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Concealed Carry and "Mental Illness"

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by ninjatoth, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth G&G Newbie

    Under Michigan law,there is nothing that stops a person with a mental illness from purchasing handguns.If they have been involuntarily committed to an institution etc,then they can't buy handguns.Well,I have a mental illness and have legally bought a handgun,but under Michigan law,a person "must not have a mental illness at the time the application was made" to get a concealed pistol permit.Might I mention my mental illness-it's OCD(obsessive compulsive disorder).I am still in the process of asking around and writing to the state police asking questions,haven't heard back yet,but in you guys' opinion,should I not be carrying a gun while having OCD?Do you think I am a risk?Michigan does.

  2. G. Green

    G. Green G&G Newbie

    I'm not a medical pro, but from what I know about OCD I don't see it as a legit disqualifier. Is there a list of disqualifying ailments? Seems to me that a lot of returning soldiers and some LEOs have been treated for depression (and rightly so). Should they be disqualified? Sounds to me like the mental health pros weren't consulted or had an agenda of their own.
  3. GlockMeister

    GlockMeister G&G Evangelist

    Confirm this with a lawyer, but unless you've been adjudicated mentally defective or retarded in front of and or by a judge, you have anything to worry about. Nothing needs to be mentioned. But DO NOT listen to me. I only say this because someone asked me to find some information out for them in regards to them getting their FOID card and that is what I was told. And I was told that by someone at the NRA in the NRA-ILA division.

    And if or when you call a lawyer, call one that deals with and handles gun law/s...You could, like I did, even call the NRA or NRA-ILA?

    The end result to my inquiry for a buddy was basically unless a judge said you are/were and slammed that gavel, you didn't have to worry about anything. My buddy filled out the Illinois FOID card application, enclosed the required picture and check and sent it in. He got gis FOID card about 2 months later.

    The only other time you have to worry about the "mental" aspect is if you were court ordered or even voluntarily stayed over night in a mental ward/hospital. I think it was over night? Might have been more then 24 hours?

    Again, don't listen to me or take my word for any of this. The disclaimer at the very top of this thread says it all...

    Don't write to ANYONE!. TALK TO A LAWYER WHO PRACTICES IN GUN LAW/S. You write to the state police they'll tag your name and make a problem for you that may not yet exist. I hope for your sake you haven't yet licked and sealed the envelope, put the stamp on it and put it in the mail???

    And FWIW, G.Green, those returning soldiers you mentioned, have been, have had and are having their rights taken away from them simply because or if they were diagnosed with PTSD. Because the "brainiacs" feel they "might" lose it and like everything else, better safe and to be wrong then sorry and be right and not do anything about it until it's too late.

    I know the NRA was fighting this issue regarding soldiers. I thought they got their rights back for them?
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2009
  4. G. Green

    G. Green G&G Newbie

    Excellent post GlockMeister!
    I had no idea our soldiers were dealing with that issue. Seems like 'piling on" for a guy to have to deal with PTSD and knee jerk bs at the same time.
  5. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth G&G Newbie

    Voluntary commitment to a mental hospital will not hinder getting a handgun or concealed pistol license here.Involuntary commitment by a judge WILL prohibit purchase and a concealed pistol license.My main confusion and complaint is that the rules don't line up right.Why can I purchase a handgun and open carry it legally,but can't get a CCW?
  6. G. Green

    G. Green G&G Newbie


    You're trying to make sense of your state law on the issue. That's a no win proposition.
  7. danf6975

    danf6975 G&G Newbie

    i just asked a law professor and he said any state licensed person that fills the role can do this . it does not have to be in by or near a judge. they must be 2 things to do it . board certified doctor and state certified to practice in the state where making the diagnosis
  8. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth G&G Newbie

    I'm not at all concerned about me being judged as insane or something,since here in Michigan,you must pass a background check and get a pistol permit at the police station just to buy a handgun,which I have already done.I have nothing on my record that prevents me from gun ownership,so it's kind of a unique thing to michigan to change the laws on the concealed pistol requirements to not match up with the pistol permit holders requirements.
  9. danf6975

    danf6975 G&G Newbie

    well hell if you live near grand rapids you are probably crazy =)
    ( that was a joke btw)
  10. Archetype_wyo

    Archetype_wyo G&G Enthusiast

    So long as you're not a waterhead/spastic and not a sociopath I don't see why not. =)
  11. Roper1911

    Roper1911 G&G Newbie

    OCD is not A debilitating or potently dangerous disorder, so I would say your in the green for getting your CCL. however if you have Hero complex disorder, are a sociopath, have multiple personality disorder, or senile dementia, you would be unable to get your CCL.
  12. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth G&G Newbie

    My official diagnosis is OCD with social anxiety.Not to be confused with anti-social personality.I am very shy around social settings because of my social anxiety is all,and I check the stove alot making sure the gas aint runnin or something,classic OCD stuff.Michigan makes no differential between anxiety disorders and dementia ones,to Michigan mental illness is mental illness from what I understand,so I think if I do pursue a CCW,it will be an uphill battle.
  13. sniper762

    sniper762 G&G Enthusiast

    ninja, if you apply for the permitt and qualify, then you'll know for sure. its the responsibility of the sherrif and sbi to determine your eligebility. dont worry about it. apply and see.
  14. danf6975

    danf6975 G&G Newbie

    this is far more dangerous and i have seen it ruin lives and or careers . seems to be all to common these days ( not insinuating anyone here just a general comment)
  15. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth G&G Newbie

    well,The state police wrote me a reply-

    Mr Toth,

    The decision whether or not to issue you a concealed pistol license will be completely at the discretion of the gun board. So I cannot say definitively whether your condition will disqualify you. Pursuant to MCL 28.425b(1)(d) all applications require " a statement by the applicant regarding whether he or she has a history of mental illness that would disqualify him or her under subsection (7)(j) to (l) from receiving a license to carry a concealed pistol, and authorizing the concealed weapon licensing board to access the mental health records of the applicant relating to his or her mental health history."

