From the News..this will keep you awake.

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Doglips, Mar 25, 2002.

  1. Doglips

    Doglips G&G Newbie

    Ok I know Im infamause for the Joke posting, but since Im on Eastern time I get the evening news before you west coast people...I realy wish this was a joke... In any case Ill just post a small quoat from the artical on Nuclar Power plant security...
    Ill link to the whole story....makes me want to order that gas mask..

    AP) Security at the nation's nuclear plants is so poor that terrorists might now be secretly working at reactors, a congressman says in a report on homeland security.

    U.S. Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass., said the nation's 86 most sensitive nuclear facilities fail to screen workers for terrorist ties, and do not know how many foreign nationals work at plants.

    "Terrorists may now be employed at nuclear reactors in the United States just as terrorists enrolled in flight schools in the U.S.," Markey said in his report, entitled "Security Gap: A Hard Look at Soft Spots in Our Civilian Nuclear Reactor Security."

    Markey, a proponent of federalizing nuclear plant safety, said the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has not sufficiently improved security after Sept. 11.

    NRC spokeswoman Diane Screnci declined to discuss the report's details, saying that "we don't normally comment on press releases from members of Congress."

    She told The Boston Globe that security staff at nuclear plants are fingerprinted, and that minimum staffing levels at plants are included in security plans filed with the NRC.

    The NRC fails to check workers for possible terrorist ties, Markey claimed.

    ************* I LOVE THIS PART *******************
    "As long as they have no criminal record in this country, al Qaeda operatives are not required to pass any security check intended to find and expose terrorist links," he said.
    **************************************************

    Every job applicant undergoes criminal, psychological and employment history checks, according to the Nuclear Energy Institute. But NRC data shows that foreign job applicants are not screened for crimes committed overseas, Markey said.

    Terrorists could infiltrate plants, Markey said, the way they did flight schools before Sept. 11.

    "The threat is no longer theoretical," he said.


    http://www.msnbc.com/news/729129.asp?0dm=V21LN#BODY
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2002
  2. That is the craziest thing I ever heard, and I live in Canada!!!
    I thought we had some rather lack or silly security rules, but that one takes the cake, or whatever those terrorist b###ards eat.
     

  3. Doglips

    Doglips G&G Newbie

    I just love this part
    ************* I LOVE THIS PART *******************
    "As long as they have no criminal record in this country, al Qaeda operatives are not required to pass any security check intended to find and expose terrorist links," he said.
    **************************************************

    Read it Slowly..Al Qaeda operatives ... to find out if they are terrorist..... If they are "Al Qaeda operatives " they THEY ARE TERRORIST!!!! Thats it Im getting my shuvle and diging a bomb shelter....
     
  4. Shaun

    Shaun Retired Moderator

    Only our government let me guess they want to be PC - I am sorry Al Queda is a terrorist organization isn't the cure instant execution for them ?
     
  5. Doglips, if they hit a nuclear reactor in your neck of the woods, a gas mask will not do you much good. Probably melt on your face! Poor Taras lives in Canada where they are more worried about someone popping a cap in some criminals butt than they are about terrorists playing with nuclear reactors and bombs. Just because nothing has happened in Canada does not mean that it won't. Taras should move to the US and become a citizen so he can help vote out OUR antigun politicians. If he moves to Florida he can skip the citizen thing and vote early and often!
     
