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A state appeals court Wednesday declared Ohio's ban on concealed weapons unconstituti

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Doglips, Apr 11, 2002.

  1. Doglips

    Doglips G&G Newbie

    Pasted from the LA TIMES!!!!! Long but worth the read :)

    By STEPHANIE SIMON, Times Staff Writer

    CINCINNATI -- A state appeals court Wednesday declared Ohio's ban on concealed weapons unconstitutional—delighting gun-rights advocates who are pushing hard to get citizens in all 50 states the right to carry hidden firearms.

    Just six states, all in the Midwest, block citizens from walking or driving the streets with loaded guns tucked out of sight. Ohio has long been one of them.

    But a three-judge panel from the 1st Ohio District Court of Appeals unanimously ruled that the ban violated the first article of the state Constitution, which says that "the people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security."

    Presiding Judge Mark P. Painter read aloud that line from the state's founding fathers, then added: "We believe they meant what they said."

    The decision applies only to the court's jurisdiction of southwest Ohio, including Cincinnati. An appeal to the Ohio Supreme Court is certain.

    Still, advocates of concealed weapons counted the ruling as a major victory. And they predicted it would help sway sentiment in their favor elsewhere across the nation.

    "It's a great day," said Dave LaCourse, a spokesman for the Second Amendment Foundation, a gun-rights lobbying group that funded the challenge to Ohio's law. "We've created a blueprint for potential lawsuits in other states."

    California, he said, was among the likely targets.

    California law allows citizens to obtain a concealed gun permit if they can convince their local sheriff or police chief that they need one.

    Los Angeles a Tough City to Get a Permit

    Local authorities have complete discretion, so standards vary widely. The city of Los Angeles has long been considered one of the toughest jurisdictions; from the late 1970s though the early 1990s, the city went 17 years without issuing a permit.

    The Second Amendment Foundation is considering suing on the grounds that the uneven permit process violates guarantees of due process and equal protection in California.

    Other key targets for gun-rights advocates are the Midwest states—Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, Wisconsin, Illinois and Ohio—that ban concealed weapons. Several have become political battlegrounds this year, as gun-rights groups attempt to capitalize on a new public interest in self-defense they see emerging since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

    The numbers may not bear out the perception of a society increasingly drawn to guns. Despite a strong spike in September and October, the FBI did fewer background checks on citizens purchasing handguns in 2001 than in 2000. The pace is even slower this year.

    Nonetheless, National Rifle Assn. spokesman Andrew Arulanandam says "we're hearing that people are interested more than ever in personal protection, so we see a need for state legislation to address that."

    Thus, a fierce debate about easing the concealed-carry ban was already underway in Ohio before Wednesday's ruling. Missouri and Illinois lawmakers are grappling with the issue as well.

    A bill to allow hidden guns made it through Wisconsin's House earlier this year before Democrats blocked it in the Senate. A Nebraska state senator vows to push a similar bill in his statehouse next year. In Colorado, meanwhile, lawmakers are weighing a proposal to make it easier for citizens to get concealed-carry permits.

    "The gun lobby, like partisan politicians, see the Midwest as a key battleground," said Mark Pertschuk, who fights for gun control as the legislative director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

    "They're trying everything possible and if that doesn't work, they come back and try again," Pertschuk said. "They're relentless."

    Indeed, gun-rights advocates say they are approaching the Midwest fights this year with a refined strategy. They are more willing than in the past to compromise with gun-control advocates—to accept restrictions on who can get a permit, on what kind of training will be required and on where a concealed weapon can be carried.

    In Missouri, instead of pushing for a comprehensive concealed carry bill, gun-rights activists are trying to win the more limited right for citizens to carry loaded guns under their seats or in their glove compartment as they drive through the state.

    The goal, they say, is to get some laws on the books—with the expectation that they can return in a year or two and lobby for easing the restrictions.

    "You've got to get your foot in the door," explained Rick Salyer, a National Guardsman active in the gun-rights movement in Missouri. "Then you can open the door a little more, then a little more. And pretty soon you've got your freedom back."

    The tactic is drawn from experience: In Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee and elsewhere, concealed-carry laws passed years ago after tight restrictions were imposed to appease opponents "who made dire predictions that fender-benders would lead to blood in the gutters," said Joe Waldron, director of the Citizens Committee to Keep and Bear Arms, a lobbying group.

    After a few years, standards were relaxed, Waldron said, "because they found it wasn't a problem."

    Or as Ross Dykman, a Michigan gun activist, put it: "You take what you can get . . . and then, when people see it isn't causing any trouble, you take it further." He plans, for instance, to lobby the state next year to ease the ban on taking concealed weapons into schools, hospitals, bars, day-care centers and sports arenas. He calls it the "baby steps" strategy.

    New Momentum Seen in Ohio

    The appeals court ruling in Cincinnati may give the tactic fresh momentum, at least in Ohio.

    By voiding the state ban on concealed weapons, the judges paved the way for anyone to carry a firearm, with no background check or training. That, in turn, has spurred calls for a permitting system that would impose some controls.

    "We now have no regulation whatsoever," said Hamilton County Dist. Atty. Mike Allen. "It's a public safety issue. Our Legislature has to get off the dime and enact a reasonable concealed-carry law."