    Subsections (7)(j) to (l) state:

    (j) The applicant has not been found guilty but mentally ill of any crime and has not offered a plea of not guilty of, or been acquitted of, any crime by reason of insanity.

    (k) The applicant has never been subject to an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.

    (l) The applicant does not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment for that illness.

    Again, the individual county gun boards are the only ones who can decide whether or not you will be issued a license. You should contact your gun board for further guidance.

    Best Regards,
    Sgt * H******
    Michigan State Police
  16. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth G&G Newbie

  17. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth G&G Newbie

    I amexplaining my circumstance here.

  18. remman

    remman G&G Newbie

    I have OCD too, and if you were taught proper safety, the only affect it should have on you is that you will be even safer...that is definitely not a problem...unless you accidentally shoot someone and it is so bad that you feel you have to shoot two more to complete the pattern...then it's a problem...but i'm gonna go ahead and say that won't be a problem...
  19. Tha Dave

    Tha Dave G&G Evangelist

    I agree Mich. is really messed up. LOL I would say apply, if or when you get denied go before the apeal board and pleed your case, haveing your "Talky-doc" there to speek om your behalf stating or even a letter from him (or her) saying that you are of sound mind and that you are not a threat to others or your self wouldnt hurt anything either.
  20. GlockMeister

    GlockMeister G&G Evangelist

    I still say unless you've been in front of a judge and he you've been adjudicated, I don't or would think you'd have to check the box. The mental illness they're looking for on these forms they have us fill out, and I say these because Illinois has a question that's the same or very similar on the Illinois FOID application. I think there's even one on the form 4473. But they mean the type of mental illness where you are either a harm to yourself or others.

    And dude, look at it this way, if you were, you wouldn't have even been allowed to get and own a gun to begin with...

    And just so you know, it's the 1st definition I'm talking about. So, if you HAVE NOT been in front of a judge and he (or she) HAS NOT judged you mentally ill or mentally defective, then you should have nothing to worry about.

    If you are still concerned, go to a payphone (in case they have caller ID, and call the state police or whomever is in charge of issuing CCW permits in your state and hypothetically ask them or come straight out and simply ask them if a person having OCD would prohibit them from applying and getting their CCW. If they say yes, ask them how. Make sure you get their name. then, go talk to a lawyer who deal in/with gun law/s...

    But if I were you, before calling them, I would call the NRA-ILA and ask them first. Again, ask the anonymously. Don't give them your name. Not because you have something to fear or hide, but because it shouldn't matter...


    ad·ju·di·cate (ə-jōō'dĭ-kāt') v. ad·ju·di·cat·ed, ad·ju·di·cat·ing, ad·ju·di·cates

    1. to pronounce or decree by judicial sentence.

    2. to settle or determine (an issue or dispute) judicially.

    3. to sit in judgment (usually fol. by upon).

    Is it a mental disorder, yes. But if it's one that would prevent you from getting your CCW, then it should be one to also prohibit you from getting and owning a gun legally as well as prevent and or prohibit you from owning or at least driving a car. A car can be just as dangerous as a gun.

    I mean a typical OCD thing is to compulsively wash your hands. With a gun, you could compulsively check if it's unloaded or if it's loaded. If it's holstered or unholstered, cleaned or not cleans.

    Tell me something with a gun and having a CCW and having OCD that would be negative? Seriously, I can't think of anything. And I don't honestly think if you had to shoot someone that your OCD would cause you to put an extra round or two into anyone. Also, as far as I know, most OCD compulsive disorders revolve around cleanliness doesn't it?

    And ninjatoth, I REALLY WISH YOU WOULDN'T HAVE MADE AND POSTED THAT VIDEO TO YOUTUBE. IT CAN VERY WELL NOW IF NEED BE, BE USED AGAINST YOU. I say this because I've heard on the news that even employers are using social network and other things to determine if they hire you or not and some have even lost their jobs for stuff they've had or said. Granted, those are people who had contracts and said or did something they shouldn't have. But had they not aired their business to the world, they'd still have a job.

    So, just so no one can, if I were you, I would delete that youtube video. Anti-gunners could use it and say people with OCD shouldn't even be able to have a gun let alone a CCW license.

    And I think your OCD may be causing you to compulsively dwell on this issue. I think you should just apply. When it comes to the question and if it were me, I know what I'd answer but I can't tell you what to put. Why would I answer it how I would, because a judge has not adjudicated me as mentally defective and because I have never been ordered by a judge to stay in a mental hospital. Anything you do voluntarily is suppose to not be used against you. Suppose to not be... I consider, I personally consider OCD to be a disorder, not a mental illness. Sure, they'll all tell you a disorder is a mental illness.

    But I ask you this --- let's say you compulsively have to walk the house 10 times to make sure you locked all the doors and windows before you go to bed. Is that a safety or a hazard?

    Again, DO NOT take any of what I have said in this post, or any other and I still seriously think you should consult with a lawyer that deals with gun law/s and to please not let it consume you.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2010
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