  6. Klaus

    Klaus G&G Newbie

    Wild Bill, you are mistaken about nuclear powerplants. If a terrorist or two got into a pressurized light water or boiling water reactor like what is used in the US and most of the world,about the worst they could do is shut the plant down. It would take hundreds of pounds of explosives to breach a reactor vessel and create any significant contamination. It is impossible to blow up any nuclear reactor like a nuclear bomb. Before anyone brings up Chernobyl, that was a totally different type of reactor, not used in US powerplants. Chernobyl used a graphite moderated reactor, which is unstable and requires constant adjustment by a computerized system to keep from blowing up. BTW, Chernobyl suffered a steam explosion, when the water got drastically overheated and the pressure burst the vessel. Nothing like that can happen in a US powerplant. 3 Mile Island was the worst case scenario for a commercial nuclear powerplant in the US, with the operators doing everything in their power to DELIBERATELY destroy the reactor. The coolant pumps were deliberately shut off. The automatic pressurizing system was deliberately shut off. The emergency fill system was deliberately shut off. Given the actions of the people in the control room, I doubt anyone could convince me it was just a series of mistakes. Despite the media generated hysteria, the reactor still was in no danger of exploding and no radiactive material was released into the environment, at least nothing that exceeded the EPA regs. There was a small experimental Army reactor, called SL-1, that did explode, like miniature Chernobyl. It was a very unusual experimental design, and quite a bit different from a civilian plant. Several people were killed and there was massive contamination, though in a fairly small area. It was by far the worst nuclear reactor related accident in the US, but no one seems to know about it, though it was reported in the news. This happened in Eastern Idaho in the 60s.Oddly, it got little coverage in the national news, though it was widely reported in the state and local papers.
     
  7. Doglips

    Doglips G&G Newbie

    PER NRC / MSNBC

    Ill just paste this part....when you get to how they believe the key to preventing an aircraft from crashing into these plants is the airline security...then please see my other post.

    MORE CONCERNS
    Other responses, the Markey analysis said, indicated that:
    Only four of 104 nuclear reactors across the country were designed to take into account the impact from an aircraft. And three of those four were only for small aircraft, not jetliners.
    An aircraft could cause a core meltdown by means other than crashing into a nuclear reactor, especially if it caused a chain reaction of events. Cutting off electrical power to the reactor, the NRC said, could damage the core reactor in about two hours.

    *********************************************
    “The NRC recognizes that aircraft crashes may result in multiple-failure initiating events,â€￾ the agency wrote.
    ****************************************************
    The commission’s rationale for rejecting the idea of anti-aircraft defenses around nuclear plants is that those weapons would create “enormous command-and-control problems and a large potential for unintended consequences and collateral damages if such weaponry were deployed.â€￾

    **************************************************
    “The commission believes that the proper way to deal with the potential hijacking of a large commercial aircraft by suicidal terrorists is through the measures on airline security now well under way,â€￾ it said in its response.

    **************************************************


    Security of spent nuclear fuel, the highly radioactive waste produced by reactors, is lower at decommissioned reactors than at operating ones because the NRC assumed the greatest safety risk is an accidental fire that could be quickly extinguished.
    “There is a possibility that, with enough explosives, both a spent nuclear fuel pool or spent fuel dry cask can be penetrated,â€￾ the NRC acknowledged in its response.

    Sleep Tight
    ;) ;)
     
  8. Klaus

    Klaus G&G Newbie

    Even a plane crash into a civilian reactor would probably not break open the reactor vessel. The containment building could collapse, causing a primary coolant leak, but the coolant is not very dangerous. The core could suffer a partial meltdown, but it should be contained in the vessel and basin. Now nuclear waste is something to worry about. The high level waste is extremely toxic, as well as radioactive, and persistant. High level waste and plutonium is a far greater threat than power plants, if terrorists should get some. :eek:
     
  9. hey Wild Bill --- Ben Franklin right? (your signature)
     
  10. Mac_Muz

    Mac_Muz G&G Newbie

    I don't believe one word poly ticks say about it..... I live near Sea Brook, anmd I went there when it was being built. The labor force was a joke. They were not allowed to build in a timely mannor, and the day I was there, these guy were horse racing in a lower level. The horses were saw horses with heads and tails, and these guys were skootching these horse along... At the time I thought it was funny, but after looking back and thinking about it, I realized the bordom involved.

    I would not trust one word stated by one of those "In the know" What might be great looking on paper, and what might have been built are often not the same thing......

