4-3-1 Round - What's the Closest We have?

Discussion in 'General Handgun' started by BattleRifleG3, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. rangerjd

    rangerjd G&G Evangelist

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  2. rangerjd

    rangerjd G&G Evangelist

    One of the things I do to my G20SF, is that a put a 6" line wolf barrel in it when I take it to the woods, which help a little bit with velocity. When used as a home defense weapon I keep the original barrel in in and load it with Sig Sauer V-Crown 180 grain HPs
     
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  3. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    That extra barrel length does help, going from 4.6 to 6. Of the 83 bear shootings documented by the Ammoland Study, only two were grizzles with 10mms, there was one with a 400 pound black bear that took 8 rounds to stop, but it had the wrong ammo, critical defense hollow points. Looks like anything can work with a shot to the eye, but why take a gun with 650 foot pounds and leave one with 1,000 at home, just saying. If you read this article it appears that the bigger bores, ie the 44 mag had 24 cases I think of actually stopping the bear, there were additional ones where they were wounded with the 44 mag but ran away.

    https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/up...r-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz6bwpCXUpS
     
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  4. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    I was today years old when I finally realized that the Wildey and Automag were two different items. They sure look similar! And allegedly both are back in production, on a limited basis.

    I think some of our thoughts are on the same page, but we're missing each other. Here's where I am at the moment:
    It seems that 41 mag at its peak is the beginning of acceptable - which seems to match the 4-3-1 rule pretty well. (I have found it published in a few places as a rule of thumb - like any gun rule of thumb it's not like it came down on stone tablets.)
    41 auto mags are longer than standard pistol rounds, but also usually straight wall. I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that a round similar in concept to the 40 Super could match the performance of a 41 mag, with a shoulder instead of straight wall, and a fatter case in the range of a 45 ACP. I would like to push the question of if a 40 Super could actually do this within its SAAMI pressure specs but on a purpose built platform. So you would need a Unicorn to fire the 4-3-1 loads, but this Unicorn could also eat regular 40 Super.
     
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  5. BarryHalls

    BarryHalls G&G Evangelist

    I suspect you are right on all counts.
     
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  6. BarryHalls

    BarryHalls G&G Evangelist

  7. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    Uh well, no there are no polar bears in Sweden and I am pretty sure the Swedes do not patrol in Greenland.

    The link you posted is about a 14 man Danish unit that does patrol in Greenland which is a Danish territory. The 14 guys do appear to carry Glocks but there is not any reported case of them ever using a Glock handgun for polar bear defense. So, I am not sure it is accurate to say they are happy with them for polar bear defense if they have never used them even one time.

    The three cases reported in the Ammo land article above, showing the results of the 10mm on bears, all three survived. One was a 400 pound black bear, one a 400 pound grizzly sow and the last was a 800-850 pound grizzly. A male polar bear weighs between 800 and 1,500 pounds. Not really in the same class.

    Just messing with you.
     
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  8. BarryHalls

    BarryHalls G&G Evangelist

    I was quoting another post, not my link. However it seems you are correct. The only polar bears in Scandinavia are on the island of Svalbard. My memory must have skipped a groove. I must have been remembering the Greenland service incorrectly from an article I read years ago.

    If you care to search this article, they reference "many successful stops" on polar bears by the Danish with their Glocks. The link they reference is to a National Geographic article, which has been moved behind a paywall and isn't fully accessible without a Nat Geo subscription.

    https://alaskagunsite.wordpress.com/2016/12/31/10mm-auto-and-bears/

    Wish I could find more. Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  9. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    I have seen the references to those 14 special forces guys in Greenland who carry the Glock 20. Problem is everyone comments that they traded their 9mm Sigs because they did not work well against muskox and bears, but there is never one single story about any shooting by them with either the 9mm or 10mm.

    Greenland has set a minimum polar bear defense caliber, it is 30-06 and no handguns are allowed. Every hike into the polar bear regions require a permit, and if a gun is carried it must be a bolt action or lever gun, no semi autos allowed in the country. So, no private citizens in that country or any visitor appear to be allowed to carry a 10mm for bear defense, only those 14 guys on the sled patrol. They only deploy in pairs and usually with 15 sled dogs. Two guys shooting at a bear with 15 dogs providing noise and cover seems fine to me, but those 14 handguns are backup, if they cannot get to their 30-06.

