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6K views 48 replies 30 participants last post by  aris_unlimited 
#1 ·
I was talking with someone from the UK and they told me that Europeans believe Americans get to carried away with large caliber handguns for carry.

This person told me he can not understand why a .357 .45 .40 would be needed to carry? He says in the UK people feel a gun for protection should simply be something you can hit the target with. He himself believes the .22lr .22 Mag .32 acp and .380 acp are all very well for carry or home protection. He owns a Walther PPK in .32 acp and says it will definitely stop someone. He says many in the UK like the .32 acp and own them.

He also says it is a shame that manufacturers such as Bersa and Walther have discontinued the .32 acp.

I told him that I own and carry a Bersa Thunder .32 acp and it is a fantastic gun. Accurate, dependable, and with low recoil easy to get follow up shots. I also have a Bersa .380 for home defense another very good gun.

Why do many Americans carry or use large calibers for home defense? My friend from the UK says they are brainwashed by movies like Dirty Harry or John Wayne. I'm not sure myself why they are. Why do you have to blow a big hole in someone when you can very easily just pull out a small caliber and put several quick rounds in their chest? I mean if you can hit them with a .40 cal pistol you can surely hit them with 2 shots from a .32

He says we are in love with over-kill and that Englishmen simply want something that will do the job without a lot of fuss. Kinda like James Bond I guess, after all 007 used .25 acp .32 acp and .380 acp and no one beat him.

It does make one think, maybe Americans have Rambo obsessions, wanting to be great warriors rather than just defend themselves.
 
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#2 ·
Our friends across the pond have certain limitations and restrictions above and beyond what we have, at least as of today.

It basically boils down to choice and freedom. Also worth mentioning, our sporting arms often times pull double duty as working weapons. Why not be proficient as possible by using what your comfortable with. Then there is ammo availability, etc.

They can use what they like or allowed to use, but don't worry about what were doing here please.
 
#3 ·
Introduction - Gun and Game - Gun Forum

^ We do have an intro forum on G&G where you could share a little about yourself in an introductory post and likely get a proper G&G welcome.

As to your post and your use of the word "overkill" I would simply ask if that is based on experience from the point of view as a victim or from the vantage point of a perpetrator? Those two decidedly different focal points might alter the full meaning of the word for you and your phantom UK friend taking our inventory in a forum new to you...

My 2 cents.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Your friend from the UK... what does he carry? :rolleyes:

James Bond? No one beat him because the movie script didn't allow it.

You carry a .32 because you prefer it. That's exactly why I carry a 1911...because I prefer it... that, and it irritates the heck out of Thrillbilly.... :D

Personal preference rules... as it should

Respectfully sir, welcome to G&G. Glad to have you aboard. :usa2:
 
#5 ·
It does make one think, maybe Americans have Rambo obsessions, wanting to be great warriors rather than just defend themselves.
I would suggest being careful of where you choose to step. Quite a few members of this forum are indeed great warriors in their own right, not to mention the fact that many of our fathers, and grandfathers are responsible for you not currently speaking German. (No disrespect to anyone of German heritage)

Just a brief scan around a few gun forums finds that you have taken many forums to task with magazine limits, weapon selection, and making very few posts before moving on.

Conrad Luznar.... we'll see how things go
 
#6 ·
Why?

Because I can.


And I study things called ballistic tests...mouseguns can and will kill people, but they don't have the best rep for stopping people, or shooting thru bulky clothing, or doing any damage against even light, soft armor.

And in our world, ''defense'' may mean defending against a rifle-armed, armor-wearing mass shooter behind some cover at 25 yards, or a wolf-pack of multiple attackers. I really don't want to face that, but I'd rather face it with a service caliber and size handgun. Because I can't carry a rifle everywhere.

But, carrying any gun is better then not carrying. If someone's physical condition, or attire, or environment precludes their carrying a full-size gun...then a sub-caliber mousegun is better then no gun.


I tend to take anything Europeans say about firearms and personal freedoms with a grain of salt.


And as for ''skill'' or accuracy...that's possible with any caliber, I dont need a .32 or .380 to be able to shoot well. I don't trust any caliber to stop in one shot, Even with a .44mag I would double-tap at the very least. Your scenario of ''shoot them once with real gun or two shots with mousegun'' is NOT very realworld based IMO.

