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7.62Nato and .308 Winchester
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Every so often, we seem to have this myth crop up - that the two cartridges are The Same. No, they aren't. Read the FA article - there are dimensional differences as well as differences in loadings. If you consider them the same, then you must lump the earlier 7.62 CETME cartridge in with them as well.
Some weapons can chamber both - it doesn't mean they are safe with all of them. Some guns are designed to handle both safely - many bolt actions can safely be shot with both. Some SA's can too, some can't.
It's the same way with the .223 Rem vs. the 5.56X45 NATO round - very similar, but not the same. Most AR-15's can be shot with both, a few specify only one or the other. The .223 Rem TC Contender pistol should never be shot with 5.56 ammo.
Question, who here would shoot Russian or Czech 7.62X25 in an M1895 Mauser chambered for 7.63 Mauser?
Who would shoot Winchester 9mm Magnum in a Star chambered for 9mm Largo?
Same case dimensions - same cartridge, right? :hmmm:
Some weapons can chamber both - it doesn't mean they are safe with all of them. Some guns are designed to handle both safely - many bolt actions can safely be shot with both. Some SA's can too, some can't.
It's the same way with the .223 Rem vs. the 5.56X45 NATO round - very similar, but not the same. Most AR-15's can be shot with both, a few specify only one or the other. The .223 Rem TC Contender pistol should never be shot with 5.56 ammo.
Question, who here would shoot Russian or Czech 7.62X25 in an M1895 Mauser chambered for 7.63 Mauser?
Who would shoot Winchester 9mm Magnum in a Star chambered for 9mm Largo?
Same case dimensions - same cartridge, right? :hmmm:
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·I did a little research because my Browning Lever Rifle is marked .308 Win only on one side..made in Belgium on the other :hmmm:
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LD, generally it's okay to shoot the Nato load in a .308 gun, but not the other way around. The .308 has much higher pressures - so the lighter Nato load won't over-stress it.
But for say, a Model 1916 Spanish Mauser rechambered to .308 - I'd reload for it, on the light side.
No problem in the stronger M98 actions (Spanish M43, FR8, etc.).
Your Browning is a good strong action too. Being a dedicated hunting gun, there's really no need to shoot the Nato FMJ loads anyway. Unless you find some cheap, and just want to do some fun blastin'!
But for say, a Model 1916 Spanish Mauser rechambered to .308 - I'd reload for it, on the light side.
No problem in the stronger M98 actions (Spanish M43, FR8, etc.).
Your Browning is a good strong action too. Being a dedicated hunting gun, there's really no need to shoot the Nato FMJ loads anyway. Unless you find some cheap, and just want to do some fun blastin'!
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·I'll just stick with Core Lokts or whatever hunting load I can find that the BLR likes :right:
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I just moved in a new home and haven't un packed my books so correct me if I am wrong. I guess i always took for granted that 762 nato and 308 where the same measurements,give or take a few.000. same for the 223 and 5.56. The 222 Mag is the same but a shorter neck.Or is it just loading difference.
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· according to the links I posted and of course BD..Geo the two cartridges are in fact different.. :insane:
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:uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:
I was under the impresion that the NATO rnd was hotter than the WIN, I'll have to check my sources to be sure, maybe I'm confusing the .223 - 5.56 comparison, I'm not sure right now!
:gangster: :gangster: :gangster: :gangster: :gangster:
I was under the impresion that the NATO rnd was hotter than the WIN, I'll have to check my sources to be sure, maybe I'm confusing the .223 - 5.56 comparison, I'm not sure right now!
:gangster: :gangster: :gangster: :gangster: :gangster:
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·Remington’s Core-Lokt 150 grain hit 2,656 fps
The .308 Winchester - Excerpt
By Chuck Hawks
Because of the diversity of loads and bullet styles, it is hard to generalize, but the following are typical American factory loads for the .308 Winchester and are also probably representative of the majority of handoads. The 150 grain spitzer bullet is usually loaded to a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2,820 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 2,648 ft. lbs. The figures at 200 yards are 2,263 fps and 1,705 ft. lbs.
The 165 grain spitzer bullet is loaded to a MV of 2,700 fps and a ME of 2,679 ft. lbs. At 200 yards the velocity is 2,194 fps and the remaining energy is 1,763 ft. lbs.
The 180 grain spitzer bullet leaves the muzzle at 2,620 fps with 2,743 ft. lbs. of energy. At 200 yards it is traveling at 2,178 fps and has 1,898 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy.
There are also premium factory loads that are loaded a little bit hotter. Many of the ammunition manufacturers now offer these loads. For example, Federal's Premium High Energy load for the 165 grain bullet has a MV of 2,870 fps and a ME of 3,020 ft. lbs. Their 180 grain load drives a Nosler Partition bullet at a MV of 2,740 fps and a ME of 3,000 ft. lbs.
The .308 Winchester - Excerpt
By Chuck Hawks
Because of the diversity of loads and bullet styles, it is hard to generalize, but the following are typical American factory loads for the .308 Winchester and are also probably representative of the majority of handoads. The 150 grain spitzer bullet is usually loaded to a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2,820 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 2,648 ft. lbs. The figures at 200 yards are 2,263 fps and 1,705 ft. lbs.
The 165 grain spitzer bullet is loaded to a MV of 2,700 fps and a ME of 2,679 ft. lbs. At 200 yards the velocity is 2,194 fps and the remaining energy is 1,763 ft. lbs.
