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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering if anybody had tried reloading the Magtech 2 1/2" CBC full brass hulls.

There's a few posts out on the interwebs, but most are by folks missing some basic firearm knowledge, and more then a few responses by folks with some basic reading comprehension issues.

I have a Winchester 1897 from 1904 (take-down, revision C, 3 screw fore end). Before you start beating me up for desecrating an historical icon, you can see a video of the actual gun on YouTube by searching the title "Winchester Model of 1897 (gun porn 6)" or videos under the user name "Marcucco".
(I didn't post a hot-link because I'm not sure about the forum's policies)
I shot some clay with it, the kick was actually about the same as my "Sweet 16" FN/Browning and didn't pattern as well.
Since the 97 was a shooter I could mess with it without any guilt. It has a 24" barrel now and it may get shorter depending on how it patterns.

Working out a proper propellent charge with turkey shot should be my first step.
Given the bore diameter to barrel length ratio I'm considering trying pistol powder.

The other issue I see is that the recess for the primer pocket sticks up about 1/8" above the interior floor of the shell. I saw a lot of complaints about ignition issues and 'bloopers' so I custom cut some 5/32 leather washers, hard boiled them and pasted them into the hulls with Waterglass (sodium silicate). I'm not sure how long they'll stay put or how to clean the hulls out when I need to change them, but firing a second load into a dislodged washer halfway down the barrel could be real ugly so I only did half a dozen.

Item last: Those primer pockets are scary tight with large pistol primers.
The pockets are .122" deep and the primers are .125" so I'm wondering if I should ream them a little. The 97's firing pin is the size of a 16 penny duplex nail and twice the weight, I don't see light strikes being an issue.
 

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Goomba ******, we have a member here who does all kinds of custom brass cased loads and developments with things that are far beyond my scope of knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised if he has some experience with the brass cases that you are asking about. Here's a link to a lengthy thread that he updates every now and then.
AND PS: You can link Youtube videos here on G&G and many of us frequently do.
**************
https://www.gunandgame.com/threads/585-he-barrels-of-cases.162630/
 

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******, I'm not a reloader, but I've worked with equipment with tight tolerances and I can tell you that the joke "If it doesn't fit, don't force it -- get a bigger hammer" is a bad joke when you come to delicate things. A primer is delicate.

In your shoes, I'd try reaming six or eight pockets and see how the primers react. If they fit better and ignite properly (I'm presuming here that you're not loading the powder but just testing the primer pocket mod for the first run), then maybe try it with powder but no wads and shot, and only then a full up test with a live shell.

When you have the test results, then you can modify your loading procedure for the brass hulls as needed. I think you'll find the reamed pockets are a necessary mod.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks Cyrano, I agree with your assessment.
The 12 Ga. is apart right now waiting for blueing so I'm not able to test fire the primers yet but I am going to order the reamer for the primer pockets.
Saw one video where the guy left the primer a little proud and thought that was fine. I'm guessing he missed the chapter on "head spacing".
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Goomba ******, we have a member here who does all kinds of custom brass cased loads and developments with things that are far beyond my scope of knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised if he has some experience with the brass cases that you are asking about. Here's a link to a lengthy thread that he updates every now and then.
AND PS: You can link Youtube videos here on G&G and many of us frequently do.
**************
https://www.gunandgame.com/threads/585-he-barrels-of-cases.162630/
Hay ChaZam, thanks for the info. Sorry I didn't find this post sooner, I'm sort of out of practice with forums format.
 

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Hay ChaZam, thanks for the info. Sorry I didn't find this post sooner, I'm sort of out of practice with forums format.
I had to do some searching too. When he makes his periodic posts it usually has some good info, and lot of it is about stuff that no one else has tried or documented...
 

