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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don't want to sound as if I am beating a dead horse, but the .380 (in its standard FMJ loading for the US market has lower velocities than the 71-73 grain .32 ACP (European spec).

This puts the 9mm Kurz at a distinct disadvantage when fired from the barrels of most American pistols. The shorter the barrel length, the greater the disparity.

I have always wondered how well the .32 NAA (essentially a .32/.380) would fare from a 3.7"- 4" pistol barrel.

Penetration is of prime importance when it comes to the smaller caliber/lower power rounds.
 

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In my experience Euro 7.65 Browning ammo with 73-77 grain bullets fired from a barrel longer than 8cm have greater penetration than typical 9mm Corto/Kurtz/.380 ACP fired from the same barrel length. Euro-CIP 9x17 Corto 95 FMJ is loaded to higher velocity than US ammo and chronographs 985 fps from my Beretta M1934band 1030 fps from the SIG P230. S-B, Geco, and Norma 7.65mm heavy ball chronographed about the same in equal barrel length.

It is a simple factor of energy density in ft.-lbs./sq.in. the smaller caliber penetration is better.

Performance is impaired in short barrels similar to Keltec, Beretta Tomcat and Ruger LCP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
In my experience, Euro 7.65 Browning ammo with 73-77 grain bullets fired from a barrel longer than 8cm has greater penetration than typical 9mm Corto/Kurtz/.380 ACP fired from the same barrel length. Euro-CIP 9x17 Corto 95 FMJ is loaded to higher velocity than US ammo and chronographs 985 fps from my Beretta M1934band 1030 fps from the SIG P230. S-B, Geco, and Norma 7.65mm heavy ball chronographed about the same in equal barrel length.

It is a simple factor of energy density in ft.-lbs./sq.in. the smaller caliber penetration is better.

Performance is impaired in short barrels similar to Keltec, Beretta Tomcat, and Ruger LCP.
This is precisely why my preference lies with the 7.65x17 (7.65 Browning). The lower recoil and deeper penetration make it easier to shoot while penetrating to the vital organs more efficiently.

Dumping a magazine full of hot .32 ACP FMJ in a man's face will generally break off an attack. Hospitalization is virtually certain, death is rather likely.

I'm neither stupid nor suicidal.
 

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I have always been curious as to why the European police agencies before and after World War II almost all used .32 ACP/7.65 Browning as their standard round, while the Americans used .38 Special. Were the European police, as some writers have suggested, using their pistols as badges of office more than law enforcement equipment? Was there an assumption that the .32 ACP was more likely to let the police "Bring 'em back alive?" Was there some assumption that the .32 bullet did more damage by penetrating and tumbling to chop up the perp's internals than a larger, heavier bullet like the 158 grain roundnose .38 Special blasting its way through?

European police used that round for decades. There had to be a reason other than bureaucratic inertia. Does anyone know what it was?
 

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I realize that a smaller diameter bullet will penetrate deeper than a larger diameter the same weight & going the same speed but the .32's standard bullet weight of 71 grs. v.s. the standard weight of 95 grs. for the .380 & 9x18 Mak. makes a difference and will give more energy on target.
I can't find my chrono data for the .380 but it was slightly less than my Makarov data.
my .32 data for PPU 71 gr. JHP averages 887 fps. my 71 gr. reloads av. 964 fps. w/ 146 ft. lbs. energy. this is out of the Beretta's longer (than most .32 pistols)
my data for the 9x18 Mak out of the CZ 82 w/ same length bbl. as the Beretta is 1077 fps. av. w/ 244 ft. lbs. of energy. that and the possibility of "rim lock" make me carry the CZ instead of the Beretta.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I realize that a smaller diameter bullet will penetrate deeper than a larger diameter the same weight & going the same speed but the .32's standard bullet weight of 71 grs. v.s. the standard weight of 95 grs. for the .380 & 9x18 Mak. makes a difference and will give more energy on target.
I can't find my chrono data for the .380 but it was slightly less than my Makarov data.
my .32 data for PPU 71 gr. JHP averages 887 fps. my 71 gr. reloads av. 964 fps. w/ 146 ft. lbs. energy. this is out of the Beretta's longer (than most .32 pistols)
my data for the 9x18 Mak out of the CZ 82 w/ same length bbl. as the Beretta is 1077 fps. av. w/ 244 ft. lbs. of energy. that and the possibility of "rim lock" make me carry the CZ instead of the Beretta.
This is where "reaching the vital organs" is of prime importance. Rim lock generally doesn't take place unless you go outside the parameters of JMB's original design.
Energy isn't the "be-all, end-all" when it comes to performance reaching the vital organs repeatedly (and accurately) is usually a better bet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Rimlock occurs when .32 ACP rounds are shorter than 0.95" overall because the shorter rounds then have room to shuffle in the magazine stack due to recoil. FMJRN hardball OAL is 0.955-0.985 and rimlock cannot occur in a properly dimensioned magazine.
Precisely! Stick with the original design and hot, hardball ammunition. The .32 ACP will get the job done.
 

