AR 15 craze

Discussion in 'Survival Discussions' started by 46camper, Aug 3, 2020.

  1. Jim Bridger

    Jim Bridger G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    The STG 44 Nazi Assault rifle predated the AK-47. Do you suspect the Brilliant Russians who captured tons of STG 44 Assault rifles never copied them? What!:rolleyes:
    Select fire 7.92 X 33 caliber.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Jim Bridger

    Jim Bridger G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    I bought the BCA .450 BM upper for $430. It is a great round and a nice upper.
     
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  3. 46camper

    46camper G&G Enthusiast

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    They copied


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  4. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    I'm not sure Special Forces groups should really be part of the conversation. They buy and field tons of non-standard weaponry - virtually every set of pictures of any nation's special forces shows at least one guy with an IWI, Steyr, SIG, or HK product. These groups also often use weapons mainline troops have considered obsolete for decades, and take pride in carrying different weapons from what the "regular" guys do. Basically, they are a different breed of folk.

    There is a picture that has been making the rounds around the internet of a modern Green Beret carrying a Swedish K - a weapon his grandfather might have carried in Vietnam.

    Colombian Special Forces also carry crossbows in their arsenal, so I'm not sure about their life choices
    [​IMG]

    besides that, the special forces of many of the countries you mentioned also carry AK vartiants:
    Colombia
    [​IMG]

    Britain - technically the 200 Gurkhas currently attached to the British SAS:
    [​IMG]

    France:
    [​IMG]

    India (who carries a crap-ton of variants):
    [​IMG]

    Mexico:
    Couldn't find a picture, but Wikipedia, IWI and the Mexican government all list Galil rifles as being used by Mexico's special forces.


    Australian Special Forces announced they are ditching their M4s in favor of a domestic take on a Steyr design, and Italy might be ditching theirs IF we ditch ours for a Beretta design. Most of Japan's special forces in most pictures seem to be carrying Howa rifles - an AR-18 variant, not an AR-15 one.

    Besides, if we are going by what special forces carry, out of 195 recognized countries in the world, the Special Forces groups of 158 have AK variants. If we consider countries too small to have dedicated militaries, but who instead use police as a defense force - and train troops as a combination SWAT/Special Forces, we can bring that number up to 183.
     
  5. Get Out

    Get Out G&G Evangelist

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    IMOA an AR isn't critical if you have other reliable weapons to fall back on.
     
  6. Jim Bridger

    Jim Bridger G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    The American Military projects the next conflict will not occur in the jungle. They are testing rifles with longer range capabilities. :usa2:
     
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  7. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    They arent really ditching the M4 because they werent mass issuing them to start with.

    The Australians have been using a Steyr AUG variant called the F88 Austeyr as their primary infantry weapon for over 40 years now. The new one you are talking about is the EF88 which is going to fix or improve several of the downsides of the F88. (Its a 40+ year old design and it was tirme for some much needed improvements). The EF88 started to repalce the F88s four years ago.

    But the reasons the SAS had/has been using the M4 for much of their work over the past 20 years had less to do with any design improvement that a new version of the AUG could fix and more to do with the controls handling and nomenclature of the M4 being a faster/handier gun to run than the AUG bullpup design.The other improvements are nice but it still doesnt change the fact that its a bullpup which have several deficiencies in of themselves... just having a shorter footprint isnt the end all be all of an assault rifle.

    The Isralies had the same things with their TAVOR bullpup rifle... it had problems and some of the improvements that came out in the later versions were... yep... more controls laid out similar to an AR15... like the magazine release.

    The AR15 has several things going for it... one of them being ergonomics and design layout... sort of like the 1911... its control layout and overall design are hugely popular in the design of countless other handgun platforms... same with the idea of Glocks striker fired design...

    it spawns other similar designs which then leads on to bigger and better things that continue pushing the gun tech wheel along.

    You mentioned the number of countries using AK varients... there are quite a large number of nations using AR15 variants that spawned from the M4. Such as Canada or Japan, or Korea etc. with some very close ones or all of the other spawned designs that have taken the general layout and controls schemes of the AR15.

    And some of these designs start really evolving into completely new designs but you can still see the AR15 heritage.

    Sort of like the Israelis Galil ACE being an improved AKM.

    The Russians new AK12 took 4 generations of tinkering to get it to where it is now and while its still very similar looking to an AK... its very much a completely different and modernized weapon system.... that fixed or added a lot of things to the AKM/ AK74 rifle platform... that the AR15 had already been doing for years.

    The new AK12 is about as close to an AK variant as a Gen 3 Sig MCX is to an AR15. You can defiantly trace the DNA/lineage/heritage of the new guns... they look similar, the controls are set up the same, some of the internals are similar/the same... but they are also completely different enough on the inside from the original that its something new and improved.

    it will be pretty interesting to see just how far we can go with firearms before we get into something completely different... like energy based weapons (the star trek phaser) or small arms miniaturized electromagnetic rail guns (District 9/ Elysium) or even other types of energized plasma weapons (the star wars blaster). :D


    btw, we arnt going with the Beretta assault rifle, The Beretta AR70/90 sucks lol and they can keep it.