The 180 grain spitzer bullet leaves the muzzle at 2,620 fps with 2,743 ft. lbs. of energy. At 200 yards it is traveling at 2,178 fps and has 1,898 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy.
There are also premium factory loads that are loaded a little bit hotter. Many of the ammunition manufacturers now offer these loads. For example, Federal's Premium High Energy load for the 165 grain bullet has a MV of 2,870 fps and a ME of 3,020 ft. lbs. Their 180 grain load drives a Nosler Partition bullet at a MV of 2,740 fps and a ME of 3,000 ft. lbs.
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I've loaded thousands of .308/7.62 using commercial as well as military brass (mostly IMI and some Canadian)
I've loaded hundreds of 223/5.56 using mostly military brass.
There are differences in cases related primarily to a primer crimp in the military which has to be reamed or swaged out the first time the case is reloaded. Afterwards the military loads the same as the commercial.
This is not always needed the more modern the military brass gets. Some more modern WCC (Winchester) 223 (oops, 5.56) military has no primer crimp.
Military ammo (unless it's match and loaded with a BTHP) is always loaded with a non expanding bullet, commercial usually is loaded with expanding bullets.
Military ammo also usually employs a crimp around the case mouth to help retain the bullet. This is also done on many commercial rounds, both rifle and especially magnum revolver loads.
Handloading bullets come both with cannelure (the bullet groove for the crimp) and without. You can always crimp or not in a cannelured bullet but never crimp an un-cannelured bullet.
Now, anyone who says that there are significant differences in the rounds should look at any good reloading manual, I suggest Hornady or Lyman for their good cartridge writeups.
Now, as for the 7.63X25 in a Broomhandle, this round is loaded in 2 varieties, the Tokarev and SMG loading, and the Mauser loading. The cartridge dimensions are identical, just the operating pressure of the cartridge is different.
As for 9mm largo, I don't believe the cartridge is the same as the 9mm Win Mag dimensionally, (largo is shorter) it IS pretty much the same as the .38 auto and .38 Super (These 2 ARE identical in dimension, different in operating pressure) although the head dimension is slightly different, I have shot 9mm Largo in a Super and you can go the ther way around as well, just use the .38 auto, not the Super.
You can learn a lot from handloading and have better ammo to boot.....
I've loaded hundreds of 223/5.56 using mostly military brass.
There are differences in cases related primarily to a primer crimp in the military which has to be reamed or swaged out the first time the case is reloaded. Afterwards the military loads the same as the commercial.
This is not always needed the more modern the military brass gets. Some more modern WCC (Winchester) 223 (oops, 5.56) military has no primer crimp.
Military ammo (unless it's match and loaded with a BTHP) is always loaded with a non expanding bullet, commercial usually is loaded with expanding bullets.
Military ammo also usually employs a crimp around the case mouth to help retain the bullet. This is also done on many commercial rounds, both rifle and especially magnum revolver loads.
Handloading bullets come both with cannelure (the bullet groove for the crimp) and without. You can always crimp or not in a cannelured bullet but never crimp an un-cannelured bullet.
Now, anyone who says that there are significant differences in the rounds should look at any good reloading manual, I suggest Hornady or Lyman for their good cartridge writeups.
Now, as for the 7.63X25 in a Broomhandle, this round is loaded in 2 varieties, the Tokarev and SMG loading, and the Mauser loading. The cartridge dimensions are identical, just the operating pressure of the cartridge is different.
As for 9mm largo, I don't believe the cartridge is the same as the 9mm Win Mag dimensionally, (largo is shorter) it IS pretty much the same as the .38 auto and .38 Super (These 2 ARE identical in dimension, different in operating pressure) although the head dimension is slightly different, I have shot 9mm Largo in a Super and you can go the ther way around as well, just use the .38 auto, not the Super.
You can learn a lot from handloading and have better ammo to boot.....
G
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·wonder why my barrel on my Browning Lever Rifle says ".308 Win only" :hmmm:
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well
so you won't touch off a .300 Savage in it?????????
so you won't touch off a .300 Savage in it?????????
Logansdad,
One big difference between the commercial .308 ammo and the military ammo is the bullet jacket. The military ammo has a steel cased bullet other than the commercial copper jacketed bullets. The steel case is about a 1/16" thick with a solid lead core.
This might be why your Browning has .308 Win. only on it.
They say the steel has been softened so it wouldn't wear out the rifling...YA! RIGHT! My hacksaw had a hard time cutting one in half. Needless to say my HK G3 and Mauser will not be seeing anymore military ammo. Use a magnet on any ammo with military markings.
One big difference between the commercial .308 ammo and the military ammo is the bullet jacket. The military ammo has a steel cased bullet other than the commercial copper jacketed bullets. The steel case is about a 1/16" thick with a solid lead core.
This might be why your Browning has .308 Win. only on it.
They say the steel has been softened so it wouldn't wear out the rifling...YA! RIGHT! My hacksaw had a hard time cutting one in half. Needless to say my HK G3 and Mauser will not be seeing anymore military ammo. Use a magnet on any ammo with military markings.
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·what about 7.62 NATO ? :hmmm:GeneCockrell said:
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Way to go Gene
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Sorry ,for two. Gene the new 38 super aka "stupid" doesn't headspace on the rim anymore. I guess its gotten better after the changes.I converted my super to 9MM and at least it hits what I aim at.
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