    Color me skeptical. I remember when the FBI went to the 10mm and said it was the greatest thing ever, we were jealous for a while because we only had 45 acps. LOL Just saying because 14 guys in a country change from 9mm to 10 mm is not a case study, it is just a policy decision. A good one for sure, but it does not tell me anything about what a 10mm does on impact with a 1,500 pound bear.

    Interesting discussion. Any further data would be appreciated.

    https://studylib.net/doc/8869155/greenland-bear-and-firearm-safety
     
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  10. BigEd63

    BigEd63 G&G Evangelist

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    Got s question is the .400 Corbon dead in the water?
    And if not what are the ballistics?
     
  11. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    Ballistics of 400 Cor Bon are similar to a 10mm. The point of the round is to match the 10mm in a gun otherwise designed for 45 ACP. The 40 Super, which I've been hashing out on this thread, is similar in concept, but is designed for higher performance.

    I researched ammo availability a little bit, and it looks like the 400 Cor Bon is receding. Probably because 10mm is making a comeback. I did notice a little more availability for 40 Super.
     
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  12. BarryHalls

    BarryHalls G&G Evangelist

    Guys, guys, guys! How have we overlooked the 440 cor bon?

    Seems like a short stop to the 44 mag and I would bet the case works like a DREAM in the Deagle. All it needs is a barrel swap.

    I find it very attractive.

    Wiki says 305gr at 1600fps.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.440_Cor-Bon

    Now to get closer to the minimum 4-3-1 can we neck a 50AE down to 40?

    I still question the rule, but 300gr of hard cast at 1600 FPS out of an auto gets my eyebrows up.
     
  13. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    Uh well, I just came home from a black powder deer hunting Monday night. I hunt in the Oklahoma panhandle and have seen one cougar that I let walk right up to me a few years ago. The place we hunt supposedly has a cougar passing through along the river, so I know they are there. Saturday, it was 19 degrees and blowing sleet. Being a wimp, I took my chair blind for the afternoon hunt. About 30 minutes before dark, 2 coyotes spied my hut and proceeded to run right toward me at a good pace. I did not want to shoot because we have monster bucks on camera. So, I decided to hold fire until they got about 15 feet.

    So, I pulled out my custom 1911, 400 Corbon and centered the front sight on his chest, pushing the barrel a couple inches out the window. Wow, he saw the gun and they split light lightning ran right past my hut, one on each side. Maybe 20 feet each. Bet they do not approach my little hut again.

    I reload with new brass from from Starline, small pistol primers with a thicker base, basically a 45 acp plus P. I carry the Corbon 165 grain factory ammo, and think Underwood is now the only source. Mine shoots the 165s over 1,350 fps for over 650 foot pounds. My reloads are the 135 and 155 grain flat points, both at 1,400 fps. Recoil/blast is pretty harsh and I will not go higher, maybe tone it back a little.

    I have not tried but I do not believe I can match the 10mm when you get to 180 grain or heavier. In mine I simply bought one of the 400 Corbon drop in barrels, changed the recoil spring to 22# and added a shock buff. I put them in a RIA basic 1911, then I changed every external part to stainless, main spring housing, beaver tail, combat hammer, safety, slide release, trigger, recoil spring plug and bushing. Makes for a nice look. I have many handguns, but really like the 1911 in 400 Corbon.

    Also, I bought a Lyman sizing die. It converts a 45 acp case to 400 Corbon with one simple stroke, works 100% of the time and never had an issue with the reformed cases. I see no reason to load them down much, so my plinking load is still above a similar size 357 Mag handgun, 135 and 155 grain bullet at 1,400 fps. If I want a lighter load, I have a near identical gun in 38 super. And if I want a really light load I can go all the way down to 9mm or 22lr, which I also have in 1911 form.

    So, the 400 Corbon is still alive at my house, but when I take it to the range, nobody seems to know what it is. I think Midway and Sarco still sell the cheap conversion barrels for something like $70. EX way to get into a 1911 thumper. Just add a heavy spring and shock buff to any 1911.

