4-3-1 Round - What's the Closest We have?

Discussion in 'General Handgun' started by BattleRifleG3, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    Good points on the limits of the 1911. I'll leave that one alone.

    I am surprised that folks consider a 44 Rem Mag easier to manage than a 10mm 1911. I haven't shot them side by side, but I would think the opposite myself.

    Apart from the platform, let's just say we got a 300gr hard cast 40cal bullet to 1000fps in a comfortable semi auto. Not a free lunch, just the size of a Mark 23 and a robust design with 10-14rd capacity. Call it a unicorn if you want, let's just pretend I found one. Would that seem like a solid choice ballistically?
  2. BRG3, the .44RemMag in a 7 1/2" Redhawk is easy to shoot, it is portable...I load a 300grHP hard cast lead load and it is the real deal...I carry it when hiking, concealed...ballistically 1k'/sec is easy..faster is easy, too. As stated earlier, there are no magazines, no cartridges and no verified ballistics...I will stay with the .44 but will carry a G20 as well...
    austinjoe13, Ten Man and TXplt like this.

  3. Cyrano

    Cyrano Resident Curmudgeon Forum Contributor

    New York
    How does the .45 Colt fit into this discussion? The thought occurs to me that with a hollowpoint slug it would at least make Mr. Bear pay attention.
    K75RT likes this.
  4. TXplt

    TXplt Gun Toting Boeing Driver Forum Contributor

    The hot loaded buffalo bore +Ps 45LC 325 gr FPHC is doing 1600-ish out of a Marlin (and still kicks pretty good). Low end trapdoor 45-70 performance. I don't have any revolvers strong enough to shoot it in but I'd think you'd be getting somewheres in the 1300-1400 range depending on barrel length.

    Not something I'd enjoy shooting from a revolver and I think it would be painful (given that the RIFLE seems to kick enough).

    A much more pleasant load is 8.2 grains universal under a 255 grain Keith. This works in everything I've got.
    chesterwin and K75RT like this.
  5. ^^^^And going back to Barry Halls assertion...if the .44 isn't stout enough go with the .454Casull. I have shot it in a Ruger and it was not bad...I like the more manageable .44 loaded with a 300gr HP....a new cartridge in .40/10 would have a rough road to prove iteself...there are too many "economical" alternatives that are time proven.. ammo is costly at the present time if you do not have a stock of it...I have .44Mag 300gr LSWCHP, I have .45Colt 255gr LSWC...I am also a fan of the Underwood line of 10mm ammo..and have a stock of it
    Ten Man and TXplt like this.
  6. Cyrano

    Cyrano Resident Curmudgeon Forum Contributor

    New York
    With regard for the felt recoil of the .45 Colt, I observe that if Mr. Bear is coming at you, you probably won't even notice it through the adrenaline rush.

    I took a look on Gunbroker.com and saw a number of pistols chambered in .45 Colt, including a couple of Taurus Judges, a Colt Anaconda (apparently a rare pistol), and some Model 1917 Substitute Standards. Would any of these, especially the Model 1917s, do for the close-in anti-bear mission?
    K75RT likes this.
  7. Kellen

    Kellen G&G Evangelist

    Hadn't heard of the 4-3-1 rule before, so want to start by saying thanks to BattleRifle for sharing that.
    Since I hunt in the northwest, no matter where I go I'm in bear country, both black and, to the north, good ol' griz. My go-to sidearm used to be a SRH 44M, and no doubt about the build and reliability of that revolver. Problem is, I had a couple bad experiences last two seasons, coming upon fresh kills. I usually hunt alone, and when your flashlight beam strikes a bloody cow elk carcass at 4:30A in the pitch black, surrounded by a thickly wooded wilderness, your instincts get very primal in a hurry. The whole concept of taking multiple defensive shots when your vision is that limited kinda goes out the window. Convinced me to step up into a bigger bore where that first shot has a better chance of making a difference, so I now use a .475 Linebaugh. The Linebaugh totally out-performs the 44M, delivers faster, larger, and more energy, and feel my chances are improved. Really wonderful cartridge. But let's face it, luck has to be on your side when faced with a charging bear no matter what tool you have.
  8. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist

    As for your first point, it depends on the .44 MAG revolver. I shoot Glock 10MM pistols, and the S&W and Ruger 44 MAG revolvers. I also shoot Glock and 1911 45 AUTO pistols, so I can compare the two brands side by side for their ergonomics. BOTTOM LINE, the 10MM, with full power loads is still easier to control than the 44 MAG revolver with full power loads. The foot pounds of energy at the muzzle is the biggest tell in this comparison.