    I saw x rays from some other reactor... I can't remember which, but out of the several hundred x rays, it turned out they were all the very same one! Hundres of copies of the same thing over and over....... Untill some low level inspector brought up that fact, everypone else was totally happy with what they saw!!!!!!!

    At this point in time, it to me has been proven beyond the shadow of doubt, the the Gov, and the regultory agencies are all inept....... They can't prtect themselves from themselves, let alone protect any one else.......

    To even think someone is protecting us is a joke of hudge proportions........ I believe very quickly now, we will find it is "Every man to himself" while the BS line of "we are doing our best to protect you.yyou.yyou.yyou.yyou.yyou.yyou" is still running..........."Live".......Yeah Live! Right on dudes....... Mac
     
  11. Klaus

    Klaus G&G Newbie

    I stand by my posts. Weld flaws and such may cause coolant leaks and cause plant shut downs, but they are not a public health problem. I was trying to explain that a big Chernobyl type explosion can not be set off in a US commercial powerplant, even if some terrorists got in. Like I pointed out, Three Mile Island WAS the worst case scenario for the US type light water reactor. Chernobyl was the worst case scenario for the Russian graphite moderated reactor. All reactors are not created equal.
     
  12. Doglips

    Doglips G&G Newbie

    For ME..and me only..I dont realy care if it creats a nuclar mushroom cloud or a puff of smoke...the psychological inpact would be great...and lets face it who woul be telling us not to worry its safe and ok..the goverment....let so much as a radio controled modle airplane hit the parking lot of one of these places and you will see a human stampeed...and lets face it people (Americans) tranpled each other to get into a WHO concert...can you imagin how people would be driveing to evacuate the area around a nuclar incadent....even if NOTHING happened to the plant other than chiped the paint...I mean would you stay? Would you go the goverment says its ok so Im going to work now...nope we will all be driveing like nut cases....
     
  13. Mac_Muz

    Mac_Muz G&G Newbie

    Klaus, I was not taking away from you stance. Just pointing out that at least one of these plants was held up by Burro Kratic BS while under construction, and may, or may not be built correctly.
    Any part, or parts of Sea Brook may contain flaws from the get go, starting with bad paint in the parking lot, and ending with what ever makes the thing tick.......

    The congressman from Mass likely has other motives driving his rant, but if Sea Brook which is just over the New Hampshire line has a big problem, like a 747 ramming it, Massachusettes will have a great portion of that problem. But thats only fair as mass gobbles up most of the juice made there anyway.....

    If all is well then all is well, but if the thing is not well and never has been, thats another story.... I am in no place or position to know. But seeing guys horse racing in the lower level where I was with a friend that was working there.... After thinking about it, my confidence is some what rattled.

    It is possible that concreat supposed to be say 18" thick is only 4" and if it was to have steel reinforcement, that there might not be any..... Mac
     
  14. Gyrene

    Gyrene G&G Newbie

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    Mac_Muz - Not to mention that the "High Density" concrete might be standard density instead.

    I had this happen to an X-Ray facility that I helped design, and people were working all around it. About 2 years after it went into operation, I had to perform a "Radiation Survey" of the facility, to document it for the record, in case the state or Federal nuclear regulatory people came in to check it out. I was kept from doing this on a biweekly basis due to the "Press of Business", until then.

    Well, I found out that radiation was so intense within 75 feet of the X-Ray facility with only half of the X-Ray tube power, that everyone within 75 feet was getting more than the level of X Radiation they would receive from a chest X-Ray every hour (about 125 mr). I shut it down immediately, and wrote the report, pointing out the fact that the walls were the correct thickness, and it could only be that the concrete density was too low, which was causing the radiation leak.

