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Any trouble with Wolf ammo. - laquer coating?

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by JDW, Apr 7, 2002.

  1. JDW

    JDW G&G Newbie

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    I was a the range shooting away with my sks, using Wolf ammo., and a police officer off duty told me to watch out for the wolf ammo because of the laquer coating. He was going to buy a case and his tactical officer told him not to because it would gum up the chamber. I've been shooting for several weeks and no problem. Just wondered if anyone else had problems or just another wives tale spreading? I don't just blast away with it so it gets real hot, maybe that's why I've had no problem.
    Appreciate your input as I've bought a lot of this suff to have on hand.
    Thanks,
     
  2. Bryan Williams

    Bryan Williams G&G Newbie

    I've shot thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds of Wolf ammo and NEVER had a problem with it. Just make sure to clean your SKS like you would any other gun and you should be fine.
     

  3. Jesse

    Jesse G&G Newbie Forum Contributor

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    The Com-bloc firearms seem to do fine with Wolf as well as all steel- cased surplus ammo. The Wolf .223 can ruin an AR-15's chamber and headspace with continual use. Ruger R&D forbids it's use in the Mini 14 and the P-series pistols. I've even heard of the laquer cased .45 acp rounds fire forming to the chambers of the S&W 625 revolver. I think use in the SKS and AKM is fine... and maybe the Makarov.


    Jesse
     
  4. Klaus

    Klaus G&G Newbie

    I have shot Wolf ammo in .223, 7.62x39, 9x18, and 7.62x54R and never had any problems, except the .223 does not seem very accurate. As I posted before, I think the powder weights in the .223 Wolf ammo are not very consistant. I have never had any unusual fouling.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2002
  5. Dennis

    Dennis G&G Evangelist

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    You would have to shoot laquered cased ammo real fast for a long time to get any kind of build up, and then NOT clean your firearm for it to be a problem.
    Ya gotta remember that sometimes people will give advise to sound important and knowledgable when they are niether.
    Do you believe that the Soviets would make faulty military ammunition for themselves?
    The Soviets, and communists in general have only ever been able to mass produce one quality Item MILITARY WEAPONS.
    the laquer coating on the cases are to seal the steel and powder from moisture. it's been working for decades now.
    If you dont like laquered cased ammunition then dont use it.
    In my experience I have shot truckloads of it and NEVER had a problem.
    Just CLEAN your gun and you should be fine.
     
  6. JDW

    JDW G&G Newbie

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    ammo

    I did not say I did not like the laquer ammo., I asked a question about if there were problems using it as had been told to me at the range.
    What's this about ruger forbidding it in the p series? I've not hear anything about that - been shooting it in our p95 - 9mm pistol. Haven't had any problems.
    Any more input?
    Thanks,
     
  7. Gyrene

    Gyrene G&G Newbie

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    The experiences at our range generally are that ALL Soviet Bloc weapons seem to function very well with Laquered steel or brass cases. They usually are chrome chambers, and the laquer does not adhere well to the chrome, and the steel cases do not scratch the chamber. The US manufactured chambers are a mixed bag, with some of them it becomes impossible to extract the case after as few as 10 rounds because of the laquer coating left in the chamber, and a few have had to have a rod driven into the case through the barrel, to drive the case out. Others never have a problem.
    One of the wealthier shooters has a borescope, and tried the Wolfe ammo in his AR-15. About 3 boxes (60 rounds) into the shooting session,resulted in a failure to extract. He took his rifle home, and thoroughly cleaned the barrel and chamber, then inspected it with his borescope. He found the steel cases had severly scratched the inside of the chamber, and while it left marks on brass cases, it did not interfere with the functioning of the rifle with brass cases. He finds that with the scratches, now he has failure to extract with as few as 15 to 20 rounds fired, because the scratches give the melted laquer a better grip on the inside of the chamber, and the grip gets better and better with continuing use of the laquered steel cases. He sold the remainder of the 4 cases he had for half price, to get rid of it.

    I say it is up to the owner of the rifle, if laquered steel case cartridges shoot well, then shoot it. If you have a problem with case failure to extract, then don't use it.