    If I were still in the Pacific Northwest (i.e. Bear Country), I would still be carrying the 44 MAGNUM revolver, instead of the Glock 10MM when in the woods, during hunting season. The rest of the year, the 10MM would be fine. When hunting season ensues, the bruins are "pushed" by the hunters, and get agitated. The rest of the year, they are pretty mellow. The Danish Park Rangers use Glock 10MM pistols for defense against Polar Bears, so they think it is effective.

    Regarding your second point, and question, assuming you found the Unicorn, I can't really say that a 10-14 round capacity is a distinct advantage over a heavy hitting bullet with a larger diameter. I think that I would still rather have the 44 MAG 300 grain bullet in a 6 shot revolver with 1200 fps velocity, than the 40 Cal. 300 grain bullet in a semi-auto, at 1,000 fps velocity.
    BattleRifleG3 likes this.
  9. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    The issue with 45 Colt is that the smaller cylinder thickness and older steel of the Colt Peacemaker and and all its clones, Taurus Judge, SW Governor and even the Ruger Flat top and small frame Vaquero and all the Smith and Wessons, are specifically not designed for the new hot 45 Colt Plus P loads. There is no official Plus P loading just labeled by the industry for safety reasons. For more info go to the Buffalo Bore site. He specifically says the Taurus Judge, Governor and small frame Rugers are not suitable for his Plus P 45 Colt ammo. I trust his judgment.

    I have the small Rugers, the standard Colt clones that shoot the traditional 45 Colt, very mild. I consider it close to 45 acp or 45 acp Plus P is about as hot as is safe. I also shoot the full size Ruger Bisley. It will produce more than twice the energy, my gun will get close to 1,200 foot pounds, it is hard to get much above 400 with a traditional 45 Colt. Essentially it is equal to a 44 mag. But the older guns in 45 Colt really are just not safe for the 44 mag type loads.
    BarryHalls, blaster and BattleRifleG3 like this.
  10. Cyrano

    Cyrano Resident Curmudgeon Forum Contributor

    New York
    Thanks for the clarification, Ranger4.
    Ranger4 likes this.
  11. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    Did some more reading and I find that people are loading 41 mag with 295gr bullets and 1100fps. Sound like a better candidate from a ballistic standpoint?

    I'm thinking my unicorn would basically need to be a kind of 41 auto mag. My ideal gun would be similar in concept to the classic auto mag, but different in execution.
    Ten Man and austinjoe13 like this.
  12. chesterwin

    chesterwin G&G Evangelist

    Many firearms fit the "criteria". This quest for a new "best" reminded me of this old article. https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2011/11/beware-man-one-gun/
    K75RT, BarryHalls and Ten Man like this.
  13. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist

    From the article:
    "Are the very best shooters and athletes hyper-attuned to their equipment because they spend so much time practicing with it, or are they born with a Princess and the Pea-like sensitivity to tiny differences that helps them become the best?"

    I say it's a combination of both.
    TXplt, BarryHalls and chesterwin like this.
  14. chesterwin

    chesterwin G&G Evangelist

    I'd tend to agree.
    TXplt and Ten Man like this.
  15. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    I think you may not want to consider the automag type platform or any semi auto for what you want to do. I have dozens of bullet molds and like to play with differing designs and functions. On thing I know for sure is your 300 grain bullet in 40 cal will not work in any semi auto design unless you have huge hands with very long fingers. Think about the Coonan Arms in 357 mag, it never fit the hand of the average guy like a 1911 and never sold well. Example, a 1911 in 45 acp or 38 super has a maximum length of under 1.3 inches, a 357 is about 1.6. That is 3/10ths of an inch. The existing 41 mag is also, 1.6 inches max and that includes the 210 grain bullets. SO for your concept to work, the actual bullet length will need to be increased by about 150% to get to the 300 grains. Maybe differing powder could allow them to be seated deeper? Probably not because the 357, 41 and 44 mags already have a balance of bullet weight to case capacity.

