Build for 500-600 meter shots

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by TACAV, May 17, 2008.

  1. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    So for my next AR I want a longer barreled varmint type build.
    Probably a 20-24 inch barrel, Magpul PRS stock, bipod, and a good scope. You can all guess where Im going with this lol.

    It ill be the big brother to my other 16" carbine setup.
    Anyhoo, Im looking to shoot out to probably around 500-600 meters.

    Do you think Id be ok using a barrel set up for use with higher powered 5.56 and/ or .223 rounds or should I go for something bigger like a 7.62x51/ .308 or something else?

    What am I using it for? Dunno, range gun, fun, the ever present zombie threat? who knows why not lol.
     
  2. at4rxj

    at4rxj G&G Newbie

    Check out this guys stuff...
    Welcome to the Dtech Superstore

    He makes some very accurate uppers. I have a 243wssm he built for me, and it's extremely accurate. You could stick with the .223, or go up to one of the wssm cartridges if you wanted. I would check his stuff out.

    Charles Daly also makes a 24" stainless barreled upper that looks nice. Check it out too.
     

  3. 500-600 yards?

    Save some money...get yourself an AR15 set up for DCM (Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship) matches--or, just get a normal HBAR with at least a 1-9 twist. 1-7 works even better if you plan on using the heavyweights.

    The Marine Corps has been using these for years; their qual course is fired at 200, 300 and 500 yards, and they do it with iron sights. The 55 grain FMJBT will do that, no problem. For 600, you can use a 62 grain bullet, which the 1-9 twist will stabilize. Anything heavier, get a 1:7 twist.
     
  4. Pred

    Pred Guest

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    I'd say a 20" stainless steel barrel(will be 1x8 twist), two stage trigger, and at least $250+ on an optic. If you plan on adding stuff like a bi pod, grip, and a light, free float the forearm. Now, if you really want a true SHTF rifle, a M4 profile, chrome lined 1x7 upper. With some decent optics 500 yards shouldn't be a problem.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2008
  5. Yip yip.

    What kind of optic do you prefer? I kinda like an Aimpoint--the M2 especially--with a bit of a booster if I want magnification. And, what barrel? For pure target applications, I think I'd like a Krieger; if I want the M4 profile, I'd stick with a Colt barrel or complete upper.
     
  6. I have a Colt Match Target rifle with a 1:7 twist I shoot Sierra 69 gr match bullets loaded with Varget at 600 yards at my range when I use my AR. The OAL is custom to my chamber. It shoots SS-109 62gr better than m185 55 gr. at 100, 200, or 300 yds. If I known in advance it's going to be a 600 yd. course then I break out a 30 cal. I have seen 20 inches of windage correction with the 69 gr and heavier gr bullets with the 223 with only 6 inches with 30 cal.
     
  7. I also want something other than my 14.5 inch M-4gery for longer range shotting. Maybe a new upper in 6.5G. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a AR-10 in .308 either.
     
  8. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    hmm thanks for the ideas.
    Pred, Im planing on putting the fore grip, light, etc on my 16"er and probably an EoTech or an AIMPoint. This set up will be fore 100-200 or shorter i guess. Close in stuff were a pistol or shotgun wont do.


    This new build will only need a decent scope, stock, and bi pod, for extras.:AR15firing: You know, for when you need to reach out and touch those straggler zombies who happen to stumble upon your property lol.
     
  9. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Please excuse my bluntness.
    I have shot many thousands of rounds at 500 and 600 meters with a standard M16A1 and M16A2 and if YOU have real good CENTER X or V groups at 100 meters you will do just fine.

    Making your rifle all fancy with this and that all over it, doesn't help it shoot better, that is YOU and how good of a ZERO you have on it. A Plain Jane M16A2 with a person who knows what they are doing behind it will shoot some pretty decent groups at 600 meters, but you want a DEAD CENTER V zero at 100, because every 1 inch you are off at 100 you will be 6 inches off at 600.
    I have a M16A2 HBar and I will use it for Close range or for 600 meter and with confidence. It doesn't have scopes, fancy grips, bi-pods or anything else. The rifle alone can not shoot 10 yards with accuracy it is the person behind the stock that allows that to happen.
    Save your money on the fancy stuff and just learn to be able to hit the target first with the rifle as is. When you accomplish that feat, then add what you feel will help you.

    I shot Matches with over 750 competitors and what use to amaze me was how many couldn't shoot. How many didn't have a clue for a Good Position, how many who left when they had a Sighting in group that looked like a shotgun blast and how many yanked on the trigger or had too tight of a sling.

    There are all kinds of things that will improve your shooting skills, long before you waste your money on decorations.
     
  10. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    I agree with WW.The more 'gadgets' you put on,the more things you can blame for sloppy shooting when it is really only you.I do agree with the longer barrel.Altho I have seen good performance with 20"bbl,s at 500yds by using handloads designed for the firearm and the range. sam.
     
  11. +1 !!!!
    Training and practice.
     
