CMP International Harvester Garands available

Discussion in 'M1 Garand' started by Mosinnewbe, May 30, 2014.

  1. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    The CMP forum has been buzzin' today. Folks are already getting notified that they're back ordered. I guess since I haven't gotten a DBU notification, I'm SOL. [sad face]

    Some folks already have their rifles shipped!

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  2. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    Maybe there is still hope. I got what I assume is my DBU notification. I've never bought from the CMP via mail. Not sure this means I'm in or it is still a maybe. It is quite a rollercoaster of emotion: hopeful...hopes dashed...hopes back up.

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  3. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    A DBU email is not a gaurantee that you will get a rifle this go round . The worst would be you will be in line for the next release later in the year.
    If you havent already sign up for a E-Store account and you can track your order there
     
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  4. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    First off I am comparing apples to apples. Sure the Washington Red Delicious is a better apple, but if I can get a huge bag of the Autumn Golds for the price of one Red Delicious, which will I choose?
    Do you consider a Canadien Enfield a cheap rifle? Cause I can own three of those for the price of one Garand. Heck I can own two Swiss Vetterli match rifles for that. I can own an Austrian Steyr Olympic match rifle for that.

    From the CMP website:
    "The CMP was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military."
    And, "The vision of the Civilian Marksmanship Program is that every youth in America has the opportunity to participate in firearms safety and marksmanship programs."

    How many children do you know that get a $1,000 rifle for their first gun? Most of us got hand-me-downs or old surplus rifles. When the CMP was started, if you look at their ads, their rifles were being sold cheaper than similar rifles. The whole point was to sell surplus in order to get the public familiar with the weapons. The general public can't get familiar with these guns at these prices. Not when other, new, semi autos are much cheaper.

    Nowhere in my underpants is there a sign telling me where to put my legs, but simple logic tells me how to put them on. Logically if the CMP's mission is to promote shooting, and get these rifles into as many hands as possible, they would sell them at surplus prices.
    Just as they did the first 80 years of the program and its predecessors.

    As for the charter you are reading, that is actually the charter from 1996 for (Title 36 U. S. Code, 0701-40733) which created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety, Inc. , the formal name of the current CMP.

    The earliest CMP was the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice. In 1903 Roosevelt founded the NBPRP which authorized the sale, at "government cost" '...of surplus U.S. rifles and ammunition..."

    As I said in my original post, $1000 for a rifle that up until 1996 was available "at government cost" is ridiculous.

    Respectfully, sir, you have no idea what you are talking about from either a factual, historical nor logical standpoint, unless you believe the history of WWII rifles began in 1996.
     
  5. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    Uh, how many little Jonnies and Susies do you think are shooting Garands?
    Have you ever been to Camp Perry Matches and seen what rifles youth are using??? For the most part they are 22 rimfires Air Rifles and some AR-15s .Have you seen the new inside Air Rifle building? New ranges buing built in Anniston?

    Again, the SALES OF RIFLES AMMO ETC is what feeds the Charter of CMP
    CMP is not here to sell you rifles and ammo cheaply, even though they actually are under what they sell for on the open market. Just try and buy Garands for less than what CMP sells them for. You will have to look a long time to find a better deal. Mixmaster IHC's sell for hundreds more than $975 which CMP is selling them for
    CMP is not run by the Govt but is a private organization.
     
  6. Frankly they could sell their rifles for $1200 a piece and people would still line up to buy them. IMO the CMP suppresses the costs of buying Garands. Pull out a Garand at the firing range and people crowd around and want to talk about it. It's like the celebrity of guns. Someday they will seem like a raging bargain at the costs they are going for today.
     