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I am not a re loader for bullets but I have bought the Magtech Brass shotgun hulls and loaded them for 12 gauge antique Zulu shotgun I have. I believe I used large pistol primers though and not 209 primers. Also blackpowder with correct measurement. I went on U-tube and directions and vids on there. I loaded slugs and wads under but you use silicone to seal top so no crimp. Check out videos on there
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Thanks Rando, I did look at YouTube. There's quite a few videos up, but most of the users I saw didn't exactly inspire confidence.

I had converted some 26.5mm aluminum signal flare shells to use 209 primers. It's not that complicated but it compounds the loading problems. A 209 is .299" tall, a large pistol is only .125"
I had to cast some replaceable epoxy washers to fit the bottom of the shell to bring the black powder powder charge up above the flash hole on the primer. (they originally had paper wads pressed in.)

A 209 has quite a whack for a primer, I was firing a patched piece of 1" oak dowel as a test. The bare primer alone has enough force to fracture the dowel at 10 yards against a cinderblock wall with no "bullet" drop.
If that flash hole is up at the top of the powder charge, the 209 primer has already started the load out of the shell before the the powder has ignited.
I don't know that it's necessarily dangerous, but it's certainly not effective and more trouble then it's worth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Just so nobody thinks I'm blowing smoke here:

The top row shows the 26.5mm star shells. Left to right
A 209 primed shell,
a shell drilled for 209,
a stock primer pocket
an unfired shell with the stock primer.
Second row shows:
a .125" leather 'nitro card',
the primer side of a cast 'washer' used to keep the powder charge centered over primer.
The powder side of the 'washer' before it's drilled. (holes are sized to match the charge),
the last item is an original factory paper 'washer' after it's fired.
Below that is a test projectile 7/8" x 4 3/8", 15.7 g. with o rings
On the right is the silicone mold for casting the 'washers'.
I couldn't get a good photo down inside the shell but if you look in that silicone mold you can see how much the 209 primer sticks up thru the nipple for the primer pocket inside the shell.
On the left is the 1951 Czech made all steel signal pistol in 26.5mm.

Anyway, I've done my homework and a whole lot of hands on.
The upshot of all this is:
209 primers cause a lot of problems and don't seem to solve any.

Should I start a thread on reloading the 26.5? The ammo prices are totally out of control right now.
DSCF0862.JPG
 

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those brass hulls are meant for large pistol primers.
and for black powder loads.

they can be loaded with a normal load like a plastic hull.
you just have to measure your stack height very carefully and remember that not crimping the case will drop your pressures about 1500 psi.

the pistiol primer is more than adequate enough to touch off 17grs of faster shot shell powders, it does it all the time in stuff like the 44 magnum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
those brass hulls are meant for large pistol primers.
and for black powder loads.

they can be loaded with a normal load like a plastic hull.
you just have to measure your stack height very carefully and remember that not crimping the case will drop your pressures about 1500 psi.

the pistol primer is more than adequate enough to touch off 17grs of faster shot shell powders, it does it all the time in stuff like the 44 magnum.

I totally agree with you Runfiverun.
The thread took a left at the suggestion of converting to 209 primers. There's quite a bit of bandwidth wasted on this on YouTube and I was trying to show that it's a bad idea and supply some evidence to support my claim.

I have ordered a primer pocket reamer (the pockets on this batch of shells are .122" deep and the primers I have are .125 and a little scary to seat flush).
The thread should be back on track now.
I'm hopeing to work out both black powder and smokeless loads
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm not sure where your post went but thanks Shanebrews.
(what are you brewing? maybe we can be friends :))
I'm just trying to work up a couple good 12 gauge loads.
At this stage of the game my issue is getting the primers to seat properly.
I have seen folks doing some cool stuff with the CBC brass, but right now my mission is 12 ga.
 

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I'm not sure where your post went but thanks Shanebrews.
(what are you brewing? maybe we can be friends :))
I'm just trying to work up a couple good 12 gauge loads.
At this stage of the game my issue is getting the primers to seat properly.
I have seen folks doing some cool stuff with the CBC brass, but right now my mission is 12 ga.
I went back and checked and found out my memory was incorrect. .577/450 Martini-Henry is loaded from 24 gauge shot-shell casings.
 