  12. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    And I totally agree with you Wingwiper,

    Please excuse my response if it sounds blunt. :09:
    Im not trying to "compensate" my shooting skill with attachments. I chose that particular stock because I shot with with it before on my friends gun and it was pretty comfy.
    And why wouldn't you want to put a good scope on a gun as opposed to one that is crap?
    Anything I put on my gun has a purpose and is not there just to make it "look cool."
    I was hoping to get some info on the best barrel twist rates or ammo to use for longer shots etc As from what I understood, by 600 meters the 5.56 is reaching maximum "effective" range. I know its not uncommon to hit targets out to 1,000 meters with it.
    If Im wrong please enlighten me!

    This is like someone saying. Hey I want to get a BMW, what are the best options I should get?
    "Dont drive a BMW until you can master the Honda Civic."
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
  13. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Tacav

    My reply was to everyone who could benefit. You did mention RANGE GUN.

    The M16 as it is, is quite capable of shooting great groups at 600 meters and that is with Standard BALL ammo. The M16A2 with the Green Tip and the 1 in 7 twist had problems at longer ranges. The Green Tip had a Tungstin core that was NOT always centered and caused wobble in flight. My Team shot regular 55 gr Ball with the A2s and had Excellent results at 500 and 600 meters. We didn't get those FLYERs that cost points as did the Teams that used the Green Tip with the A2s.

    The stuff that was being suggested is NOT going to make the gun shoot any better. The barrels will make a difference, but you will have to experiment with proper lead and charge differences to find what will perform the best with the different barrels.

    My point and still my point, that Bi Pods, Aim points and all the other Hoorah isn't going to make the weapon shoot any better if the Shooter behind it isn't capable. I read many many posts in these forums where people seem to think if their firearms look mean, then they are mean..Negative. Only if you can hit the target consistantly will that hold true.

    I competed for many years with the M16A1 and the M16A2 and I have seen just about everything. I shot Combat Precision and competed against the BEST teams from every state and each territory from ACTIVE and RESERVE components. I am not here to honk horns, but offer information from my Experiences and that is what I was doing. I saw many a Rambo walk up to the firing lines over the years and I saw their results, pathetic at best. The HIGH scorers at the 500 and 600 yard lines were Shooters who didn't have fancy gadgets and decorations and Kbars upside down on their LBE, they were serious shooters who knew Positions, Trigger control, breathing, sight picture, sight alignment, how to read the mirage, sight adjustment, etc. Their scores reflected their knowledge and not their hoorahs.

    I meant no insult to anyone and from my experience, the hoorah is just that, Hoorah.

    As far as your comparision to a BMW and Honda, I have no clue where you were going. We are talking about MARKSMANSHIP and not Road Handling. My advice was offered to help and not insult. Sorry you took it that way.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
  14. mitch_mckee

    mitch_mckee Guest

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    I like the BONGGGGGGGG that the 7.62x51 makes when it hits a steel target at 400 yds better than the ping made by the 5.56.


     
  15. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    oh dont worry i wasnt insulted and I know you meant no insult :) Thanks for the info though for barrel and ammo types etc, Thats the kind of expirienced answers im looking for.
     
  16. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Good, I was not trying to insult.

    I have a lot of respect for that BLACK GUN and I like her, just the way she is. I will admit, I prefer the A1 rear stock for it is 3/4 of inch shorter and I can wrap my arm around it better for the OFF HAND.
     
  17. Well seeing as how, and depending on who or what you go by that is, and I'm going by the info obtained from the link to follow (under specifications on the right side), that the effective range of an M16/AR15 style rifle is 550m/600yds. Seeing as how this is based on the original rifle, also as issued to a soldier, and that the barrel on the rifles is also the same 1 in 9 twist rate 1X9 as most out there, I'd have to agree with Wingwiper and Sam.
    M16 rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But if one went with a barrel with a 1 in 8 (1X8) twist rate or a 1 in 7 (1X7) twist rate, and got a high/er end optic, as Pred has suggested, I would think 600yds would definately not be a problem.

    In being honest and for the sake of argument, I just checked out the military channels/discovery channels episode, Top Ten Combat Rifles, which I have saved on the DVR it says for the M16/AR15 styler rifles the effective range is only 437yds.. It also differs from the specs, the link shows as far as rounds per minutes. The link shows 800-900 (same section as effective range) depending on model and the episode says 700-950? SO again, that's why I noted depending on who or what you believe. lol
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2008
  18. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Glock

    In the Corps it was 750 - 800 rpm same as the M14. So you are right, BE CAREFUL who you listen to.

    The Old M16A1 had a 1 in 12 twist and the NEW M16A2 have a 1 in 7 twist. I know that the Green Tip was suppose to be more stable using a 1 in 7 because of its increase weight, but OUR results were shooting the old Lighter Ball gave better results and less wobble off course. We took chances we rather have a Lighter rd and a not so tight group than a Tungstin center green tip that would miss the entire target and drop points. NOW I haven't shot a M16 Match since the Mid 90s so I am sure there have been changes.