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  7. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    This is actually direct from CMP's website

    "The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) is a national organization dedicated to training and educating U. S. citizens in responsible uses of firearms and airguns through gun safety training, marksmanship training and competitions. The CMP is a federally chartered 501(c)(3) corporation that places its highest priority on serving youth through gun safety and marksmanship activities that encourage personal growth and build life skills. Links on this page will lead you to more detailed information about the CMP and its programs.
    Statutory mission. The federal law enacted in 1996 (Title 36 U. S. Code, 40701-40733) that created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety, Inc. (CPRPFS, the formal legal name of the CMP) mandates these key “functions for the corporation:

    (1) To instruct citizens of the United States in marksmanship;

    (2) To promote practice and safety in the use of firearms;

    (3) To conduct competitions in the use of firearms and to award trophies, prizes, badges, and other insignia to competitors.


    The law specifically states: In carrying out the Civilian Marksmanship Program, the corporation shall give priority to activities that benefit firearms safety, training, and competition for youth and that reach as many youth participants as possible."



    Again, nowhere does it say anything about selling Garands at cost. Its all about generating revenue through the sales of rifles ammo etc to fund the above
     
  8. gandog56

    gandog56 G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    I wonder why CMP keeps sending notices they have rifles ready, and almost immediately say we are taking no new orders a couple days later.
     
  9. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    Its simple they sell out quickly becuase of mass orders
     
  10. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    Of course kids aren't shooting Garands now, no one in their right mind would give little Johnnie a $1,000 rifle for his first gun. My dad's first non-.22 was a Garand when he was about 10 years old in 1955. His dad got it off a guy for $20. My first rifle that was mine, and mine alone, was an SKS. Affordable surplus rifles should be a right of passage, not a down payment on a car.

    Selling surplus to familiarize the public with these guns WAS the CMPs job until 1996. They did this by selling the guns AT COST - not at a market price which they set. If you do not believe so, look up the history. Maybe none of the rest of you remember the uproar when Clinton screwed up the CMP, but those of us living down the road from Anniston do. Maybe you guys just love Clinton, I don't know.

    Of course the CMPs prices are cheaper than the open market, they control the supply so they can set the price. Everyone else has to sell above that to make a profit.

    If you can name a single other military surplus item that this country sells 25 times higher than what they paid for it I will agree with you that what they are doing is fair.

    EVERY other surplus item I can think of is cheaper. Heck we sell tanks and planes for 1/10th of what we bought them for, to governments that hate us, but we can't get a parts gun from a government sponsored program for less than the monthly rent on a small apartment?

    I can buy a crate of packs or duffel bags, sell the packs at $5 to $10 a pack, and still make a profit, if you don't believe that visit literally any flea market in the South.

    You may think I'm wrong, but I promise you if you look into the history of it, or think about it from the standpoint of literally ANY other surplus item you will either begin to see it differently.

    You can make the "cheap junk" argument about the Mosins, but when you take what the Soviet government originally paid for them, versus what we originally paid for the Garand, then add in all the import fees and shipping added to the Mosin, plus the dealer markups, you will find that even with all that added we are still generally only paying a markup of 15.75 times the original cost of the rifle.

    The Garand, without the import fees, tariffs, international freight, etc, still has, inarguably a 25 times markup from the original price paid by our government.
     
  11. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    #1 CMP was not around before 1996, it was DCM
    Never once did I say they didnt make a profit.
    If you really cared about CMP and what they do for shooting sports you would want to see them get top dollar for every rifle they sell.
    The more revenue generated the more they can do to promote shooting sports with the emphasis towards youth
    Sell them all today and shut the doors, eliminate payrolls, insurance, rent, utility bills etc, etc and get down to what they were created for
     
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  12. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    UPDATE: My order hit the estore first thing this morning for an IHC M1 with LMR barrel and case.

    So in order of progression: Order sent USPS guaranteed next day 05/30. Order received 06/02. DBU email received 06/06. Order on estore 06/18.

    It is funny. I've been lurking on the CMP forum for the last couple of weeks where they're all acting like little boys a few weeks before Christmas over these IHC rifles.



    I wonder how many orders they received for three hundred some odd rifles.

    There is a lot of great grand info over there. In two weeks of lurking, I've learned:

    That my buddy's HRA with an LMR barrel, came that way.

    That many IHCs were built with SA barrels.

    How to tell an original IHC stock.

    And lots of other great M1 trivia.

