Front sight problem

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by joncs25, May 16, 2008.

  1. joncs25

    joncs25 Guest

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    I just bought a rifle recently and when i got a chance to shoot, it was shooting really low. I had to raise the back sight to about 600 to get it to be on target at about 100 yards. I have a N.M. front sight on a Dutch barrel. Anybody know any tricks?
     

  2. M1 Sight "Problem"

    It most likely isn't a problem at all. First off, if you're using a more-or-less "stock" M1 rear sight, the graduations of the elevation drum really don't mean too much... if anything, for that matter. (I've been firing the ol' girl for over forty years, and have never paid the markin's any mind, t'all..)

    Here's what to try:

    Go to the range, and run the rear sight all the way down as far as she'll go.
    Put in eight (8) clicks of "up" elevation -- leave the windage alone for now.
    Load and fire a group of three shots at 50 yards, being very sure to use the same sight picture and sight alignment for each round.

    This should put you on the paper; I'd recommend a fairly sizable sheet to begin with. If the group's more-or-less centered and just a tad... say, one or two inches high... move the target out to 100 yards. If, however, the group is very low, put in three more clicks of "up" and shoot another group of three. If it's centered/high, go on to 100 yards, and shoot a group of three.

    Now, by examining the group's placement, and remembering that one click of either elevation or windage moves the bullet strike one inch at 100 yards, you can get your rifle zeroed using your ammo and your shooting techniques on your range.

    If you insist, you can adjust the elevation drum readings to "match" the ranges you are going to use. I find it much easier with my rifle, however, to remember how many clicks to "come up" for 200 and 300 yards. (I don't have access to a range greater than that.)

    HTH

    Ben Hartley
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2008
  3. joncs25

    joncs25 Guest

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    I was talking about the 600 mark on the rear sight just to give you reference to how high i had it before it would hit the paper at 100 yards. Ben, thanks for the info but that is about what i did when i was shooting. Except instead of moving 8 clicks up from the lowest position i had to move it up about 20 clicks before i hit the bottom of the paper. That seemed weird because it was about half my available elevation just to get it on the paper at 50 and 100 yards. I can get it sighted in at 100 yards it just doesn't seem right having the rear sight sticking up 3/4 of an inch.
     
  4. M1 Front Sight Height

    Jon...

    OK, we'll assume that the rear sight is OK. Is the front sight too high? Of so, that would cause your "hits low" problem. Before doing anything else, find the sight height. According the information in Jerry Kuhnhausen's The U.S. .30 Caliber Gas Operated Service Rifles, A Shop Manual, the critical dimension from the base of the sight to the top of the blade is 0.728" - 0.005" -- you'll probably need to use a mike or a reasonably good caliper to measure this.

    If the height is OK, then something else is outta whack, and I'll not even venture a guess as to what is might be. It becomes a case for a competent, hands-on gunsmith.

    Now, if the sight is, indeed, too high, you could carefully reduce it's height using a file, and test fire every so often. Removal of 0.008" material from the front sight blade's height will raise the impact 1" at 100 yards. Go slow!

    Sight too low? 'Bout your only choice is to replace it. There are any number of sources available.

    HTH

    Ben Hartley
     
  5. M1D-Garand

    M1D-Garand G&G Addict

    Probably the NM sight is causing a problem.
    A "dutch" barrel???
    Do you mean there is an "Artillery Instelling or AI" :feedback: inprint on the barrel in front of the front handguard??

    Rob
     
  6. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    On the elevation Knob there is a screw, loosen the screw and turn the elevation knob until it lines up with 100 and then tighten it back up. You have calibrated the site to you.
    Hopefully you are holding the top of the front blade to the center of the rear apeture and not at 6'oclock on the rear apeture.

    20 clicks is 18 clicks too much and maybe you have a mismatch. Are you sure you have the right front sight for the corresponding rear?

    Is the barrel bent? How tall is that front sight blade? On my M1A I filed it with a forward angle so it is only about 3/8 tall now, it made a BIG difference on the number of clicks needed at the 600 and gave me a more stable rear sight for LR. If the blade is real tall, shorten it.

