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There are people that think the 7.62x25 are useless.

Well, ya know there are people right now in Russia.
that use, pistols quite often and the concensus I have heard of is that the 7.62x25 (T33 and Cz52) is one of the favorites
because it works very effectively
I guy I know from Denmark told me this when I showed him My Cz52.

Mmmmmmm
Not the first time that Soviet Armorments where wrongly concidered less that adequate.
there are not many things that the Soviets do Well.
One thing that they seem to Accell at is
Weapons.
This has been proven over and over again and again.
I understand the "opposition" to the 7.62x25 cartrige
due to it's "ethnicity"
IMHO the complaints of the 7.62x25 cartrige are Emotionally based
Not technically based.
it does exactly what they want it to do very well.
You have to understand what they wanted the pistols to do in the first place.

Have you got time for a short story?

in 1920's Soviet Union the NKVD and the new "red" army had a hodgepodge of different pistols and calibers, from .30 nagants' to
.44 russian Smith & Wesson's
They where still figguring out this whole "Central Control Idea"
They liked the 1903 colt and the .30 mauser
so, they needed a pistol to work for everybody,
Police, NKVD, and the Officer Corp of the Red army
and it had to be something that could be simple enough to make indegeniously.
they came up with the T33 Tokerev
There where several "issues" that the T33 services very well.

1) Penatration.

The NKVD officers complained that .45 bullets did not allways penatrate the thick winter coats that everyone wore in the wintertime.
one thing the Soviets did exceptionally poorly, was make consumer goods. One of the most common that they had the most trouble with was Cloth.
Have you seen how big and complicated a cloth loom is? thats a big machine.
Therefor since cloth material was not as easily avalible, The soviets made their greatcoats out of Felt.
Wool Felt, an inch thick or more if the person is wearing a double layer, then 2inches
Felt is easy to make ya cart the wool pour it in to a tray with some cemicals, roll it out and viola!
Felt is also very dense.
The 7.62x25 was very effective at penatrating layers of felt.

2) Ease of manufacture.
The steelmills only had to make one barrel stock, (.30 cal)
same for pistols, rifles, machine guns,
3) wound charcteristics
The NKVD (later to become the KGB) had thousands and thousands of officers. they could cover the entire City, even in Moscow.
Their policy was to shoot anyone that ran from them.
They didnt want to kill outright every one they shot.
So think of it, you are a counter revolutionary running dog spy! and you get questioned by a NKVD state security officer. ya slug him and run
he fires and wounds you.
you get away.
With a gun shot wound in Russia where are you going to go where they wont find you?
a good body cavity shot with a 7.62x25 will eventually incapicate most humans. and can cause a slow agonizing death.
3 days later you go to the hospital, any hospital and there they are. waiting to question you.
thats exactly what they wanted to do in he first place, but now, they know you have some reason to run.
If they want to kill you the 7.62x25 is very effective when fired directly into the brain.
(After questioning)
4) Ease of training.
Most young men in the Soviet Union where simple folk from rural areas.
Likely as not the most complicated machine the conscripts had operated prior to training would have been a ox drawn plow.
something as complicated and mysterious as a pistol would be a great technoligical leap.
So, when shooting a moveing target(like a running dog counter revolutionary)it is not necessary to teach "leading the target"
The 7.62x25 is so fast at pistol ranges that it becomes very easy to hit a moveing target.
and at greater distances too.
The cartrige in inherently accuate.
These are just a few reasons why the Soviets Chose
The T33 and the Czech Cz 52 in the 7.62x25 caliber.
 

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i read about it in the glow of the campfire Dennis, some really wacko stuff claimed. until some one wacks a perp with the CZ52 its gonna go on. my challenge stands if any one thinks a cartridge is in effective, let him stand 100yds down range, while i take shots at them.:eek: :eek: :D
 

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I think, from zero experience, (hey at least I admit it) that the 7.62x25mm is a fine round and that it could be very effective for American civilian use if loaded with bullets designed for maximum emergy transmission into the target. I also agree with the range issue. Somehow, the CZ-52 just seems like a great design. I almsot feel silly not having one, but other gun priorities are ahead of it.

One thing seems wierd, though, I sometimes catch us fans of foreign weapons, I dunno, romanticizing the cruel and tyrannical methods of their governments. I think we can agree that they made good weapons without speaking too fondly of how they used them.
 

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History channel "Tales of the Gun" has one episode on Russian arms that is fascinating. Turns out that the Russians were instrumental in the thriving of the American arms industry (esp. S&W and Winchester) after the Civil War. The Czar went on to start his own gun industry that eventually was taken over by the Communists after the revolution. Lots & lots of very soundly engineered items were turned out. Watch for the program. Worst mistake any military can make is to underestimate a potential opponent.
 

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Wow! How did I miss this thread? 4 CZ52's and counting! (BRG3, you SHOULD feel silly) Get them while you can, good and cheap, but not cheaply made! :right:
 

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The Russian Army armed more than 3 million men with the PPSh41 submachine gun using this cartridge as their primary (only) weapon. I'm sure that if they thought it lacked lethality, they would have changed it It was their main weapon in the hundreds of close-fought infantry battles. Your guess is as good as mine as to how many German soldiers were killed by it.
 

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All pics are thumbnails, click for larger image

For anyone who's seen the preliminary testing of this round and has an interest. This pic is of a handload for my CZ52 in 7.62X25. Most common bullet weight is 85 gr. I was intrigued by the idea of Sierra's 125 gr. #2020 Holow Point designed for the .30-30 to moderate and longer ranges for white tail. As the bullet on the right attests, expansion is all I could have hoped for. (the bullet on the left is a Seirra 85 gr. round nose shot into the same media at the same distance).

