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Hello,
I have been researching the purchase of a .357 hammerlesss revolver for my wife. Moreover, the information seems very disturbing:
A. Reports of poor customer service at Ruger.
B. Ruger triggers are not good.
C. Chuck Hawkes is totally against S&W. He indicates the managment has turned over to much for smooth operations and QC issues galore.
D. Taurus gets bad press everywhere you look; likewise, wth Chatrer Arms.
How can you get a quality product for your $?
thank you for your time:feedback:
 

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D. Taurus gets bad press everywhere you look
Where is this. I can't recall any Taurus Owners or threads where they are talking crap about their guns; I can tell you about the many posts I have read where someone has heard or read about a bad Taurus experience.
 

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I can tell you that two out of the three dealers that I do business with will not carry Taurus handguns. They cite QC problems and trouble with Taurus customer service. That is not hearsay to me, as the shop owners themselves told me that.

Frankly, I can't imagine wanting a .357 snubbie...too much recoil for too small a package...just my opinion.
 

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Why get a .357 then? It used to be that the .38 snubby was the gun to carry to get the most power out of the smallest package. And there are lots of good used Smiths from the days before they started putting locks on them. They're getting pricey, but they're nice.

Now we have mini-9's and mini-.45's and .357 snubbies...how small can we get with how high a caliber? There was a thread about .38 snubbies, and one member said that the .38 snubby is one of the hardest guns to shoot accurately. I agree. I was shooting one the other day, it had the small wooden grips, and it was punishing my thumb.

I understand the idea of having a good stopper in a package that you can carry...but something has got to give somewhere in the size/recoil/stopping power mix. I don't make the rules, so I can't say where the mix gets jumbled. But a .38 snubby with standard loads is more than enough for me. Truth be told, I'm looking at a Beretta in .32 for CC.
 

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They cite QC problems and trouble with Taurus customer service. That is not hearsay to me, as the shop owners themselves told me that.
Like I said, something someone heard or read somewhere and not experienced firsthand!

But that IS hearsay.
 

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Well, when dealers that I have been going to for years tells me that they have first hand problems, it is not hearsay to me, as I am getting it from the source. It is hearsay to you, as you are not getting it from the first source, which is the dealer that has to send this stuff back to Brazil. I do not mind if you do not take the dealer's/my word for it. Really, I don't. Some members have had contradicting postings on this site. That leads me to believe that there are QC problems in Brazil.

I was not impressed by the gummy actions on the revolvers that I handled, which led me to ask the dealers that I generally use. I also went to handgunreview . com and there were wildly different reviews for the Taurus line. I do not know who the authors were, but based on all the evidence that I could find...no Taurus for Triggerjerk!

If you go to the Taurus section under the Manufacturers threads, there is a post about barrel cracks. Read post # 8 in that thread by Mooseman. That seems like a first hand account to me. Others in the same thread swear by their Taurus revolvers. I keep hearing these contradictory reviews. That does not make me want to buy a Taurus. When I go to handgunreview, people overwhelmingly swear by Smiths, Glocks, Berettas, Rugers and some others. They have earned good reputations. How many US police forces carry Taurus handguns? They carry other foreign brands like Glock.
 

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Dealers don't send Taurus pistols to Brazil for service because to do so they would need to EXPORT them and that requires a crap load of paperwork and expense. If they told you that then I know they are full of it. Taurus has a service center in Florida I believe.

Perhaps those dealers are telling you whatever they need to in order to convince you to buy a $1000 kimber or $600 Smith versus a $400 Taurus.

And that is hearsay since you have not experienced the problems first hand; please read the following: Hearsay Rule and Exceptions

I am sure there are problems out there for some people. I recall a thread a while back about an $1100 Kimber looking like $h!t from the manufacturer. Does this give me any expertise on making recomendations on this firearm saying they are crap and someone shouldn't buy one because I read so and so's thread about his experience?

Look at HIGH POINT firearms. I wouldn't be caught dead owning one, they are crude, bulky, have loose parts and use plastic where I think they should use metal. But every post on here I read from the actual owners have nothing to say but great things about them.

Why did you not just post your experiences about them; the gummy action? You can post what you read as I heard or read, but don't swear by something you can't prove.
 

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Well fellow shooter, not being in a court of law, and not knowing what kind of evidence you would accept, except me buying a Taurus, having it break, and sending you the parts, I will continue to avoid them. The one dealer that does carry their snubbies because Smiths are so expensive tells his customers (I was looking at them) that they are responsible for all warranty work, and if it breaks he doesn't want to hear about it. They're right next to the Smiths and Rugers in his case. Not a sterling endorsement. Still, anybody reading my opinion of the Taurus line is certainly welcome to go buy one. Doesn't hurt Triggerjerk one bit. I have Rugers and a Beretta. As ridiculous as it may sound, I will listen to all these second hand accounts when buying decisions are made. Not to mention that I was not impressed by the gummy action and bought a less expensive used Beretta over the new Taurus. So if my dealer was trying to fleece me, it certainly backfired on him. And please read Mooseman's post. I think that's first hand, and you can probably cross examine him.