    If you have checked out the sights to be sure they are correct for the rifle and you have checked out what Ben has told you. I would go to a Gunsmith.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
  7. joncs25

    joncs25 Guest

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    I appreciate the help. I'm thinking that the front sight is just not matched well with the rear. I might try filing it but i'll probably just leave it be and get over it.
     
  8. lefty o

    lefty o G&G Evangelist

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    if your using the sights properly, 8-10 clicks up from bottom will put you on at 100yds.
     
  9. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    You are probably right Lefty, but think about this.. and then MODIFY

    Why do you need 8 clicks for 100 yards? would 2 clicks serve just as well?
    If you have 8 clicks for 100 yards then how many would you end up having for 600 yards? With that many at 600 yards your ramp is pretty wobbly and your groups suffer big time. Now if you have 6 less at 100, you not only have a more stable ramp at 100 but you will end up with less wobble on the 600 and a more stable ramp there as well. FILE that baby down.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
  10. lefty o

    lefty o G&G Evangelist

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    huh! i guess everyone has been using the M1/M14 sights wrong for the last several decades.
     
  11. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Sorry it didn't make sense to you. When you shoot a HIGH POWER MATCH and you want to improve scores, you will file the front sight, GUARANTEED.

    No one said anything about using them wrong, that would be SIGHT PICTURE and SIGHT ALIGNMENT, what I am suggesting will tighten up the groups. 8 clicks for 100 yards is not necessary, do you plan on taking 7 clicks off between 1 yard and 100 yards?? then why have 8 clicks for 100 yards? file the front sight down. Keep the Ramp inside the Sight housing as much as possible, the less clicks added the less wobble on the ramp the tighter the groups. File angled towards the front so you don't pick up glare.

    The M1 and the M1A and M14 are Combat Rifles. You can add MATCH SIGHTS, smaller Apetures, different front blades, 1/2 Minute adjustments, heavier barrels, composite stocks, refined triggers, hand selected Ramp and worm, chrome lined barrels, glass bedding, etc, those are called IMPROVEMENTS, so isn't filing the FRONT SIGHT.

    Take the info or leave it, no problem.....:)
     
  12. jpwilly

    jpwilly Guest

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    First, how many clicks up are you from the lowest point your rear sight will go? If its close to 8 the front sight is okay. Zero at 100 then reset the drum on the rear sight. IF your way up there than get out your file and set up so that your only a few clicks. That way if you change ammo you can adjust down a little just in case.
     
  13. Mooseman684

    Mooseman684 G&G Newbie

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    FYI...If you have to file the front site, EVERY .001 = 1 inch at 100 yards !!!
    Take your time, and be careful to keep the file straight and level...
    Rich
     
  14. M1D-Garand

    M1D-Garand G&G Addict

    My question has still not been answered: How do you know this barrel is Dutch???

    Rob
     
  15. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Moose

    I am compensating for the rear sight and not the bullet impact.

    .001, I think you have two to many zeros in that equation. When you add a sight adjustment on the M1, it is a noticeable adjustment for 1 click. That 1 click is far more than a thousandths of an inch. My M1a is 18 clicks at 600 yards and that ramp comes out a fair distance.
    On my M1A and on my competition M14 I took probably close to to 3/16 off, but you are very right about one thing. "Take your time" as far as straight and level, I disagree, you want it angled towards the muzzle, so the glare will be reflected from the front and not on top of the sight blade. Then when you Smoke the sight or Blacken it for Long Range, it will be crisp and clear in the apeture without that God Awful glare sitting on top of it. You will be only looking at the back of the blade. If you look at most M1As they already have a angle to them and that is for just that reason.

    I would suggest, to adjust the rear sight to where you would like it, plus add one click for a safety buffer, until finished. Whether it be 2 clicks from bottom which will be more than enough, even if you change ammo brands, that should only effect by an inch at 100 and that would be 1 click with a click to spare or 3 clicks. I would not want more than 3 clicks up from bottom. YOU decide.