    FWIW
     
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  14. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    See my comment below. Mine is a 1911, 5 inch barrel. The Corbon factory 165 grain is the only ones I have tested and I get over 1,350 fps. I reload the 135 and 155 bullets to 1,400 fps. I have loaded others just have not tested them for speed. Love the round. At 650 foot pounds it has heavy recoil and blast, exactly why I put it together. I think Underwood and Heritage ammo are the only ones selling ammo now. Underwood says theirs gets 675 foot pounds. I need to add a few boxes.
     
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  15. runfiverun

    runfiverun G&G Evangelist

    since we are stuck on the 40.
    someone needs to look at the old herters 401.
    and the Winchester version which came much sooner.
    the 401 wsl.
    it only come in a little semi auto carbine and was the big brother to the 351wsl.

    I'm not gonna look.[mostly cause I know what they are]
    plus I have a 4" 6 shot revolver that meets all the criteria here.
    it could be a 2" barrel [since I have one] but it probably won't make 1-K fps with a barrel that short.
    but then again I have the option of using 350gr, bullets so 800 fps is probably enough speed if I get 18"s of penetration.
     
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  16. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    Yes that looks really good. Almost like a light loaded 454 which will throw a 360 grain bullet at that same speed. The Casull in a Ruger only weighs 48-50 ounces, the Desert Eagle weighs over 70 ounces with the short barrel, 6 inches. And of course the 454 can be had in the pocket pistol version, 2 inch barrel that only weighs 41 ounces in the Ruger Alaskan.

    The Rossi and Puma 454 Carbines weigh about 5.8 pounds, where the Desert Eagles all weigh about 4.5 pounds or more. My buddy has both the 44 mag and 50 AE Desert Eagles. He hunts with a scoped 44 Mag Ruger because they are just too big and awkward for any carry beyond the first hill. So, as a practical matter, they the only real purpose for them is for range fun, and the 50 is fun. So heavy not much recoil but they do make a big clunk when they hit steel. I suppose if you had a job where you drove around and maybe stopped to check things, like oil field pumps and valves, they might work to carry in the jeep or ATV. That being said, the little 16 inch carbines just have so much more to offer.

    For example, the 440 Corbon moves a 300 grain bullet at 1,600 fps, a 454 pistol a little bigger bullet at 365 grains. The 440 gets 1,700 foot pounds of energy. Those carbines by Rossi, Big Horn and Puma, with the 16 inch barrel then launch those 300 grain bullets at 1,900-2,000 fps, which is 2,400 foot pounds or more. Mine will equal my Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 with 300 grain bullets.

    Just saying, the Desert Eagles are fun range guns, but not so practical. I have hunted big game in 5 states sometimes taking 6-7 trips per year and never met a hunter, hiker or anyone else carrying one, including horseback trips 15 or so miles from the trailhead.

    Other than maybe hog hunting from a blind over bait, has anyone hear actually used a Desert Eagle to hunt big game? Please chime in guys.
     
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  17. BarryHalls

    BarryHalls G&G Evangelist

    All valid points.

    I would love to see the FK BRNO bring eek out a little following and tease out some more magnum autos into the market, but I keep circling back to thw Ruger Super Redhawk. Manageble for open carry and a 6" 454 throws enough hate to actually reliably stop a charging bear.

    I think given the energy, weight of the projectiles, if we could convince Magnum Research to make a aluminum alloy frame DE in 440 corbon, that would really be something, but wow, what a tiny niche.

    My gripe on the DE has always been the monster grip. I can get more energy out of a revolver and manage to shoot it much better, because I can hold it so much more easily.
     
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  18. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    I believe the DE was once chambered for 440 Cor Bon. They actually came out with a competing cartridge, the 429 DE.

    I do think there's potential for a pistol that keeps most of the concept of the DE but has a less monstrous grip. I can hold one, but at that size the contours need to be a more perfect match for my hand.

    Something with a locking mechanism like the DE or Wildey, but a style of construction more like the HK Mark 23 is where my mind is headed.
     
  19. chesterwin

    chesterwin G&G Evangelist

    Vote wisely, or this may not all matter.
     
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  20. MosinRuger

    MosinRuger G&G Evangelist

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    i've never had to defend myself from a bear or any dangerous game really. but, I feel like this 4-3-1 rule is a bit like someone saying that you need a .40 call or better or .45 or whatever for CC or your under gunned. It depends on the shooter.

    carry as much gun as you can effectively shoot.