    So like a hand full of others, today I am doing the 'little boy before Christmas dance!'


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  13. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    Say what you want about the CMP, but I can't think of another industry you guys would praise for putting a 2500% markup on their product, even if they do provide other services and training at little or no charge. Again, this markup is in comparison with say, surplus canteens, or shovels, or tents, or uniforms - literally any other military surplus product.

    We've heard these stories for years: http://www.scragged.com/articles/yes-virginia-a-298-hammer-really-costs-our-government-100
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ardg6DwCCMFI&refer=home
    http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=96;t=000012;p=0

    And these same stories cover literally every item the government procures. Sure there are explanations for how the large figures are arrived at, but theoretically that would apply to rifles as well. Yet when the government surpluses any of those items, they do it on the cheap.

    We bought a huge box of standard round-nose and flat-nose shovels as surplus and used them for a construction job. It was a union job and we knew most of the shovels would walk away before it was over anyway. Except for the OD paint scheme they were exactly like those found at every hardware store in the country. We got them for around $3.00 a piece. Even without the crazy accounting, I'm sure these shovels cost way more than $3 a piece.

    Even back then a new shovel was around $15 on the civilian market. By yours, and the CMPs logic, we should have willingly spent a minimum of $375 on each of those shovels. Then we should have convinced our friends that they were a great bargain, even if the shovels had cracked broom handles and pitted replacement heads from a long-defunct company that made bumpers.

    Back in the distant '90s, when I was still in high school, but prior to the CMP, Shotgun News advertised Garands for as little as $115, which accounting for inflation, made sense for a rifle that cost around $40 new.

    If we only calculate for inflation, a NEW Garand should only cost $601.41, and a used parts gun should be considerably less.

    Lets calculate for inflation on a Mosin procured in 1942. It SHOULD be a $451.06 rifle new and unfired. That means that those rifles are on target as far as a used surplus price.

    If we do the same for a Lee-Enfield No4 we come up with an inflation value of $438.28. These rifles can still be found $500 range or less. The No. 4 is still the issue rifle for Canadian Artic reserve troops, and the MKIII is still issued to rear echelon regular troops in India and Pakistan, among others.


    There is no argument you can make for why a used parts gun Garand should cost twice as much as my unissued Long Branch, or five times the cost of a matching-parts Mosin. The argument gets even crazier when you realize in 1942, each of these rifles were within $10 of each other's cost.

    Actual costs of production in 1942 versus current selling price:
    Garand: 25 times markup for mixmaster "Excellent" through CMP
    Enfield: 16.67 times markup for an excellent all parts matching one per Gunbroker
    Mosin: 6.3 times markup for all-parts matching Very Good per J&G

    If you want to talk about all they do to promote shooting, check out the Appleseed project from Fred's. Fred sells his "Excellent" M-14 stocks in the $54 range, as opposed to CMP who sells their new production M1 stocks, unfinished, for $118.95.
    Only one of those companies receives any government support.

    Also, the CMP is apparently unaware that there was no CMP program before 1996 "From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. Title XVI of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (Public Law 104-106, 10 February 1996) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP."

    The CPRPFS, and the rules, intentions and costs are the only things that changed in 1996 - again, under the Clinton administration. The CMP was so much better before that.

    Again, Roosevelt stated that the CMP's original intention was to provide weapons "at cost" so that the citizenry could become familiar with these rifles.
     
  14. mack310

    mack310 G&G Regular

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    What makes Garands from CMP so expensive is really very simple....they quit making these in 1957 and will never make anymore, anywhere in the world under any conditions. I can always buy shovels (not really a comparison by any measure) and no one will ever doubt that scarcity makes prices increase. God only knows how many Mosins were made but there may be untold millions more of these. Even if they were similar (they are NOT remotely similar), American made steel will always command a higher price with Americans as weapons from other countries will likely bring higher prices. Scarcity sets the price, nothing more or less. IHC was the smallest total number of manufactured, so prices are higher.