    The US Army is still down to the final three M4 replacements testing and Beretta isnt even in the mix.

    :usa2:
     
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  8. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    There might have been a misplaced comma there or some other misunderstanding. The ITALIANS are going with the Beretta if we give up the M4. I never said WE were.

    According to Italian media, the logic goes thus: if America is no longer using the M4, and America is no longer buying Beretta pistols, there is no reason to send more money to America, but all the reason to further subsidize an Italian factory.
     
  9. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    ahh ok. Cool. they can still keep their POS assault rifle though. :p Good luck with that Italy. I dont even know what the point of them saying that was though as they have been using the Beretta as their mainstay weapon now for years and they only had a couple M4s for whoever special units wanted them... Im sure the US military doesnt care lol. actually they probably care zero as FN Herstal and to a smaller extent colt are the only ones taking a business loss from that move and its probably not a big one anyways.
     
  10. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    Canada is using an AR-15 variant, but Canada also stays way behind the rest of the world in infantry rifles. There are still guys in their 20s in the Canadian military that have at one point been issued Lee-Enfield rifles. Going to Canada for weapons advice is like going to Cambodia for infrastructure advice.

    Japan has been moving away from the AR-15. Since 1989 they have been replacing it with an AR-18 derived weapon. Literally the only shared characteristic is a bolt design - and arguably controls, but we'll cover that later. Japan is not using an AR-15 variant.

    Korea has moved almost entirely to the K2 series of rifles which again shares a bolt carrier group similar to the AR-15 design - but different enough that an international court ruled it a distinctly different design. The rifle also has an AK-based gas system. The rest could arguably be called an HK mutt. We're getting into muddy territory calling this one an AR design - not only did international courts rule that it was not, but it shares as much German and Russian DNA as it does Stoner DNA. It would be like calling a Type-99 Arisaka a Mauser variant or a Glock an Iver-Johnson variant.

    If you are using "control scheme" as an argument, the AR-15 controls are just AR-10 controls, which are, in turn, an improvement on the HK design, which was, in turn, a vast improvement of the STG44 design. The AR trigger group is based on an old Fedor Tokarev design. The HK M27 would arguably be an AR variant by this "control scheme" definition, as would most of the FAL variants and derivatives in the world, and more than a few "AK" variants.

    The AR-15/M16/M4 is a bit of a turd militarily - unarguably the worst of all the Stoner designs. There are several international weapons systems based on the Stoner 63, quite a few more based off the AR-18, but I can't find a single new rifle system based off the AR-15/M-16 series anywhere in the world, and none of the ones you named are derived from it.

    As a side note to my previous post. It seems we may have both been wrong about the U.S. possibly choosing a Beretta design. The General Dynamics gun that the Defense department is looking at is a Beretta variant according to a GD press release, "For gun-making expertise, GD joined with Beretta USA..." The Textron design is apparently an HK variant. This means that none of them are remotely Stoner-adjacent.
     
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  11. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    Wow. I had ARs before most of those guys were born. Glad to see the followed my lead. LOL Hard to argue with that many experts.

    After reading all these comments it seems to me there are lots of fine semi-auto rifles out there, most if not all would serve all of us civilians well. My common ARs in terms of accuracy and attachments are superior to what I carried in the military. Just a simple M1 carbine or Mini 30 or basic AR would serve us all very well. Lucky us. And now with the likes of the 350 Legend and the 450 BM, 300 BLK and a dozen others the field is well covered. Wonder what is next? How many rounds has the AR now been adapted to take counting the many pistol rounds, 25-30?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  12. Ranger4

    Ranger4 G&G Evangelist

    OK if you want a decent AR ((((in 223/5/56)))tonight for a decent price, here goes. Sportsmans Guide, complete lower, Anderson brand, nice nickel plated hammer and trigger for decent pull, $218--https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...multi-cal-magpul-stock-and-grip-tan?a=2130601
    Then an upper, Bushmaster complete with bolt carrier group and charging handle $349. https://www.cdnnsports.com/bushmaster-ar15-upper-556-16in-complete-v-match.html

    3 aluminum magazines $30. https://www.cdnnsports.com/ar15-223-30rd-alum-gray-teflon.html?___SID=U

    Then you need sights and ammo. Any $50 scope from Walmart will work for deer, I killed my first 2 Boone and Crocket mule deer, one in Colorado and and one in Wyoming, with a $50 scope on different rifles, they last for a while. Then all you need is ammo. $147 buys you 500 rounds of ammo, silver bear is good among the import grade and this is soft point.https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/silver-bear-223-remington-sp-62-grain-500-rounds?a=1588408
    $67 scope that will do you well, 3 x 9 illuminated and they do very well. https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/hammers-3-9x42mm-ar-15-rifle-scope?a=1168754 I bought a half dozen for the kids, in a dozen years never had one fail. Just saying, the gun is about $600 with 3 mags, another $67 for scope and whatever amount of ammo you want, but my quote gets you the gun, the scope the 500 rounds and all for about $810 plus tax and shipping. That ammo and set up will last you a very long time, if you train well and do not wast it. Anyway, just showing you some places to look. Or you can buy the Cadilac stuff for $2K or so and look much more cool, and then add a $1,500 optic and look really cool. Just saying, those tow Boone and Crocket deer were killed with $200 rifles with $50 scopes, so noting wrong with starting with the base models and working up. They are fun guns. Enjoy.