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I had converted some 26.5mm aluminum signal flare shells to use 209 primers. It's not that complicated but it compounds the loading problems. A 209 is .299" tall, a large pistol is only .125"
I had to cast some replaceable epoxy washers to fit the bottom of the shell to bring the black powder powder charge up above the flash hole on the primer. (they originally had paper wads pressed in.)

A 209 has quite a whack for a primer, I was firing a patched piece of 1" oak dowel as a test. The bare primer alone has enough force to fracture the dowel at 10 yards against a cinderblock wall with no "bullet" drop.
If that flash hole is up at the top of the powder charge, the 209 primer has already started the load out of the shell before the the powder has ignited.
I don't know that it's necessarily dangerous, but it's certainly not effective and more trouble then it's worth.
Do tell us more about the flare gun reload, ******. I acquired a big, heavy brass one (not one of the WWI/WWII brass sheetmetal types) made in the 1930s from a friend who was cleaning out a house, and I always wondered what would happen if one of those aluminum cases was loaded with blackpowder and buckshot -- number of pellets, effective range, penetration, etc.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Do tell us more about the flare gun reload, ******. I acquired a big, heavy brass one (not one of the WWI/WWII brass
types) made in the 1930s from a friend who was cleaning out a house, and I always wondered what would happen if one of those aluminum cases was loaded with blackpowder and buckshot -- number of pellets, effective range, penetration, etc.
I'll start a new thread on it.
My interests were in fireworks and LTL rounds, Batons,Bean Bags, where can I get 1" superballs, how far can I accurately throw a cherrybomb and such.
It's a black powder pistol so I hadn't put much thought into offensive rounds.
The breech is strong enough, I know the Germans and the Soviet Bloc used them as mini grenade launchers, but I don't think that chamber or barrel would hold up under a charge with a payload more serious then a deterrent.
...of course staring down a 1"+ barrel would certainly give anyone cause to re-think their next move.
 

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black powder burns at about 14-K in pressure.
a 12 ga is pretty much limited to 12-K in pressure by saami.

anyway off the top of my head a 3 Dram black powder load of F or FF is about 75 or 80 grains of powder.
that's adequate to push a 1-1/8 oz load to 1200 fps.
if your using cards and cork to adjust stack height [with adequate compression] and a card on top with glue to seal everything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
black powder burns at about 14-K in pressure.
a 12 ga is pretty much limited to 12-K in pressure by saami.

anyway off the top of my head a 3 Dram black powder load of F or FF is about 75 or 80 grains of powder.
that's adequate to push a 1-1/8 oz load to 1200 fps.
if your using cards and cork to adjust stack height [with adequate compression] and a card on top with glue to seal everything.
Have you ever actually loaded or fired 12 ga CBC shells?
Can't wait to see what you'll say when I publish something with a 1.3 oz shot load.
 

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a few.
I got some from track of the wolf a couple of years back and shoot them in my hammered side by side.
I just hate pouring in that much powder to make a big boom, when I can load the same thing for cheap on a machine in 2 seconds.
 

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I am not a re loader for bullets but I have bought the Magtech Brass shotgun hulls and loaded them for 12 gauge antique Zulu shotgun I have. I believe I used large pistol primers though and not 209 primers. Also blackpowder with correct measurement. I went on U-tube and directions and vids on there. I loaded slugs and wads under but you use silicone to seal top so no crimp. Check out videos on there
rando, you lost me at the last step, "use silicone to seal top so no crimp." I can't visualize what you're doing, and what you are using. I'm envisioning a caulking gun with the silicone sealant you use in bathrooms, and I'm sure I'm wrong about that. Could you describe how you seal up the hull, please?

Also, what did they use back in the day when the brass hulls were the thing to seal the end? Wax and pasteboard or something similar? Just curious.
 
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