.45 Vs 9mm

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Logansdad, May 5, 2002.

  1. Logansdad

    Logansdad Guest

    All too often I hear people comparing the .45ACP to the 9mm. Round for round the .45 is better but my Glock 17 holds 17 rounds in the magazine. I can put 2 rounds into a target if need be. 2 rounds of 124 grain hollowpoints at 1150 fps beat one round of 230 grain hollowpoint at 850 fps any day of any week. 8 rounds in a sidearm really doesn't compare to 18....Now they are both good rounds but I'll keep on carrying my .357. :fuss:
    Oh yeah maybe there is a reason that the military has kept on adopting smaller and higher velocity rounds other than the fact that the individual infantry soldier can carry more ammunition.
    :assult: :nod:
     
  2. Doglips

    Doglips Guest

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    Should have posted this on the general gun form..more trafic...But Ill bite:)
    I read way too much Jeff Cooper and Elmer Keith growing up and as such often chant the mantra anything less than a 45 is a poodle pooper mouse gun in my sleep. I think the 45 reputation is long held and well earned. However, latley I have come to ?? if a 9mm is all that bad....I mean with modernern +p ammo and bullett design...the stopeing power has greatly improved since the days of ball ammo.
    Ill also conseed that 17 shots has an advadage over 7 or 8.
    I guess it comes down too what you can handle best. My wife smokes with her 9 but can hit nothing with a 45..shes afraid of it. Me I can hit with the 1st shot with my 454 but follow up shots dont set speed records.

    Kinda intrested in how this comes out...
     

  3. colt45

    colt45 Guest

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    I'm still a 45 fan one 230 rnd will work. I agree that two 9mm rnds are better but you may not get two off. I was heart broken when ucle sam took my 45 and gave me a cap gun. My understanding of the small faster rnd is that the smaller rnd makes for better casualties. If a man is hit and rolling around in pain some one is going to attend to him some times two or three will be needed to get him out of there. bingo you just took two to four men off the battle field with one shot. If you hit him with some thing big and slow it will most likely finish him right off no good for reducing numbers of enemy the attackers just step over him and keep chargeing your position. Now I'm sure lighter had a lot to do with it so you could carry more rounds and need resuply less often but I think that the original idea was casualties the lighter weight was frosting.
    I may be wrong on this in part or as a whole, but this is what I was told in the corps and even if you know its a lie if the corps tells you thats whats up you don't ask questions.
    One last note in the military your weapon was made by the lowest bidder might or might not have anything to do with it.
     
  4. Armorer

    Armorer Guest

    Standing Invite. I can hit seven out of seven at 100 yards with a 1911a1.

    Ok you 9mm guys line up and let see if that sucker will even go that far :)
     
  5. Logansdad

    Logansdad Guest

    Armorer it'll do it all day long....I like 9mm, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum and even .38 Special. If it goes BANG I'm pretty much a fan
     
  6. Doglips

    Doglips Guest

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    100 yards with a 45...got to admit im impressed..a long time ago I had the Marlin Camp Carbine in 45acp adn it had the trajectory of a rock....maybe the longer barrel slowed it down (actualy read that some wear)... Never tryed a pistol beyond 25 or so yards....
     
  7. Jesse

    Jesse Tradehawker LLC / www.tradehawker.com / Jn 17:17 Forum Contributor

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    If I was going to take a 100 yd. shot with a .45 ACP, I'd use the 185 gr. +p (1150 fps). I've never had a 230gr. .45 ACP go that distance without dropping.


    Jesse
     
  8. JohnD

    JohnD Guest

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    They both have there strong points. A 9mm is = in ftlbs of energy compared to the 230grn @ 850fps But the .45 puts more of that energy into its target when you are talking ball ammo. Saing the 9mm is not effective is like saying the .30m1 carbine beats the .223, both have there strong points but with modern hollow point ammo the 9mm works. For military the 9mm is almost perfect just like the .223 light fast and accurate and more range than the .45. When you are dealing with multiple targets I would go with a 9mm when you need fast accurate shooting (military) but If I was carying for selfe defence I would go with the .45 for single close targets. Now that is why they invented the .40s&w you get a bit from both worlds speed of the 9 and the range and a bit more stoping power.
     
  9. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    Kinetic energy is one property... Momentum is another. The physics are real complex as far as what goes into what how, but basically the 45 has much more momentum, and a little more kinetic energy. Think of it this way, energy is how deep something goes, momentum is how much it throws the target.
    I'd go 45 all the way. If I needed range, I'd use a rifle.
     
  10. AR-tim

    AR-tim Guest

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    Ok, here is where I am coming from. I have a Glock 17 (9mm) and want a H&K USP 45 and a Springfield 1911. I love shooting my glock, that is a great gun. I also like shooting my buddies 1911. When I think about it, I really wounldn't want to gewt shot by either! Same with the old .223 vs. .308 dicussion. Why can't we call it a draw, they both have their good and bad.. Oh yeah, I'll throw in a quote from a Navy SEAL on a History channel show(from what I can remember, it went like this). "...A lot of us are carring 9mm now. Some people will gripe about not have the stopping power of a .45, but when I put 2 in your chest, and 1 in your head, you won't know the difference...." Can't argue with that;) but, this will still go on.....

    -Tim
     
  11. Armorer

    Armorer Guest

    Why was the 45cal used by the Armed forces? Because the 38cal auto didn't stop the drugged up natives who wrapped the bodies in sand filled bamboo stalks during the boar wars.

    During WWI, they were used to repel Germans who would fall into the trenches with their bayonets fixed, and still kill after they were shot. The 45s would blow them backwards.