And, if the dealer was telling me that he actually handled broken Taurus handguns, and sent them off to Timbuktoo for repair, since he actually handled and shipped them, after seeing the defects, his account to me is first hand. I had a chance to cross examine him. You do not, so it is second hand to you.

Where is this. I can't recall any Taurus Owners or threads where they are talking crap about their guns;
Go to the Taurus thread that I mentioned, right here on Gun and Game...
 

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How about a Dan Wesson ?
I heard from this guy who read on a website they are crap; I wouldn't buy one! J/K
As ridiculous as it may sound, I will listen to all these second hand accounts when buying decisions are made. Not to mention that I was not impressed by the gummy action and bought a less expensive used Beretta over the new Taurus.
And thus you should, I never said that one shouldn't. All I stated is that of all the Taurus's are crap threads I have read, Nearly all are from people who have never owned one. And then you came along and proved my point.

In the thread about Taurus bbls cracking I read far more positive reviews about them than negative. I even read how someone said the Smith's had problems with bbls cracking. All gun manufacturers have problems.
 

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Well, I guess I will wade into the middle of this mess. No Hersey here - I owned a Taurus snubbie in 38 special. I liked it. I paid $200 for it - used of course. Would I rather have had a S&W? You bet! But, for the money they are good revolvers. I have had first hand bad experiences with Taurus semi-auto's. I have handled (not shot) some of the cheaper revolvers and was not impressed.

I typically respect Chuck Hawk's opinion, but if he thinks S&W makes a bad revolver, I think he is wrong. I think they are still the best out there. Many people (maybe Chuck) are still mad at Smith and Wesson for selling out to the anti-gun lobby in the Bill Clinton days. It is my understanding that group no longer owns or manages Smith.

In summary, I would feel comfortable giving my wife either a S&W or Taurus snubbie. Of course my wife is a mean red head that took one of my Glocks for her carry gun. Not saying that I recommend a Glock for your wife, because I wouldn't - each situation is different of course.

Don't believe half of what you read. Some people think there "brand" of gun is the only brand that will shoot. So, to make themselves seem superior and all-knowing, they trash their guns main competitor.

Did I mention that if you had the money - buy a S&W!
 

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Over 30 years of Gunsmithing experience tells me Not to Own a Taurus or rely on it in an Emergency. Internal Machining and parts fit were terrible, Causing several brand new .357's to lock up and become useless after less than 1/2 Box of shells. Autos that have the sights fall off, parts breaking, poor machining...I won't own one.
I have never had a single problem with a Ruger myself, and only minor problems with other peoples, but nothing Catastrophic and Rugers Customer service is Top Notch !
I carry a Redhawk .44 for Grizzly Bears...It dam well better work for me, lol.
Rich
 

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Accurate, controlable, powerful, and easily concealed. I don't care what Chuck Hawks says. He's being foolish with that statement. Just look back at how bad off Smith & Wesson was when that idiot Ed Shultz was in charge, and they were owned by Tompkins PLC. Was that better? Then, just when you think things couldn't get any worse, they got into bed with the Clinton Administration with that idiotic, stupid "agreement". Since Safe-T-Hammer bought them, they have turned things around remarkably. Many new firearms were introduced, none the least of which is both the .460 and .500 S&W Magnum revolvers in every barrel length and configuration imaginable. A totally new line of polymer autos, and even an AR-15 type rifle in many configurations as well. All of these guns have gotten great reviews in most all publications they were tested in from a quality and performance standpoint. Bottom line, Smith & Wesson has never been better, and Chuck Hawks doesn't know what he is talking about. Bill T.
 