    I was told the facility was not going to be used anymore. Shortly after this was shut down, I was sent on the road to perform validation of Electron Beam and Laser Welding suppliers for the company. After 3 months, I returned and then sent to Europe to perform audits of company suppliers that were supplying electronic circuit cards. One after another trip was planned for me, as I found, to keep me out of the plant, so they could continue using the X-Ray facility, without me knowing it was being done. After another 2 years on the road I returned to find that they had just finished installing lead lining inside the walls, so they could meet the 2mr per hour limitation for nonmonitored workers. I found out then they had been using the facility all along, and had done nothing to protect the workers outside the X-Ray facility. Further checking revealed that now they had installed some steel piping overhead of the X-Ray facility and now they had scatter radiation bouncing all over the building, with very intense areas that far exceeded the previous exposures. It was shut down again and not started up until all issues had been resolved, except the one about what to do about the workers who had been unknowingly exposed. The State and Federal Officials who reviewed it said they would take care of that issue. They must have swept it under the rug, because I never heard anything else related to the problem.

    Another story is what the Federal Government did to us "Downwinders" in Eastern Washington, Northern Idaho, and Northeastern Oregon, with their intentional releases of radiation to see what it would do to the general population. The way I got the information from the HHIN (Hanford Health Information Network), was that they released more radiation every month from late 1944 through late 1973, than came out of Chernoble altogether. This is just the unclassified information, and the classified information may contain additional radiation release data. The unclassified data is stored in the Gonzaga University Bing Crosby Library, in Spokane, Washington, last I heard. This is where the bombs that were dropped on Japan had the material developed.
     
  15. Mac_Muz

    Mac_Muz G&G Newbie

    Once again I will point out that I am not qualifed in any way shape or form, But as a citizen I feel as though I have been raped by Gov. officials and those that are in place to "Protect me"

    Now I have been a foreign car mechanic, and worked in many "Flat Rate" shops, and I know first hand what can happen there. I can imagine that similar things happen in other lines, and fields...

    Even though the technology exists, and the materials exist for the best quality know to industry standards, that does not mean you will get that quality, even if you paid for it. There is always someone that seems to feel a need to line his pocket, be it a flat rate wrench, or a contractor, or a Burro k-rat.

    Whay you say Gyrene, somehow does not surprize me one bit. I found it very interesting as well. If I am not wrong you witnessed this first hand.

    Historicly speaking the Gov. has been pulling this type of thing since day 1! The first revolutionary soldiers were cheat from the day the Rev. War ended. Many of Rank were forced to pay regulars from their personal pockets. Some of those died in poverty. Right after the war ended the Gov. decided they would pay in land, but they did not have the land.... The French still held the central parts of this continent. One of many the recieved French land were the Clarks.... And so it goes....

    I have never trusted big Gov. But now even less. it does not matter who sits in the White house one bit. To me that is just a face I see sayin this, or sayin that... What I hear may be true, partly true, or just plain a BIG FAT LIE. As soon as one issure that needs to be delt with another comes along to spin the first off to the side into limbo.

    What I did like, was a few years ago Cali had a humdinger of a earthquake. I was sitting safe in NH, where I live, but the thing that interested me was the fact that the Local Gov. called off all bets and regulations to get the hi-ways restored ASAP.

    I have no failth, trust, that anyone will do the right thing, not before they pad their pocket first anyway...... My 2 cents..Mac
     
  16. Gyrene

    Gyrene G&G Newbie

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    Mac_Muz - As a Citizen, you're qualified in my book, to evaluate questionable activity of Government Officials elected, appointed, or hired Civil Service!

    Yes, I was there for many of those years. Most of the airborne radiation was Iodine 131, which was eaten by cows with the grass, and it passed into the milk supply for those who drank milk (all kids). This was in addition to the Iodine 131 that we were directly exposed to in the air, breathing it and all. There were some other isotopes but I do not know all of them. The worst releases were into the Columbia River where the cities of Richland, Kennewick, and Pasco took half of their drinking water, many different Isotopes of really nasty stuff! The people doing the releases lived there, too, drinking the water.

    I am also one of the Atomic Veterans, getting the opportunity to observe "Shot Hood" a 74 Kiloton Atomic bomb test at "Jackass Flats, Nevada" (you can find that as part of "Frenchman Flats), on 5 July 1957 from 3.5 miles away. What a Firecracker!!!