    Now that you have the rear sight where you want it for 100 yards. Bench the firearm and file about 2 passes from rear to front with a downward angle towards the front. Fire three rds to see the placement of the group. If still low, file some more and fire 3 more rds to study the placement of the group. Once you start to hit the CENTER of the Target, move back to 25 yards and fire for confirmation. You should be 2.5 inches HIGH of center. Someone on these boards said a M1 Garrand was 25 meters and 250 meters for the two intersections of the line of sight.

    At this point you can file that one extra click you had on for a Buffer and that rear sight should be good and tight for 100 yard and you can go back to 25 meters and get your 250 yard confirmation, you may have to come down 2 clicks and that would give you a tighter rear sight for 25 meters and 250 meters. If you chose to keep 3 clicks on the rear, you still have one click to play with.

    M1 and M14 s were designed to be able to shoot a BSZ which is the kill zone of the enemy or from base of neck to waist. They were not designed intially for PRECISION shooting and when you want to use the weapon for that, MODIFCATIONS need to be done. Whether you chose to add GLASS BEDDING, Match Grade rear sights with a Hood and a smaller apeture and FILING the front sight blade or whatever. You can always BUY another front Sight Blade and keep it as a spare. It really doesn't take much to sight a Rifle in, once you know what you are doing. ADJUST for DEAD CENTER Bulls.

    When you go fishing you will probably have more than one hook and more than one lure, same when you want to get into shooting. Keep spare parts handy. BUT do not be afraid to try something that may IMPROVE the end results, that is what shooting is all about. Plinking on the other hand, keet it the way it is.

    I also would NOT ZERO at 100 yards but would ZERO at the 25 meter (I was told that was the first intersection range, I shoot M1As with .308 and they are 50 and 300. Google that or ask here what you two intersections are) and that way you have a short range Zero and a 250 meter ZERO and the 100 yard should be UP about 2.

    Good Luck and Good Shooting
    :)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2008
  16. lefty o

    lefty o G&G Evangelist

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    wingwiper, maybe your advice would have been applicable if he mentioned he was shooting at camp perry!
     
  17. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Lefty

    He said his sight was off and he had to do some cranking on the rear, I suggested FILING the front sight and that is where it started.

    ACCURACY is just that and regardless whether you are shooting Deer at 300 yards or Camp Perry Competition.

    I was NOT trying to insult anyone but was offering a suggestion that would work regardless. If he wants it to be more accurate at 100 and never shoot further that 100, then you are right, leave them alone. I was thinking he had a put togther M1 Garand and I would still suggest filing that sight blade down. My posts were not JUST for him but for anyone who wanted to take the advice and try it. I was trying to benefit as many as possible. Many people come to these posts and read them and post to them and NOT just the originator, so the info was for anyone who wanted it. It couldn't hurt and I am about outta ink trying to justify my logic in so doing. :)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2008
  18. lefty o

    lefty o G&G Evangelist

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    maybe you could write a little essay on accurizing sights for match shooting. you could get into annealing parts and squeezing them to tighten up the apperatures movement. most people do not want to modify their garands.
     
  19. Wingwiper

    Wingwiper Guest

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    Lefty

    Well the ones who DON"T, can IGNORE what I wrote. The ones who want to shoot them and enjoy them, can take the advice.

    I detect sarcasism in your posts, is there a reason for that? I have a STOCK M1A that I did a lot of work to, I hunt with it and I have shot some High Power Matches with it and it has done very well. It has HAND SELECTED rear ramp and worm from the MTU boys in Memphis. You can also go to Champions Choice dot com and get parts. As I said the M1 Garand was built to be able to obtain a BSZ and not for shooting precision. If you want the best of BOTH worlds, you need to do some mods.

    You could have ignored my posts but chose to respond and I responded to you. The Problem was?????? You don't have to speak for people, I think they can speak for themselves. I offered information based on many years of experience and you offered critism and I think I cleared up my justifications well enough for those who want to shoot better to be able to do so. His M1 did NOT sound like a Collector's Item from the very first sentence.