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Which

lastchancebaby: Sir; I believe:) the thread got a little off subject:bigeyes:
Tools are a subjective matter; how xyz works the manufacturing, distribution, and preference NOT to leave out merchandising/advertising.
Of the few mentioned [Taurus] I personally know the least about.
Rugers I own several: Triggers? Modern day lawyer'iesd: All fell prey.
SW I own several: Triggers? same as Ruger
Glock I own several: Triggers?
Kahar Friend owns Trigger?
XD Friend owns I like the trigger out of the box.
What I see is a pattern. Modern Triggers need owner's attention. Can they be "fixed' responsibly?
Yes. Should this responsible fix be done?
Be your own judge.
My experiences with Ruger, SW, Marlin, Remington. Outstanding.
These Folks want, and need your business
Most will bend over backwards to help, or at least lead you through "process".
Will I/you/we need to defend our particular fire arm Manuf. representations. I think not.
The inter-net has a direct pipe-line; Manufacturers are well aware; 'HOW' fast is someone to belittle the what-evers.
Sir; as I stated; My experiences with Taurus nonexistent. Pipe line 'internet' isn't very glowing.
Should you choose a Ruger: trigger can be fixed
Should you choose a SW: trigger can be fixed
Should you choose a Kahar: trigger can be fixed
Should you choose a Glock trigger can be fixed
How do I know? I did it.
Will I defend the manufacture of any of mine?
No. I'll call them, and get it straightened out.

Now what to choose for the Miss'es.
Ruger SP101 or the GP100
Sir; I rather have said; LOAD the Miss'ess into the Car/Truck/Motorcycle take her to the store and pick/range shoot/fondle/ feel/color/size
What she thinks she may like.
Instead; a diatribe of thought/experiences

Good luck to you and the miss'es
post what you find.
Thanks for making me think; Craig
 

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Tradehawker LLC / www.tradehawker.com / Jn 17:17
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Accurate, controlable, powerful, and easily concealed. I don't care what Chuck Hawks says. He's being foolish with that statement. Just look back at how bad off Smith & Wesson was when that idiot Ed Shultz was in charge, and they were owned by Tompkins PLC. Was that better? Then, just when you think things couldn't get any worse, they got into bed with the Clinton Administration with that idiotic, stupid "agreement". Since Safe-T-Hammer bought them, they have turned things around remarkably. Many new firearms were introduced, none the least of which is both the .460 and .500 S&W Magnum revolvers in every barrel length and configuration imaginable. A totally new line of polymer autos, and even an AR-15 type rifle in many configurations as well. All of these guns have gotten great reviews in most all publications they were tested in from a quality and performance standpoint. Bottom line, Smith & Wesson has never been better, and Chuck Hawks doesn't know what he is talking about. Bill T.
I have to disagree. S&W has had a lot of problems with their new internal lock on their revolvers, especially on the light scandium/titanium models. The S&W Administration denies this. You must remember that S&W was bought by Saf-T-Hammer out of Arizona. They were building internal locks for firearms before they bought S&W. The only article written in a major publication touting the success of this locking system was Charles Petty in American Handgunner a little over 2 years ago. Three months prior to Petty's article, Massad Ayoob wrote IN THE SAME MAGAZINE that he had seen firsthand internal lock failures in 3 lightweight S&W revolvers. I trained with Mas back in DEC. of '06 and asked him if there was a problem with the new revolvers and the internal locking system. He said there was but he was impressed with S&W's quality control on the new M&P semi-auto. Karl Sokol of Chestnut Mountain Sports has isolated the problem with the internal locking system after having dozens of S&W "new" revolvers go through his shop. His website is Karl Sokol Chestnut Mountian Sports Gunsmithing Services. He can be contacted at the # found on his website and will be glad to share his research. Chuck Hawks does know what he is talking about. He is a knowledgable guy. I have personally talked to him via telephone several years ago. If he gives advice, it is well researched and has good intentions.

I reccomend a Ruger SP101, get a competent gunsmiith to clean up the action and trigger for you. Some of the older pre-lock S&W 640-1 revolvers are fine choices too.
 

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I reccomend a Ruger SP101, get a competent gunsmiith to clean up the action and trigger for you.
Yes sir, you know what you speak of there ;)

I would look into the SP101, even standard these are excellent guns. Doing what Jesse mentioned makes their appearance match their capabilities.
 

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In every case of sending a Taurus back to the company the customer service was great.I am talking about #,s in the 100,s.For major repairs usually they just replaced them with a new firearm.There is no address to send a firearm to brazil,only Fla..They dont ship them to Brizil,they repair or replace them in Fla.They manufacture new guns in Fla..Everyone has their right to their opinion.It is my opinion that if someone passes up a good deal because a firearm was mfg,d by Taurus,possibly they are letting someone else in on a good deal.Opinions are just that,opinions.Some people believe it is necessary to carry a .300Win.Mag. to hunt hogs.I believe if I have from a .243Win. and smaller I am well armed. Of course I was raised in a time when they used a .22 short,long,or long rifle to kill a 300lb hog or 1000 beef for butchering.Some believe only a .45 or more powerful can serve for self defence,I believe that if I have a .22lr I know well,I am sufficiently armed. I can still remember when Savage and Mossburg were really looked down on as firearms and called cheap.Now they are great.They are mfg.,d the same on the same machines they were then. sam.
 

