Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by gun freak, Jul 10, 2002.
is the feg pa 63 worth $100??? :hmmm:
do u know where i can find more info about the pa 63???
Pros: They look good, are light weight, and cheap.
Cons: Poor reliability, tendency to drop magazines when fired, lousy trigger.
The Pa63 is an aluminum framed, modified Walther PP copy in 9mm Makarov. I would greatly recommend a real Makarov over it.
Check the "other pistols" page at makarov.com. It contains information about the PA-63. I've fired several thousand rounds through mine, have never had a malfunction and no magazines ever fell out. The trigger pull is heavy, particularly in double action, but that can be fixed by installing the PP hammer spring. I think it's worth $100.
The PA-63 absolutely REQUIRES a replacement recoil spring and benefits from the Walther PP hammer spring. This makes them every bit as reliable as a mil surp Mak. My father and I own three of these pistols between us, and they have all done very well with the spring upgrades.
If the fix is so simple, wht doesn't FEG just put them in in the first place?
Hey I own a Pa --63 and yes stong recoil. Bad trigger pull especially in double action. Dropping mag --not mine. Reliability--never had a problem with that. Cheap--yes. Good accuracy-- not bad. The single action trigger ain't that bad. Because of the light frame it tends to sting the hand. Thats why I use a glove on my strong hand. Look-- get you one-- you will like it. I promise.
They are cheaper than most minature carry weapons.
Why not a stronger stock spring? Maybe they were stronger 39 years ago. I am not a metallurgist, but I don't think many people are still using 30-40 year old springs in a blowback due to metal fatigue.
These were police pistols in a country with virtually no violent crime or private ownership of firearms. (I am NOT suggesting a correlation, by the way). I am fairly certain that the Hungarian police used other arms as well. In other words, they are good for police use in that context, but not where people are more likely to be shooting back! At the time that the PA-63 was adopted, it was unclear whether Hungary would continue with a national police force along Continental lines, or adopt the "militsia" system of the CCCP. The "militia men" in the Soviet Union were police, but they generally carried rifles, rather than pistols.
FEG does not sell these guns in the US; Century does. Century generally takes a laissez faire approach to quality as many Romarm/Cugir owners know...
I suspect 99% of the â€œ30-40 year oldâ€ blowback pistols still have their original recoil springs - people very seldom replace the springs in their firearms. Nor do the springs in the vast majority of the current production FEG pistols (like the PA 63) need replacement. And (with not offense intended) FEG does indeed sell their pistols here in the US through their US distributors. These distributors have included KBI, InterArms, and Century Arms.
The Pa63s I have seen were all sold as new. I have never seen one 30 years old.
The FEG Pa 63 's are new production.
If you can get one for a hunnerd bucks DO SO!
The ones I have seen had a lot of sharp edges and wherent as "Finnished " as I like. My big fat hands cant hold that lil thing as well as I would like.
It really Boils down to What do YOU like?
What Do YOU want in a Pistol?
as far as the Value of the gun you arent doing to bad.
Remember that the Walther PP design has been personally tested by Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun.....................
In one respect, we are talking at cross purposes. I said FEG doesn't sell their pistols here; Century does. KBI does too. What I meant is that FEG has no direct contact with you, the U.S. consumer. You are dealing with companies that are importing/distributing a LOT of different makes/models. They seem to consider the PA-63 pretty small beer.
There are two "runs" or whatever of the two-tone PA-63s. I accidentally ended up with one of each, and my dad has the older, "better" version. Two of these (the "old model") were marked as surplus by the dealer. I bought the later production one a few months later because it looked brand-new (I found out why). I don't know if the dealer was in fact correct, but he usually limits his mistakes to spelling!
Here is the difference between the two that counts: The older pistols seem to be better made all-around. In particular, the lever on the left side that holds the slide open (I don't have my photocopy manual here) has a slightly different shape and a more solid little spring there (more just a curved piece of metal). On the older guns, when you take the slide off this doesn't all fall apart; it gives me fits on the other one. The photocopy thingy I got from Survival Enterprises identifies the pesky one as a "newer production" PA-63.
Based on the information available to me, I assumed that the two older, better-made guns were actually police pistols. I really couldn't say. The flimsy one is a KBI. The two older ones were imported by Century.
On the other hand, you learn something new every day. I really thought the springs were just worn out on the older ones, since the KBI wasn't as bad (still replaced it too). I thought that this was metal fatigue. I didn't know that you could expect a spring to last that long on a blowback.
One big problem with the stronger spring that I forgot to mention: it makes the slick PA-63 slide much harder to rack.