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I shot a huge armadillo center mass with a Seecamp 32 acp, with Silver tips. He ran off, took a second round. I shot a 100 pound deer in the head with Hydroshocks from. a Walther PPKs 380. .The deer went right down.

So for deer, I prefer the 380 over the 32. Seriously. I have used the Ppks 380 to kill lots of snakes and skunks and a racoon. It works great. Only used the 32 once. Not much velocity out of the short Seecamp barrel. I carried the Walther when I traveled for work, and I had cattle between home and work that I checked 2-3 days per week for years, so it got used often.

As to ammo, I also have a Ruger LCP custom. It will shoot the Hydroshocks into a 2.5 inch circle at 50 feet, extremely accurate and better than the Walther., a Rem 380, a Taurus 738 and a Glock 42. Academically, for calibers 25, 32, and 380 I think ball ammo is pretty darn good, but the Hydroshocks did so good on the deer, several skunks and a bunch if snakes it is my choice in all 380s.. The little 32*NAA I have never fired, but the velocity is so good I would not be surprised if it did better than the 380.
I carried the Seecamp in my pocket as a backup for years, nothing wrong with it, just that the LCP is a tack driver and the Seecamp is like a Shotgun, at least with me shooting it.

And I sure agree with post three, a round to the head from 32 ball is likely to cause death. Two or three of them remove the chance of recovery. The first homicide .I ever worked was one round from a 22 lr revolver from a 2 inch barrel, shot to the side of the head.

On the other hand I was on the front end of a 22Rifle aimed at the head of a fellow close to me, before anyone could move he shot the victim in the head the bullet richochetted out of the eye socket and came between my nose and a whiskey shot glass in my hand, spraying blood all over my face, fortunately it was not mine. The waitress was leaning over the bar talking to me, her dress was spatterred in blood from the waist up.

I dove, fell, crashed or somehow went over backwards and crawled away drawing the Colt 25 acp from my cowboy boot. Scooting out of the place like a lizard, I went to my car and recovered my duty gun, a SW model 19. Meanwhile, the shooter was over powered and his gun taken away and he was whisked out of the place by his buddies before cops arrived. Did I mentioned it was a Biker Bar? Still remember the name, the "Dew Drop Inn".The victim did not even require stitches, they just pulled the skin around his eye together and taped it and it healed. Shot in the head with a 22 rifle at 4-5 feet away and it just bounced off his skull. No the victim did not file charges it was a biker car, they do not do that..

Moral,of that story, that was when I replaced my boot carry gun from a 25 acp to a SW model 36 .I was a cop but not there, I was travelling and just stopped in to have a cold one. Wrong place wrong time. Lessons learned. Do not carry a 25 in your boot. Second lesson, when there are 25-30 bikes parked outside a bar and you want a cold one, go to 7/11 or another bar.
My 2 cents.
 

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personally, if we're talking about energy or terminal performance, there is little reason to go with anything less than 9mm.

or, check out the new 30 super carry or the new .327 fed mag.

i recently ditched .380, 9mm is superior in virtually every way, even the 9mm guns are just as small as .380 guns these days.
 

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Is there a better term than "rimlock"? Semi-rimlock? I don't know, it just doesn't feel right to read about rimlock on an auto round.

I know 32 acp was technically designed in the Victorian era at the same time as other notorious rim-lockers, but it just feels too....modern?
 

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personally, if we're talking about energy or terminal performance, there is little reason to go with anything less than 9mm.

or, check out the new 30 super carry or the new .327 fed mag.

i recently ditched .380, 9mm is superior in virtually every way, even the 9mm guns are just as small as .380 guns these days.
I dont know? everyone says that...find me a 9mm smaller than my 380 ..........there are not many.
Thinking the Kahr PM9 might be close but even that is about Glock 42 size, however the Glock 42 is huge for a 380, so yeah I will keep carrying 380 until the time comes that I can get a 9mm that weighs 12 oz and is less than .95 inches thin
 

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I have always been curious as to why the European police agencies before and after World War II almost all...used that round for decades. There had to be a reason other than bureaucratic inertia. Does anyone know what it was?
The .380 or 9mm Corto was used by the Italian Army, Navy, Airforce, Forestry/Border Guards and Carabinieri. The .32 ACP or 7.65mm was used by municipal police, prison system, financial / customs and tax inspectors, bank guards and private security. Civilian ownership pre-WW2 was limited to the .32s. The .380 indicated Federal government use.
 

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Gentlemen: How does this pertain to the thread topic?

well its about .380.. i honestly had a hard time figuring out what the OP was asking..

sure its largely about .32 vs .380.

but also about performance and penetration from small pistols, which is why i commented that neither the, 380 or .32 are ideal currently.
 

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I dont know? everyone says that...find me a 9mm smaller than my 380 ..........there are not many.
Thinking the Kahr PM9 might be close but even that is about Glock 42 size, however the Glock 42 is huge for a 380, so yeah I will keep carrying 380 until the time comes that I can get a 9mm that weighs 12 oz and is less than .95 inches thin

whats your .380? 12oz isnt much at all, looks like maybe a keltec p3at? there isnt many at that weight even with .380
 
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