    You hit a person ANYWHERE with a 45, they will not get up. I know some big guys that could take 2-3 9mm body hits and keep coming.
     
  12. Jesse

    Jesse Tradehawker LLC / www.tradehawker.com / Jn 17:17 Forum Contributor

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    You have to speed the 9mm up to junior .357 mag ballistics to get the "one shot" knockdown potential of the best .45ACP loads. I personally think the best loads you can shoot in a 9mm are: 115gr. +p Cor-Bon or 127gr.+p+ LE Ranger Talon. The best I think you can shoot in a 1911 or any .45ACP are: 230gr. +p Cor-Bon or 185gr. +p Cor-Bon/Remington (Goldsaber). If you go standard pressure, in 9mm: 115gr.Winchester Silvertip or 115gr.Federal Hi Shock (9bp). Standard pressure in .45ACP: 230gr. Federal Hydrashock/Remington Goldsaber or if you want optimal penetration, any quality 230gr. hardball round.
    The standard pressure .45 ACP rounds are way better than the standard pressure 9mm rounds in my opinion. The +p loads are closer in actual performance.
    It is also my personal opinion that the .45 ACP and the .357 mag, with the correct load(s) offer the best protection in a handgun.



    Jesse
     
  13. JohnD

    JohnD Guest

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    The 9mm works with hollow point ammo. There has been a number of police shootings arround my area most of the attackers were armed all the suspects hit were killed instantly with a 9mm and some were on drugs/alcohol well the one who tryed to drive the cop over was anyway. One guy shot a police dog and then turned the wepon on the cops who were 100ft away and he whas shot dead with a 9mm. One shot a cop dead when they got pulled over and took off and evnetualy it ended in a fire fight wich the killer died with a 9mm. None were injured and all died who got hit. So the 9mm works. With ball ammo the larger the diameter the better with fmj. But do not feel underguned with a 9mm. Shot placement is the key if you shoot the 9mm twice as accurately than the .45 than use the one which you shoot better with. But I agree that the .45 is more effective with fmj and hollow point but the 9mm works too. Realy the comparison should not be made. It would be like comparing the .458winchest mag. to the 340 weatherby mag.
     
  14. BenP

    BenP Guest

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    Tell that to the Miami FBI that were all issued 9mm semi auto with HP ammo. How many shots did they take at the bad guys? How was the fight ended? With a 12 ga and a 357 mag at point blank. What about the officers emptied their guns at the criminals, then died themselves after being shot while trying to reload.

    9mm is marginally effective. Shot placement and bullet expansion are critical for effective one shot stops. Yes, a nine can kill, so can a 22.

    The difference is more like getting hit hard with a 12 oz claw hammer in the right spot, vs. getting hit hard just about anywhere structurally with a 3 lb sledge hammer. The 45 (even in ball form) is just too much shock to absorb and overcome.

    Perhaps the 40 S&W is the best of both worlds. 180 gr. JHP at 9mm velocities.

    Now as for capacity, I still have my Glock 21 (45 acp) and two pre ban 13 round clips. If I can't get it all done with that, either I have no business with a gun, or I've at least done my share of damage.
     
  15. JohnD

    JohnD Guest

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    Yes the .40s&w was made for this reason. But how many police carry a .45? Realy I would like to know the numbers. But for people who say the 45 knocks them over is totaly wrong. I mean you yourself would get kicked around shooting the gun more than the one receving the bullet. But I would like to know the preformance of these guns on game such as coyotes or pigs or somthing. Anybody use the .45 to take them and also use the 9mm and have them die slower?
     
  16. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

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    Well, my post here disappeared, too. I was replying to Armorer. The .45 was adopted because of the dismal performance of .38 revolvers in the Phillipines versus the fanatical drugged up Moros. South Africa had nothing to do with it.
     
  17. lefty o

    lefty o G&G Evangelist

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    me me me,my two cents-i prefer the 45 over the 9,but i prefer the 40 over the 45,hows that. now as far as why did the military switch to a 9, yeah cheapest bidder probably has something to do with it, but the real reason is that the average recruit has never shot a handgun before boot, and the forty five's recoil simply intimidates them, easier to train with the 9. even though the most petite female recruit could handle a 45,with proper training. :gangster:
     
  18. Stewart

    Stewart Guest

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    Neither one of the reasons for the move to 9mm over .45cal is exactly correct. One of the reason for the switch was the same reason for moving to 5.56 and 7.62....NATO. The military needed to standardize its ammunition with those allies in NATO. This would help to faciliate sharing of ammunition and weapon systems if needed. The other reasons were accuracy, weight (of a basic load on a soldier), and increased round capacity. A recruit has never fired an AT4 or T.O.W. before entering service and these are far more intimidating.

    When I entered the service my standard sidearm was the M1911. Personally, I didn't have any problem qualifying with this weapon, and I liked it. We later switched to the 9mm Beretta I also liked this weapon as well. Shooting combat targets (silhouette) with the .45 most people did knock down the target and qualified, but it was always interesting to see where these rounds hit. When we qualified with the 9mm we used paper silhouettes with scoring rings so qualification was with a score not a knock down of the target.

    They really both are good rounds I prefer the accuracy and capacity that the 9mm offers, .40SW is a good mix.
     
  19. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

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    Actually Stewart, we were discussing why the .45 ACP was originally adopted, WAY before NATO.
     
  20. Stewart

    Stewart Guest

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    Klaus, I was responding to Lefty O's comment about why he thought the Military made the switch to 9mm from 45 cal.