Thank you for your kind reply
Regarding old springs (and this is offered purely as information, with no criticism or flame intended), the major enemies of springs (and anything made of steel) are use, abuse, and neglect. Every thing will wear out eventually, and give springs enough use and they too will wear out. The use of over-pressure ammunition will accelerate this wear and shorten the service life of a spring, and this is what I mean by the word â€˜abuseâ€™. If a spring is neglected and allowed to rust, this too will shorten its service life.
In the absence of any of these three elements a spring will last virtually forever. I have a number of pocket pistols made before 1930 (and a few made before 1910) that still have their original springs. These springs are essentially like new, because the pistols have been fired little if at all.
That said, there are times it is wise to replace all the springs in an old firearm (and especially a milsurp firearm). If one purchases an old firearm with the intent of shooting it a lot itâ€™s a good idea to replace all he springs to avoid any potential for malfunctions or damage to the firearm due to worn springs. If one purchases an old firearm with the intent to use it for self-defense Iâ€™d strongly recommend replacing all the springs with new springs to avoid the occurrence of a malfunction at the worst possible moment.
In terms of the PA 63, its variations, and its use by the Hungarian military and police, this is frankly a muddle not helped by FEGâ€™s penchant for refurbishing police/military pistols to varying degrees and marketing them under a host of different names. These reworked police/military pistols may be found mixed in with new production intended for the commercial market, so one may find PA 63 pistols made yesterday or in 1963 (when PA 63 production began).
According to Janeâ€™s â€œInfantry Weaponsâ€ the PA 63 in 9x18 Makarov was the standard sidearm of the Hungarian military and police. Also according to Janeâ€™s, the AP 9 was the same pistol but chambered for the 7,65 Browning Short (.32 ACP) and the Browning 9 mm Short (.380 ACP) and intended for commercial sale. I suspect Janeâ€™s may have this backwards, as Iâ€™ve seen a number of AP 9 pistols chambered for the 9x18 Makarov with Hungarian police/military markings.
But be all that as it may, the PA 63 has been imported into the US and sold under a host of different names including the PPH, PA 63, AP 9, PMK, and PMK II. The first PA 63â€™s imported into the US were imported by InterArms and were marked and sold as Model PPH pistols. PA 63â€™s imported and sold by Century have had the model designations PA 63 and AP 9. KBI has imported and sold the pistol as the PA 63. InterArms imported and sold the pistol as the PMK II (in a steel frame variation).
In terms of quality of manufacture, IMO there isnâ€™t much difference between a FEG PA 63 and a Makarov. Both are well made and reliable pistols. The larger size of the Makarov pistol is an advantage for the purchaser who simply wants a range pistol for recreational shooting, as this larger size makes the Makarov pistol less unpleasant to shoot. Conversely, the smaller size of the PA 63 (and more so in the case of the yet smaller FEG SMC) is an advantage to the purchaser who buys a pistol to carry concealed.
My advice to the folks who ask, â€œShould I buy a Makarov or a PA 63?â€ has always been â€œBuy one of each.â€
P.S. I'll cross post this to the FEG forum, as that forum is more appropriate for this thread
Keep It Real, Soul Bro!
Thanks for the follow-up. The only older guns that I really know much about are the Warsaw Pact arms, which often get new springs from American owners. Come to think of it, this is usually not because the stock springs are "worn out," but to make the pistols less ammo sensitive or more comfortable. This is really what you're doing with a PA-63, since the pistol functions perfectly well with the stock spring. You just won't want to shoot it as much!
Are you advertising?
I don't think so, not sure what I'm advertising...
I'm looking for a Mak for my daughter... NO I AIN"T GIVING HER MINE!!! and out of curiosity I went to a couple of auction sites and it seems the vast majority of Makarovs for sale are the FEGs. How come? Is there an abundance of them or are the owners trying to dump them or what? I don't especially like the FEG because of the frame (uncomfortable, sharp edges etc.) and bad rap for feed problems and inaccuracy. A friend of mine just bought one and we went out and burned up some ammo together and my Russian Mak just overwhelmed his FEG. He couldn't even keep it on the paper and the frame was rough on his hand.
My daughter wants to carry one but I would like to get her a very dependable, accurate one and one that doesn't need finishing work which obviuosly she can't do. The main reason she likes the Mak is she is familiar with mine and has shot it plenty.
The PA-63 seems to come and go in cycles. A lot were sold around 9/11, both because of 9/11 and a general lack of true Makarovs for sale at the time. I suspect a lot of panic buyers are now getting rid of them, or folks are about to upgrade to a Mak (since more are supposed to hit the shores any day now).