    From a historical perspective, Enfields will have a similar price-to-cost ratio as a Garand. When I started buying Enfields in 1962, I purchased an Enfield for $12.99. Garands at that time were $109.99 at K-Mart and you could select between Springfield and Winchester for that price. IHC wasn't available then either. Scarcity costs in the fewest words.
     
  15. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    Okay, phd. Your opinion of the CMP is noted. And although, I don't agree with your opinion, you have every right to think what you will.

    But, do you really need to keep hijacking my IHC thread to thrash this expired equus once more?

    I am really excited about the opportunity to get an IHC and the intention of this thread was to discuss it with other like minded folks not to provide a pulpit for someone's pet peeve against the CMP.

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  16. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    Cant wait to see you IHC.
    Ignore the troll with nothing but incorrect info
     
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  17. mack310

    mack310 G&G Regular

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    Joker, very sorry for stepping on your good news. Congrats on that upcoming CMP rifle. I look forward to seeing your new rifle and hope it is a great one. I own one IHC and it is neat to have a "Tractor Gun." They are a little different which lends something special to them. It's fun to remember searching for IHC parts and using expert opinion on forums about which parts would make it arsenal correct. Good luck with yours.
     
  18. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    No worries, Mack. It depends on what I get. All the other M1s I own are shooters and mixmasters. I have one foot solidly in the camp of "correct" is how they camp out of their last arsenal refurbishing. With the exception that if they look prettier in a nice stock, there's no harm/no foul in swapping stocks as long as I hold onto the old one.

    I am looking forward to the IHC getting shipped where it will be "back home again in Indiana".

    Another interesting piece of trivia I learned this week: The building these IHC rifles were made was used to build P-47 Thunderbolts in WWII. How cool is that?

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  19. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    I honestly didn't mean to hijack this thread. You can look at my other posts and see that is not me, I was just expressing confusion as to why the CMP so royally screws collectors.
    Nor was my response meant to belittle the very cool IHC Garand, though this one is mostly non-original parts.

    The IHC is inarguably a rare Garand, They were produced, in part, just a few miles from where I am sitting. I would love to have one, and I am glad for anyone that does.

    My statement was based on CMPs stranglehold of the Garand market in general.

    This ignorance can not be ignored, however if it is aimed at me.

    Name one piece of incorrect info I have given. Or were you talking about someone else, because several others have posted erroneous information, which I have tried to correct.

    A "regular" Garand, is NOT rare enough to warrant the prices asked for them. Adjusted for inflation, the 1903 cost MORE than the Garand to produce, as did the Krag. And the M1917, and Remington Mosins were also American-made and were, again, within $10 of meeting the price asked for the Garand. So it would seem the "American Steel" or "American Military" arguments fall apart under their own weight when exposed to simple facts.
    There are essentially two differences between these rifles and the Garand:
    1.) the current CMP is in charge of the supply and has kept prices artificially high, and
    2.) it is semi-auto.

    Only +/-70,000 Johnson Rifles were produced, and mixmasters of those have been sold on Gunbroker recently for as little as $2,500, and Birmingham Pistol Wholesale has a pristine one in the $5000 range. This one (http://www.gunsinternational.com/Jo...0-06-WINFIELD-CONVERSION.cfm?gun_id=100440122) can be yours for under $4,000 right now.

    For the "rare, not making them anymore, American military weapon" argument to hold any truth, that would mean that the Garand was only five times less rare than the Johnson, when in fact at least 8,229,471 Garands were produced.
    There were then, and still are, roughly 100 times the number of Garands as Johnsons.
    If you are going to use the rarity argument for what CMP does, then you should realize that logically, and mathematically, for that argument to make sense, regular Garands should cost 1/100th of the price of a Johnson.

    There were also far less Browning Automatic Rifles produced than Garands, but again, since CMP does not have their hand in it semi auto versions can be had fairly cheap. In fact, even factoring in civilian sales not more than a few hundred thousand were produced. This is a rifle that saw service in four American wars, and still can be found for around $1,000.

    Again, tell me a single fact I have been wrong on, and then try to justify what this organization does.
     
  20. TheJoker

    TheJoker G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    ARGH!!!

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