    So, you need a big case to begin with, like 41 mag powder capacity and a bullet 1.5 times longer than a 41 mag. In a semi auto like the Coonan or Auto Mags, then you are going to have 3/10th longer than a traditional 1911 and then a bullet that is about another 3/10ths of an inch. So, the finger reach is suddenly about 6/10ths of an inch longer than the average hand. Not likely anybody is going to make anything like that.

    You might look at one of the three books from Max Prazac who has become the newest big bore guru writing for Gun Digest and others over the last 10 years. I have 2 of his books and recommend them highly for any handgun hunter, especially of very large and dangerous animals. His books have dozens of actual stories and pictures or the animals harvested. He also show a nasty gash in his forehead from a 454 Casul. Bear in mind his role is to deal with guns fully loaded to their max potential to kill big animals.

    He goes into great detail with the bigger boomers and has dozens of custom guns costing thousands many being special order, but then he comes back with, a stainless Ruger Bisley, 5.5 inch barrel loaded with the Buffalo Bore, HSM, or other bear killer bullets will do anything a person needs to do with a handgun He of course was helped in his work by the greats like Linbaugh, Dick Casul, Jack Huntington, the guy who owns Cold Steel and kills stuff with spears, and 454 handguns and many others.

    Just saying, these guys have specialized is the concept you mention and have decades of experience, actually shooting water buffalo, lions, and dozens of large animals and discussed at length in his books.

    I have never heard of the 431 rule in any legitimate handgun hunting group, who made that up?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  16. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist

    It looks like it would be lighter than the Desert Eagle, and it was also made in 41 Magnum, which is very close to what BattleRifleG3 is looking for.

    Since it is no longer manufactured, I bet it will be rare and expensive! LOL!
    BarryHalls, BattleRifleG3 and K75RT like this.
  17. rangerjd

    rangerjd G&G Evangelist

    I have a Model 69, it is a great, lightweight .44 magnum revolver, when you're hiking the mountains up here in the Pacific Northwest, however, with heavy, hardcast, fast moving bear loads it is a handful to shoot. It actually hurts to shoot full power loads. It has a 4" barrel and my 2" Ruger Alaskan Super Redhawk handles the heavy loads a lot better, because it's so much heavier.

    My son, who lives in Alaska, says the 10mm has really taken off lately up there and that more and more people are starting to carry it. I love my G20SF and it shoots the Buffalo Bore hardcast 220 grain bullets extremely well and the recoil is very easy to manage.
  18. rangerjd

    rangerjd G&G Evangelist

    I have shot both and the 10mm is way easier to shoot than either one of my .44 mags. I have a S&W Combat Model 69 and a Ruger Alaskan Super Redhawk with a 2" barrel, even the longer barrel .44s I've shot seem to have significant more recoil than any 10mm I've shot, especially my G20SF which shoots even the most powerful loads without too much recoil.
    austinjoe13 likes this.
  19. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    I am wondering how many actually documented shootings of brown bears there are with the Glock 10mm. The 220 grain Buffalo Bore only get 1,140 fps per their website. That is about 633 foot pounds. Buffalo bore rates my 3 inch J frame 357 mag at 697 foot pounds with the smaller 180 grain bullet. Of course the slightly lower powered gun with the 220 grain bullet would be my choice always. I like big bullets.

    Your 4 inch 44 mag they rate at nearly 1,200 foot pounds. They do not show a 4 inch barrel test , just the 5.5 inch.

    I guess it all goes with how many times you hit the bear before he hits you just one time. All your shots need to count, he only needs one to count, only one. I know there have been bears stopped with the 9mm and other small rounds with precise head shots, I am just wondering if there are enough bear stops with the 10mm to show a pattern?
    rangerjd likes this.