    I will not use it in anything except for my Soviet Bloc and ChiCom rifles, but that is my choice to make!
     
  8. Jesse

    Jesse G&G Newbie Forum Contributor

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    I agree with Gyrene, Com-Bloc weapons are all I'd use Wolf ammo in.
    To respond to JDW: The informatin I got was from the chief armorer at Ruger's armorer's school who works closely with their R&D department. It seems the laquer shavings or residue will jam the firing pin. I personally cleaned my brother's P-90 after he fired several boxes of Wolf .45ACP and the buildup inside the firing pin channel was substantial. I removed the firing pin during cleaning and the residue gets jammed in the spring and channel so bad it takes a small bronze brush and a pipe cleaner to fully clean it. Wolf is not advised for anything in my book except Com-Bloc weapons.



    Jesse
     
  9. JDW

    JDW G&G Newbie

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    ammo

    What about using the Wolf in my Yugo - sks - doesn't have a chrome barrel - am I setting myself up for failure?
    I use it my Llama 45 also.
     
  10. Hans R Colt

    Hans R Colt G&G Newbie

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    It's only happened to me twice in 2400 rounds of firing...on both occasions, it was a hot day, and I was rapid firing on multiple steel targets. After the 6th stripper clip, the 8th round didn't eject as usual, I had to wait 30 seconds for the case to cool down, and then I was able to cock the bolt handle back to eject the empty case.

    That's still pretty good odds for me.I buy as much Wolf ammo as I can, as the South African stuff, although much more accurate in my rifle, is so much harder to come by.
     
  11. Hans R Colt

    Hans R Colt G&G Newbie

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    This is for JDW...

    The Yugoslavians seemed to prefer brass cases for all their rifles when they had a choice...the non-chromed barrel and chamber on your M59/66 may become an issue regarding getting your chamber scratched by steel cases.

    There was a rumour going around in AR circles about Bushmaster Firearms discouraging the use of lacquer-cased ammo in their guns...but my friend called them directly, and they had made no such statement. I believe that all their barrels are chrome-lined.

    As for US-made guns in 762 x 39, I believe the chambering problems are related to the tighter chamber dimensions preferred by US manufacturers, as opposed to what the military likes, which would be slightly longer and looser chambers for effective feeding/extraction in combat conditions
     
  12. The only wolf I have had any problems with is their .45acp.It ruptures cases with regularity in my .45 and no other brand has this problem in my gun.Their 40 s&w is also very dirty shooting in my opinion.
     
  13. Hans R Colt

    Hans R Colt G&G Newbie

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    I was at the range yesterday and the two worst possible case scenarios came together...an AR-15 and Wolf Ammo!

    This guy with a Bushmaster had a failure to eject with Wolf ammo, within the first 20 rounds. The spent case was so stuck in the chamber that the extractor just slipped back off the case rim when the bolt went back; on the way forward, the bolt stripped off a round from the mag and jammed it under the unejected case, then bending the fresh round and wedging all three items together like 3 yoga teachers playing twister!

    The rangemaster came out of the shack with a leather mallet and a .223 cleaning rod and unjammed the whole terrible setup after about two minutes of gut-wrenching hammering!

    Imagine this situation in the middle of a firefight! Gimme an SKS or AK anytime!
     
  14. Gyrene

    Gyrene G&G Newbie

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    Hans R Colt - Or give me brass cartridge cases in 7.62 x 51, 7.92 x 57, or .30-06, and a rifle with a Walnut Stock (FN-49, M1 Garand, or M14/M1A)!

    They will break down defensive positions, in short order. Not as well as .50 BMG, but will break it down given a little more time. They will reach out and ruin someones day 900 to 1,000 yards away, too. Just ask Special Forces, Navy SEALS, or Marine Recon what they use.
     
  15. Hans R Colt

    Hans R Colt G&G Newbie

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    Gyrene, I heard that the SEALS "appropriated" some AK's for beach landings for their ability to fire immediately after exiting the water, just like the M14s. I've also "heard" that they also acquired some Norinco bullpup AKs for evaluation; I know they dumped the bullpups right away because of that famous internal design flaw.

