare's Leg pistols like the Rossi Ranch Hand and the Chiappa Puma do not have this problem because they are manufactured from the start as pistols. They are not cut-down rifles. Even the barrels and the magazine tube are not cut down, but made in pistol lengths. You may have problems if you live in a state like New York that has specifically outlawed them. As a rule, most anti-gun states (hereafter Peoples Democratic Republic states) regard the Mare's Leg pistols as short-barreled rifles, despite the ATF ruling that if they are manufactured as pistols, they are pistols, not short-barreled rifles. As far as I know, the state vs federal definition of SBR vs pistol has never been challenged in court. Might be interesting if it were.