When you consider most mouseguns hold 6-10 shots...and say there's 3 attackers....even with 9 shots that's only 3 apiece. Not even counting clean misses or marginal hits. I doubt there are too many people who are being attacked and can maintain their target-shooting stance and composure.

Lot of difference between shooting a perfect 1/2'' circle group at 7 yards on a sunny, safe range...and trying to replicate that in a defense scenario.


Bottom line is, larger calibers and larger guns/more ammo is just insurance. I'm not James Bond, I don't have nerves of steel and ability to hit an acorn at 100 yards whilst driving my Aston Martin and sipping a martini.
 
#7 ·
Aren't military calibers unlawful for civilian use there? This out the 9mm as it is nato. Maybe this is one reason that some of the other calibers are more common there.

Also, different people can handle different cartridges, I cant quickly accurately shoot a .45, nor can I easily conceal one becuase of my size. Due to this fact I use 9mm and .380. But some people can easily handle the recoil of larger calibers may choose them.

On another note, Im pretty sure tha .22lr and .380 are the most comon carry calibers in the us. Just look at sales of small sized pistols. There have been some new introductions and popularity of 9mm pocket guns , but still probably overshadowed by .380 carry guns.

Also, lets think about the mindset and culture of europe vs the us.
You said "My friend from the UK says they are brainwashed by movies like Dirty Harry or John Wayne."

I counter that with the idea that Europeans are "brainwashed" by socialistic or extremely liberal governments that guns are "evil" and people really dont need them, shouldn't have them, and cant be trusted with them. Especially large caliber or "high capacity" firearms.

So, Piers morgan sounding person, go back to europe and enjoy the liberty restricting laws they already have in place, and stop complaining about ours.
 
#9 ·
My inner guess is that you could be simply trolling, and trying to "stir the pot." This is not the first attempt by those opposing our 2nd amendment gun rights to question our motives.

Our UK brothers have, at least temporarily, lost their legal rights to carry, and some there even question why those "across the pond" fight to not only carry, but choose to legally carry huge calibers. The answer could be summed into these words, "We do because we can."

After you make a proper self-introduction I will then give your post a serious reply. Meanwhile, my reply above, as well as those above who have posted, also reflect my thoughts in regard to your question. Meanwhile, I won't hold my breath waiting for your next trolling appearance.

I hope you will stay a while and attempt to prove me wrong. Americans stand on our constitutional rights while our guns of all calibers protects those rights.
 
#10 ·
Along the lines of ignorance is no excuse..... from G&G rules

2) Trolling – Posting comments with the sole purpose of starting pissing matches with members, libel persons or groups, or to disrupt the forum, will cause your stay here to be short.


Rules
 
#13 · (Edited)
I don't feel like he is a troll. People with little gun knowledge, feel a bullet is a bullet. The Brits have very little experience with handguns. They really can't own them, and sure can't carry them.
Sure a .32, or 22 will kill, but those rounds may take longer to incapacitate giving the bad guy time to plunge that knife into you, or fire the rounds in his gun.
He also joined in April 0f 2012, and this was his second post. Not a trouble maker obviously.
 
#23 ·
Technically it could be argued that his post wasn't actual trolling. However, I have to go with Oxford (he always has a good grasp of things here :) ) The OP's post has several inaccuracies. First, gun ownership of pistols in the UK is very very tightly controlled. You can't by law shoot someone for assaulting you. (my understanding) Furthermore, this is the guys second post and is posted in a GUN Forum.... if this isn't trouble...it is certainly stirring the pot as he knows exactly what the responses will be....provocative to say the least. His first post was also yesterday. Lastly, I do think that his buddy is him. (QUOTE: "I was talking with someone from the UK and they told me") Using "second person" is a common way for someone to stir things up without feeling accountability. And finally, the silliness of his premise "shoot them multiple times rather than once" requires a response that drags you (the responder) down to his inane level of thinking. As to 2 posts since 2008 has little to do with anything other than 1) He has been watching, or 2) He isn't really in this for the sport...
For now I am going to go with troll.
 
#14 ·
Last time I checked, non-military pistol calibers such as .38 super auto, and 10mm auto were pretty popular in Europe where military calibers were restricted. And those are fairly potent cartridges for a pistol.
 