    Of course Marines (BCo1stBn5thMarines1stMarDiv) were following orders and were kneeling down in the 5 ft deep trenches, as ordered. We were at Ground Zero less than 8 hours after the blast. Afterward, we were checked for contamination and turned in our monitoring devices, including film badges, pocket dosimeters, and Survey meters (Geiger Counters to non-radiation workers) upon leaving. I received approximately 120 mrem exposure, comparable to the chest X-Ray. I did that under orders, and in no way regret the experience. We were properly monitored for exposure, as the Marine Corps does everything it can to protect all of its property, which includes ALL MARINES, from the latest Recruit to the Commandant!

    To the best of my knowledge, only one Marine ever suffered enough radiation exposure to die, and he was in an Air Force plane that flew through one of the clouds that formed above a Christmas Island Hydrogen bomb blast (everybody on board that plane died within 5 years).

    I worked for several years as an Industrial Radiographer, becomiing a ASNT Level 3 Instructor Examiner. I worked with Radioactive Isotopes (Cesium 137, Cobalt 60, & Iridium 192), X-Ray machines, and Linear Accelerators. They are deadly, for instance the common Iridium 192 Isotope is usually purchased at a 100 to 105 Curie level of radioactivity, and if you stay within 3 feet of it for only 15 minutes, someone will have to pick you up in a body bag! It is the least dangerous of the three Isotopes I mentioned.
     
  17. Mac_Muz

    Mac_Muz G&G Newbie

    I believe members of my wife's family were present at a blast in the ealy 50's in Nevada. I have some slides I think 6 of guys standing around watching the blast. What I don't have is a good way to reproduce the images, but do have what I have on the hard drive.

    If you would like these I am willing to e-mail them to you, but they are not good quality. If you have winzip I can send that way as well. I have Norton 2002 and all up to date. Norton 2002 scans incoming and all out going attacments, and so far I have deleted every virus that ever came here.. I never send attachments with out a request.... I feel any one should have choices.
    I had many choices taken from me for a long time, about 10 years.. I am listed with my email to the hot mail account, but would send on my paid account as it sends better..... That account has me as crowmckay@*************. Let me know your wishes..... Mac Or I see that I might be able to post the pics directly to here, but I am not sure about what others might not like if I did that.....
     
  18. Klaus

    Klaus G&G Newbie

    Viruses can not be transmitted by jpg, bmp, eml, txt, pic, gif, or tif files. Be very cautious opening vbs, scr, exe, and com files.
     
  19. Gyrene

    Gyrene G&G Newbie

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    Klaus - Thanks!

    Mac_Muz - Yes, I would like copies of the pictures, if you don't mind.

    To send an eMail, if you didn't know, go to the profile on one of my posts, and it offers the selection to send it. I don't have a problem with providing my eMail address, and if it doesn't work I have provided it here. <thamesde@netscape.net>

    I do have winzip. The guys standing around must be U. S. Army or civilians. Marines don't have that option, they are either crashed on the ground, standing at attention, or moving out.
     
  20. Mac_Muz

    Mac_Muz G&G Newbie

    Gyrene, For me it is more of a permission thing. I don't send copies of all manor of things automaticly. With out asking...
    And the account you recieve them from as I said will be crowmckay, and is my private personal account and not for passing to others. It send better than hotmail, which is my general purpose account. I believe they are USA ARMY, I will ask when I get a chance to see what more info I might provide, and expect I can figure out the what alls tomorrow.

    I am no computer wiz, and so it takes time to get things the way I think. My wife helps me, but only knows some of what we both need to know. She has been helping me with a graphic project that will ulitmately be painted on my motor bike, and has taken a break from a somewhat complicated design.....

    If there should be others that would like these sing out... but be ware these are kinda funky off my scanner with a little mirror tool that I hoped would do a better job...Mac