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Massad Ayoob wrote IN THE SAME MAGAZINE that he had seen firsthand internal lock failures in 3 lightweight S&W revolvers.
3 out of how many? What is S&W's lock "failure rate" compared to other manufacturers that have much the same feature on their guns? I will freely admit that I have not bought a new S&W since the lock became standard. That said, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one because of it. Sooner or later your going to have this on all firearms, like it or not. I chose a Magnum Research BFR in .500 Magnum over a Smith & Wesson simply because I could not see any advantage to a double action .500. I am considering the 4" .500, and the lock issue will be a non issue for me if I do decide to purchase it. Bill T.

Another thing I would mention. There is a way around all of this "warranty work" and "customer service" issues with all of these gun companies. Simply buy you're gun on line thru Davidsons, and your local dealer. Gallery of Guns.com - Gun Gallery, Ruger Firearms, Shooter Online Services, Firearm Industry News, Firearm Dealer, Gun News Every gun you purchase from them comes with a LIFETIME FREE REPLACMENT WARRANTY. No other distributor in this country offers this. They will ship direct to a local dealer of your choice in 3 days or less. I have used their warranty and it is simply the best. Some months back I bought a Ruger Mark II .22 Auto Pistol. On it's first trip to the range it broke after about 80 rounds. The trigger wouldn't reset. I called my dealer and he told me to bring it in along with all the paperwork. When I got there he had already called Davidsons and said they were already sending a new one out. I had a brand new gun in my hands the very next day! If I had purchased that gun anywhere else it would have been shipped back to the factory, and I would have had to wait weeks for what would have been at best a repaired firearm. Davidsons is the first place I look when I buy ANY new firearm. It's just foolish to do otherwise. Bill T.
 

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Tradehawker LLC / www.tradehawker.com / Jn 17:17
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3 out of how many? What is S&W's lock "failure rate" compared to other manufacturers that have much the same feature on their guns? I will freely admit that I have not bought a new S&W since the lock became standard. That said, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one because of it. Sooner or later your going to have this on all firearms, like it or not. I chose a Magnum Research BFR in .500 Magnum over a Smith & Wesson simply because I could not see any advantage to a double action .500. I am considering the 4" .500, and the lock issue will be a non issue for me if I do decide to purchase it. Bill T.
Another thing I would mention. There is a way around all of this "warranty work" and "customer service" issues with all of these gun companies. Simply buy you're gun on line thru Davidsons, and your local dealer. Gallery of Guns.com - Gun Gallery, Ruger Firearms, Shooter Online Services, Firearm Industry News, Firearm Dealer, Gun News Every gun you purchase from them comes with a LIFETIME FREE REPLACMENT WARRANTY. No other distributor in this country offers this. They will ship direct to a local dealer of your choice in 3 days or less. I have used their warranty and it is simply the best. Some months back I bought a Ruger Mark II .22 Auto Pistol. On it's first trip to the range it broke after about 80 rounds. The trigger wouldn't reset. I called my dealer and he told me to bring it in along with all the paperwork. When I got there he had already called Davidsons and said they were already sending a new one out. I had a brand new gun in my hands the very next day! If I had purchased that gun anywhere else it would have been shipped back to the factory, and I would have had to wait weeks for what would have been at best a repaired firearm. Davidsons is the first place I look when I buy ANY new firearm. It's just foolish to do otherwise. Bill T.

Other manufacturers have adopted different internal lock designs that do not seem to have the design flaws inherent in the new S&W internal revolver lock. I was skeptical when I first heard internet posts cursing this design and marked it down as resistance to change and internet rumor. My opinion changed when the NC Dept. of Corrections bought over 2,000 new revolvers from S&W, trading in all of their older revolvers for newer revolvers with the internal lock system. This was in 2003-2004. Over the next 2 years they had documented failures in the purchased revolvers during range qualifications. These failures were in the form of internal lock malfunctions and barrels breaking off at the forcing cone. S&W offered to replace all of the purchased revolvers with S&W M&P .40 cal. semiautos at an even swap to avoid litigation. I know people who have bought the newer S&W revolvers and love them, carry them, and swear by them. I am not one of these people. S&W has now offered the new model 40 revolver with an OPTIONAL internal lock.

I agree that Davidsons has as fine a guarantee for stocking dealers one can find. The trick is finding a dealer that buys from Davidsons. Some dealers are funny about their suppliers. I have found this out the hard way.I know Chris's father has done some good business with them over the years.

NC Wants Smith & Wesson to Replace Faulty Revolvers
Here's the link... it looks like S&W had to supply around 5,000 firearms total in the agreement.
 
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