#15 ·
I would have to go back to why the .45 ACP was created in the first place. Yeah in the Phillipines, the US army was fighting the Moros using standard issue .38's. Time after time they would have to use multiple shots to put the bad guys away. Many would take multiple shots and still keep coming. What sounds better to you, having to hit a moving target multiple times with a light small diameter bullet, or hitting them once with a larger diameter bullet that was more likely to do the intended job?

Sometimes bigger IS better!
 
#16 ·
Many of us have military experience with specific guns and calibers. When we get out we prefer to carry and use what we are accustomed to. I carried the Colt M1911A1 in .45 ACP on duty. I carry one now thirty years later. I know it and trust it. Simple, eh?
 
#17 · (Edited)
When it comes to arms for self-defense, only the person to use it can determine what he "needs." When I hear someone say "why do you need......blah blah blah" regarding common firearms it usually means the person asking is wholly ignorant about both firearms and self defense (and has bought into statist anti-gun propaganda about same). Most of these types have cheerfully gone through life letting others defend them wholly ignorant of their surroundings with polyanna type situational awareness. That they are still alive is a testiment to a combination of luck and probabilities--but they have no place telling others how to live life and are probably the least qualified individuals on the planet to do so. Those of us who HAVE had to fight or face threats in our life have quite a different take on asking "why do you need.......blah blah blah." It's usually steered toward helping the individual find the right kind of tool to help him through his life and make a good choice on HIS part. Sometimes it's better to start beginners on mild-recoiling firearms and work their way up to more powerful ones as proficiency and confidence increases. There IS no firearm you can simply point and shoot at a target and expect it to work to stop that target. It takes training on firearm AND person, the person being the most important part of the equation. A firearm is simply a tool.

I almost always carry a NAA .22 Magnum mini-revolver everywhere I go. This ISN'T my first choice in any kind of fight--it is simply handy and doesn't reveal itself to others which could be problematic due to the legalities or social situation of where I am (no sign keeps me from being prudent). Would I be knowingly getting into a fight, I'd try to stay home that day--but if I couldn't stay home or HAD to engage a threat to help others I'd want something commensurate to giving me the highest chance of stopping that threat.

No one will ever know what kind of threat I might face except me and even I might not know but can have a better guess than some bureaucrat who knows nothing about firearms, threats, OR self defense. My primary likely choices would be a rifle or shotgun which I train with depending on the situation--but for this discussion I'm limited to a handgun.

This varies. My Glock 23 is a good compromise of reliability, firepower, and carryability--it's a 14 shot .40 SW and is my primary carry gun with the NAA as a backup. If I'm on the trail in PA I usually choose my Glock 20 SF 10mm. Alternatively, I carry a Ruger GP-100 6-shot .357 magnum revolver and sometimes a J-frame Smith. I'd feel undergunned with any of these in AK bear country but the G20 or GP would probably be OK.

Even my choice of rifles would vary--I'd want my M4 for most situations in TX or PA but might want a .45-70 if I thought I'd encounter dangerous game.

My car gun is a Taurus Public Defender loaded with buck and .45 Colt to suit a close in car situation as best I can figure (there's no way I'll be able to get to my CCW strapped in a car).

The difference in diameter of a 9mm/.38 and a .45 is roughly .1 inch. This is a difference in surface area of 1.6 or so and as such I don't believe there to be significant difference in "stopping power" between a 38, 9mm, .40, .44, or .45. My choice is a .40 in general; others choose differently.

And someone very well trained with a .22 magnum revolver might be able to stop someone equally effectively as me with my higher capacity .40. But my .40 allows somewhat greater margin for less than perfect shots and when we are under stress as humans almost all of us shoot WORSE than when we are sitting at keyboards answering internet posts or shooting steel at the range for fun.

Why do I want more power and capacity than my .22 for average CCW situations ? Simple--ALL rounds have failed to stop at some point or other. People shot 6 times or having direct hits with 00 buck have still stayed on their feet able to do harm. Most people miss several times in a real gunfight and while we'd all love to say we would have perfect shot placement most of the time few individuals have ever done this in practice (and even Frank Hamer, Ed McGivern, Jerry from SW, Col. Askins, Fitz, Bill Jordan and the like miss--and I ain't as good as them and never will be). I want to hedge my bets with the highest probability of reliability, reasonable power, penetration, and capacity for my likely threat situations. No one knows this but me.