    In Michigan, however, Washtenaw County Prosecutor Brian Mackie warns that the gun-rights lobby will work to weaken laws that look reasonable now. "It's a calculated strategy," said Mackie, who opposes concealed weapons. "You have to think about the next step and the step after that. What is it they really want? What is it they will be satisfied with?"

    Striding through his rumpled Cincinnati neighborhood, private investigator Chuck Klein knows how he would answer that question.

    He was the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit challenging the Ohio ban. And he has little use for the baby-step strategy the gun lobby has deployed. Walking streets that were torn by race riots a year ago, Klein says he will be satisfied only when he can take his gun with him wherever he goes.

    He wants the right to carry it into the courthouse, into schools, into his synagogue, into a baseball stadium, into City Hall. That's what his lawsuit was about. That's what he will keep pushing for as the political debate churns on. "If you have the inalienable right to carry a gun, you have the inalienable right to carry it anywhere," he said. "When nobody has a gun except the bad guys, everyone's at their mercy."

    Ohio state Rep. Edward Jerse responds with a plea to put away the slogans and think about the message concealed-carry laws send.

    "We have an unacceptable level of violence in our society," said Jerse, a Democrat. "We have got to change our culture. And you don't do that by throwing up your hands and saying, 'OK, everybody get a gun.' "

    If you want other stories on this topic, search the Archives at For information about reprinting this article, go to
  2. Calvin

    Calvin G&G Enthusiast

    Well, it looks pretty good, considering this is the 2nd time the law has been challenged in a year. And, it's the 2nd time the courts have reversed the old Ohio law. Only problem is that it only applies to Hamilton County (Cincinnati), but if Cincy can get concealed carry, hopefully Governor Taft will realize that CCW is feasible, and that it works. With all of the racial issues in Cincy today, I wouldn't leave my house without one.
    Things are heating up again in Cincy. The BUF (Black United Front) is planning a rally today at a fallen police officer memorial, and the leader has stated that his group are going to perform an excorsism on the statue, as it is a statue of a "dumb white boy". This excorsism involves throwing zebra blood on the statue, which is a memorial of fallen police officers. The mayor is to be in attendance, as are a representative group from various law enforcement agencies throughout Ohio.
    BUF has been warned not to desecrate the statue, but they claim they are going to do whatever they can to shake-up the city leaders. They are protesting police brutality, and this statue represents everything wrong with Cincinnati police. This could lead to riots bigger than Over The Rhine, which happened last year. If I lived in Cincy, I would be packing today for sure. Matter of fact, I'd carry a shotgun in my trunk, an AK in the back seat, and a grenade in the glove box.



    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    Go directly to jail

    ..................and with all of this in mind; you would be the one to be arrested for being a danger to society...............
  4. I like what some states are doing with the concealed weapon issue. And, I'm happy to see a Judge enforce the US or state's constitution.

    But, what scares me is when leftists start arguing over the meaning of the INTENT of the constitutions (and/or if) Judges start making a decision against concealed weapons stating that just because the fore fathers authored the constitutions years ago, they were not always right or correct in their thoughts and intentions or that they referred to an earlier time when the number of Law Enforcement officials and militia were not of sufficient numbers to provide citizen defense.

    I sincerely hope it never gets to that point but, who knows, we see screwy rulings nearly every week.
  5. azeeb

    azeeb G&G Newbie

    I live in michigan and last summer they finally passed "shall issue" concealed weapons permits. Basically anyone who hasn't committed a felony or certain firearms related misdomeaners can get a ccw permit, no questions asked. There was a huge uproar before the law went into effect. Petitions against the law were collected and the state supreme court threw them out saying the were collected illegally, causing even more uproar. Since the law went into effect, the crime right has not gone up like the anti-gunners predicted, and the issue has not even been talked about. In my opinion every state should have shall issue permits. The problem with the old michigan laws is that every single county had a different set of standards when issueing permits, and nobody had any clue what the law was. Some counties gave out permits no prob, others wouldn't give out any at all. Now there is a set standard for everbody throughout the state.
  6. Try living in California, I have been trying to get a CCW permit for three years. Here in california the laws are simple, No one gets one, unless you are rich or famous or a politian you can get a CCW no questions asked. Every one else has to prove that they need one, and a threat is not proof. Some of the rural counties are a little easier than the urban counties like LA, San Fran, Sacramento. Just maybe we can get Simon elected and perhaps he will straighten this mess out....
  7. Dennis

    Dennis G&G Evangelist

    I think it is good to see some people realizing we have to live in the world the way it is, not in the world the way they want it to be.
    When did elected government officials get the Idea that they are responsible for or need to change American culture?
    OH.. Soviet Russia... I frogot.
  8. Calvin

    Calvin G&G Enthusiast

    Good one, Dennis. You are right about the politicians thinking they know what's best for us. I guess it's easier to judge people when you have armed bodyguards, free medical care, the power to change laws as needed to fit your life and wants, and exemption from the very laws you make. Also, the ability to vote yourself a pay raise comes in handy, too. Checking account a little short this month? Nahh, the House checking account will give you $100,000 overdraft exemption, err, I mean, protection.....
  9. Do You Remember ?

    Does anyone remember, a few years ago, when an estimated 87,000 people marched on the Ohio State Capital in protest of a proposed gun control act ? The news media refused to report on this demonstration.
    The same day, thirteen queers demonstrated in Washington, DC, in an attempt to get attention for a gay rights issue and it was all over the national news.
    Since the queers invented AIDS, their guns are as deadly as ours.