    I don't know, but if the Israelis were impressed enough with Mr. Kalashnikov's rifle to copy it, maybe something's good about it.
    I have talked to a former com-bloc vet who didn't like SKS' performance in prone defensive positions while dirt and debris were flying through the air, because the stuff always seemed to find its way into the open action! But that AR fiasco at the range just shocked me! I thought the Bushmaster's chrome bore and chamber would protect it from the lacquer coating, but, MAN! That rangemaster was hammering away like Michelangelo trying to make the deadline! I've seen other ARs have cycling probs even with brass cases(the guy was using American Eagle ammo). But no one can dispute the long-range tackdriving ability of a tricked-out AR...not even the SIGs can touch 'em, especially with the SS109 bullets.

    Have you read the passages in that book, "Blackhawk Down," about the difficulties them Rangers had with their rifles, and the less-than-satisfactory performance of SS109 on soft targets like Somali gunmen?
     
  16. johno

    johno G&G Newbie

    I have the book, and i did read all about the problems they had. that is one of the several reasons that I don't like AR's. I've seen stuff like what hans R. Colt described happen even with military brass cased ammo. if I were to go into combat, i would take almost any other availible weapon over an AR. I don't trust them.
     
  17. Hans R Colt

    Hans R Colt G&G Newbie

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    For the record, I'd like to say that I don't dislike every design Eugene Stoner ever made...rather, I would have preferred that the Pentagon approve for general issue the rifle that Mr. Stoner thought was the next logical step forward...the AR-18.

    It's design advantages have been proven through the great numbers of weapons designers that have copied it's operating system:

    1. The Steyr AUG
    2. Bushmaster's M17 Bullpup
    3. Singapore's last two rifles, the SAR-80 and SAR-21
    4. HK G36
    5. Enfield L85A1
    6. Beretta AR70
    7. SIG 540/542
    8. The Israeli Tavor Bullpup

    All these rifles use a multi-lug rotary bolt reciprocating within a bolt carrier, with a dual-spring recoil return system pioneered by Eugene Stoner.

    PS-I forgot about the Robinson Armaments M96 Expeditionary Rifle- AR-18's grandchild !!
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2002
  18. Klaus

    Klaus G&G Newbie

    The AR-15/M16 was an ill concieved hastily designed weapon. The AR-10 had been extensively tested, under all sorts of conditions, and was very reliable. The Army, in it's wisdom, decided to scale down the AR-10 for the .223 and rush it into production with minimal testing. They ignored the implications of the much tighter tolorences and clearences throughout the rifle. The possibilty of capillary action trapping water in the gas tube never occured to them. Then after the tiny bit of testing they did was over, they switched to a much dirtier ammo and sent large numbers of soldiers to use them in very moist jungles. The rest is history. Stoner had continued running tests and was well aware of the reliability problems, but the Pentagon politicians refused to adopt his suggestions about ammo and modifications. He redesiged the AR's gas action to incorporate a piston and cylinder, instead of the gas tube. He actually designed a refit kit to add the pistons to existing M16s. The Army was not interested and warned him against spreading "rumors" about reliability problems with the M16. Stoner then designed a new rifle around the piston action in the hopes that it would be adopted to replace the M16. That was the AR-18. The Army refused to seriously consider it for political reasons. They did go for a bunch of half-assed patches to the M16, including the infamous "forward assist plunger", that ended up makeing the M-16 much more expensive than the original .308 AR-10, though it still was not anywhere near as reliable, since the cause of the problems still remained.
     
  19. Hans R Colt

    Hans R Colt G&G Newbie

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    I've read about that M16 refit called the Counterpoise System where you would hog out the gas port hole to a larger size, then retrofit the buffer system with one that has a stiffer spring and smaller but heavier buffer; there's also a retrofit D-ring to sandwich between the extractor and the bolt for better extraction performance. Don't know if the DOD has approved the retrofit, though.
     
  20. johno

    johno G&G Newbie

    I'd love to try either the AR-18, AR-10 or the retrofit kit. I've been told my reserve unit is getting deployed overseas within a year, and the last thing i want to take is an M-16. but i doubt i'll get to take anything else, except maybe a SAW
    johno