One of the BEST things about shooting steel, and competing with others on plates or dueling trees is one encounters the horrible feeling of slide locked back and having to reload while someone else is still shooting. Revolvers give similar feeling and it lasts longer because they take longer to reload. FBI and LE hit rates in REAL gunfights are often around 1 out of 4 to one out of 3 or even less--so I might well NEED that high cap even to stop ONE threat.

In order to work, a bullet needs to get somewhere important creating a wound channel large enough and in a place to incapacitate the threat before the threat hurts you. Different threats respond to being shot differently and unpredictably. Some run away when simply getting shot at (good); some continue to attack while enough blood pressure remains to work nerves and muscles even they are really clinically dead or very close. Since I spent my luck long ago on a wonderful wife, family, and career others only dream of I must assume fate won't give me the person who simply runs away when the chips are down.
 
#32 ·
Griz... I thought we all agreed you would take no selfies before you had your morning coffee... :)

As for the "topic" at hand, there is plenty of data to support the premise that at some point EVERY pistol caliber round has failed to stop a threat at some point. If someone has a need to (See the bear) or just wants to carry a 44 Magnum, who am I or someone from (Insert European Country of Preference) to tell them that is too much gun for them to carry. Seems like a personal preference thing AND a none of my business thing to me.
 
#20 ·
Asking advice for a personal protection side arm to some one from the UK is rather silly. Seeing how it's against the law to defend yourself with a gun in England let alone a citizen carrying one. They would have little advice if any on the subject.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
 
#27 ·
In reality, it starts as a personal choice as to whatever a person wants to carry. Then it becomes a issue of proper bullet placement if you ever have to use the gun in self-defense.
Here in Maine (Hermon, Maine) a couple of years ago, a person used a 22LR to stop an assault and the perpetrator died from the wounds.

And I recall the father of a friend I grew up with that was a part time LEO, that carried a little 32 S&W revolver as his duty weapon. He fancied himself as more like Andy of Mayberry type and didn't want to have to carry a heavy sidearm. But being a little guy, he avoided scrapes with bigger opponents.
Certainly, small caliber handguns have been used with deadly effect for many years. But not unlike that big bear, a bad guy hopped up on drugs, can be very difficult to stop with small calibers - as has been reported over the years by various law enforcement agencies.
I recall a Youtube video of a former SAS soldier giving advice on proper handling of a 9mm semi-automatic pistol. His advice was to always double-tap because a single hit with the small 9mm bullet doesn't always get the bad guy's attention; whereas 2 hits or more should do the trick in stopping them. Now, I realize that is internet info and maybe worth what ai paid for it. However if a former SAS soldier has reservations about the stopping power of a 9mm bullet, what is the problem with carrying something larger?

I don't think there is so much an obsession with Americans using large calibers for self-defense. I think that anyone who is serious about the topic looks to the information and experiences of the various law enforcement agencies. There is a trend now to carry the same types of weapons and ammo used by them. A lot of attention is paid to bullets that will stop an attacker while minimizing risk to others ,due to over-penetration.
I think most of the people who have tried CCW with a 6" S&W Model 29 soon figured out that the gun is heavy and uncomfortable - I tried it a few times myself. (Dirty Harry only had to carry his for the short time it took to shoot the scenes). While not quite enough for a large, angry bear (at least in my opinion) - it probably is not needed for a trip to the grocery store. However, as always, it is a matter of personal choice and most folks carry what they have available.
 
#28 · (Edited)
He says we are in love with over-kill and that Englishmen simply want something that will do the job without a lot of fuss. Kinda like James Bond I guess, after all 007 used .25 acp .32 acp and .380 acp and no one beat him.
Maybe he should stop using a fictional Hollywood movie to base his information of firearms off of. :)


Besides that it is simply a matter of mentality and culture.

In many places (not all but many) in the world including Europe civilians are limited in their caliber selection. In many places the civilian populace cannot carry "military" sized calibers and thus they are limited to smaller ammo cartridges such as .380 or .38spl.

Europe in particular has been using smaller higher velocity cartridges for a loooooooong time.So that also may play into their mentality.
 
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