Here's the pistol I was shooting today with more loadings of the Sierra 125 gr HP. Still testing feed, function and bullet stabalization.

Fired a few for function. Every round from the magazine fed and functioned flawlessly. Fired a clip full rapid fire into the embankment at 25 yards and still had NO fail to fire or fail to function. Then fired this group from 7 yards from a sandbag rest.

Good friend Dan Helms was catching brass for me, he sat down and fired THIS group, never having fired a CZ52 before. I'm very happy with this load as the testing progresses.


Also fired the round several times on cardboard at 25 yards. NO keyholing. The round is stabalizing and going throug point first nicely!
 

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Good stuff 4rum!

This makes me want a TTC even more. Dangit, I wish I had the cash to throw at one right now.
 

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Hey all, first post here after searching google for some 7.62x25 info, and 4rum, thats great that you're working up a 125g load, and as I'm about to start loading for my CZ-52 I'm wondering where you started at in your powder charge, and what type of powder, as I have been looking at doing the same bullet for a hunting load.
 

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Hey Draken;

First I would caution you to be careful as there is no loading data that I can find for a bullet this heavy in the 7.62X25. I've been loading for a number of years and know the consequences of 'interpolation' but, I have done some in this instance, starting with a mild load and working up to where I am now.

The load I'm sticking with at present is:

5 gr. Unique
125 gr. Sierra HP #2020
Starline Brass
Win. Standard Small Pistol Primer

Due to it's length this bullet has to be set very deep. Careful examination reveals that the case mouth comes just to where the ogive begins. I am able to maintain contact with the full length of the short neck of the 7.62X25 neck. The loaded rounds DO fit into the magazine (8, to capacity) and DO feed and function.

I would not have chose Unique for this project, as I feel there are other powders better suited to the heavy bullet. I think Accurate #7 might be a better choice. I do plan to try it. It might give more velocity with less pressure.

Examination of the fired cases from the above load do not show any signs of excessive pressure in my gun. I'm finally getting to where the spent cases are ejected almost as far as cases from Winchester and S&B loaded ammo. The recoil is not as great yet, and all indications are that this load is safe in my gun. I will do function testing and comparitive penetration testing with the load as listed above. With a lesser powder charge I had acceptable penetration. With the load listed above I feel very confident that the energy of the fired round will expend itself in much less distance that any factory loading.

The first picture above which shows the expansion capabilities of this load using the 125 gr. Sierra #2020 bullet is with a charge of 4.4 gr. of Unique. now at 5 gr. I feel that all that needs to be done is to load and shoot till I am confident with functioning and reliability.

Use care, and spend some range time working up to this load. I personally feel that it has good potential.
 

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4rum, thanks for the info, but was at the store today and found some 110gr bullets that I may give a try since they are just slightly shorter so shouldn't have as much of a problem with seating depth.

If you are getting good velocity and function, then the recoil should be at least as great as the factory 85gr loads...might have to agree with the use of accurate #7, and I will have to pick some more up.

Thanks again for your load info, and trust me, I'll be VERY careful, and may wait till you have tested it a bit more before I go down this road.
 

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I've seen some pretty reliable loading date for 110's. You should feel a lot safer with data that has been tested more thoroughly. I just really like the bullet performance I'm getting with the 125 HP. I think I'm pretty close on pressures to factory loadings for 85 gr. bullets. Fired brass looks very good. I want to shoot the load I have at present into varying media, recover more bullets, and proof the reliability of the loaded round to function. It's a good project.
:AR15firing:
 

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try the sierra 85gr round nose soft point.after alot of testing this bullet gave us constant mushrooms in wet phone books.
 

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The recovered bullet on the left in the picture IS an 85 gr. Sierra round nose. Of the three Sierra 85 gr. round nose bullets fired into the exact same bundle of phone books as the 125, the one pictured is the only one that did not pencil hole and go out into the world on it's own. I think the comparison of the two bullets pictured speaks volumes.

(The 85's were loaded in Starline brass, Win. standard small pistol primer, 6.5 grs. of Unique).
 

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Dang, I was using the magazine at the range to pop out the barrel when the bottom popped off. The spring and follower flew to where I know not. Thank goodness buymilsurp had the parts.
 

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All pics are thumbnails, click for larger image

For anyone who's seen the preliminary testing of this round and has an interest. This pic is of a handload for my CZ52 in 7.62X25. Most common bullet weight is 85 gr. I was intrigued by the idea of Sierra's 125 gr. #2020 Holow Point designed for the .30-30 to moderate and longer ranges for white tail. As the bullet on the right attests, expansion is all I could have hoped for. (the bullet on the left is a Seirra 85 gr. round nose shot into the same media at the same distance).

Here's the pistol I was shooting today with more loadings of the Sierra 125 gr HP. Still testing feed, function and bullet stabalization.

Fired a few for function. Every round from the magazine fed and functioned flawlessly. Fired a clip full rapid fire into the embankment at 25 yards and still had NO fail to fire or fail to function. Then fired this group from 7 yards from a sandbag rest.

Good friend Dan Helms was catching brass for me, he sat down and fired THIS group, never having fired a CZ52 before. I'm very happy with this load as the testing progresses.


Also fired the round several times on cardboard at 25 yards. NO keyholing. The round is stabalizing and going throug point first nicely!
Did you have any trouble with the hollow points jamming? My cz pretty much only likes round nosed bullets.
 

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So far, so good. Through two batches of loadings and two subseqent sessions at the range, I have not had one misfire, fail to fire or fail to feed. Every round has been positive and uneventful (other than that pretty mushroom). I have fired with one or two in the magazine and I have fired rapid fire from a fully loaded magazine. I am very optomistic that this round is safe in my gun and will perform waaaaay better than I ever expected.
 
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