    If you want the 300 Legend, then you can go ahead and piece these parts/ammo together as you find them on sale, and when the upper comes along, you just slap ii on. Anyway, that is how i have done several now and enjoy the hunt. That 350 has a lot of appeal because you can load pistol bullets into those cases and shoot for cheap. Anyway, good shooting.
     
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  13. MosinRuger

    MosinRuger G&G Evangelist

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    IE deserts.
     
  14. 46camper

    46camper G&G Enthusiast

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    That’s how will end up doing it most likely . I figure after the gun shops around here see . Most of the local people will go after bolt actions and the single shot rifles . The price will go down on the CMMG chambered in .350 ledgend .
    If that happens I will get that . So I will for now just plan on building one.
    Your right about the cheaper scopes . I had a cheap $50 Bushnell on a shotgun . It lasted several years . It was 2.5x32 it even got a heck of dent by the objective lens. Still held its zero.
    I have a bolt action chambered in . 350L . I’m learning to work the bolt fairly quick and still be able to hit a target . At mid and short ranges.
    It’s definitely not a semi auto.
    I’m hopeing that before long to have a AR 15 . If things go through I will have it by November.
    The AR is definitely the best battle rifle out there.
    I also believe that if SHTF happens that with what I have I will be able to survive. Also in the terrain that I live in and the type of people that I would be up against in SHTF . I believe a pump or semi auto shotgun would get me through.
    The AR would be better.
    My plan is in SHTF is to stay home or to go to some of my families property out in the country. They live deeper in the country then I do.
    Like someone else said haveing some type of firearm and a plan . It is better than most people have.
    The boys and I have been working on a plan for a couple years. So if SHTF happens I have what it will take to make it


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  15. redcaddy51

    redcaddy51 G&G Evangelist

    I fell out of lust with the AR platform in the 70's, however, 40 years of beta testing and R&D work by others, forced me to take another look. This time around, I caught the timing just right.

    At the end of the FN-FAL building boom I switched to the AR. Much of my tooling and building skills transferred over. I was making enough leading build parties that my parts pile got out of hand and, over a couple of years, I filled a safe with pistol caliber carbines, pistols and SBR's.

    I'm Still cold trailing a reasonable price source for binary triggers. ( I have a few, but I feel I paid way too much, to waste ammo at a higher rate. They do offer a needed advantage in social work though. (everybody knows your location, but don't want to visit...)

    My primary EDC has changed to a double stack .45 pistol appendix carry and a tricked out 11-87 20 Ga. in the truck, In place of the much heavier FN-FAL. 200 rounds each, .45 and .223 and a battle vest will solve the problem at hand and get me home to the good stuff.

    Even my pistol caliber carbine, (7.62 X 25) that is a frequent flyer in the truck, is well capable of min. of running azzhole @ 100 Yds. offhand and the .45 is adequate for anything closer.

    If the Marxists give me a reason, in my town, I'm well equipped to deal with whatever brand of crazy they choose to visit upon me (We had a small group of BLM'ers , 2 white guys, 2 black guys and a blue haired thing that was NOT CLASSIFIED, but assumed to be female from the incoherent screaming) try to start something here, but were quickly persuaded to go back to Duval County and stop annoying folks here in Sarasota)

    I noted, with interest, AG Barr's interview with Levin. Now just waiting for the lid to come off. I don't see choice of weapons to be nearly as important as the will and ability to use them conservatively and effectively.

    RED
     
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  16. animalspooker

    animalspooker G&G Evangelist

    Redcaddy shares his brilliance once again (being sincere here). I have a wife and four kids/stepkids in the house. They all know how to shoot. Each has an AR of some form in the house with lots and lots of ammo. They don't know they have them, but they do and they know how to shoot them. One equation I live by - ARs in the house is greater than or equal to the number of residents in the house!
     
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  17. MosinRuger

    MosinRuger G&G Evangelist

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    not to de-rail the whole thread there, but this actually highlights the reality we are in.
    neither the upper or lower or ammo are in stock or available to purchase. sure the mags are, and they are cheap, but i suspect that is because no one can get any ammo to put in them!

    back to the reason for the thread, an AR is probably the best option out there. but, if you cant get one you'll just have to make the best of what youve got. and someone that is skilled and well practiced with a bolt gun and a shotgun, could probably do pretty well against someone with an ar and no practice/ training. so its not the end all be all.
     
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  18. johnlee

    johnlee G&G Newbie

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    The AR is nice, but it's not a must. Go with whatever you have, considering that you will also need parts and a scope, that definitely adds up to more $$$ than expected.
     
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