History Lesson-guns of the JFK Assasination

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Huey Rider, Jul 28, 2020.

  1. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

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    I've played with a lot of Carcanos, and I've never had one with a truly bad trigger, and only had a couple (both Terni) with rough bolts. Most of the WWII ones were a bit clunky in operation - especially compared to pre-war models, but the same guys who will dump on them for rough bolts and bad triggers will also glaze over and wax ecstatic about their Mosins - so it is all subjective.

    I've played with a Gardone, a Beretta and an Armaguerra that all had very slick bolts, and triggers at least as good as anything on a Mauser of the period, and often better.

    I've never shot a 7.35 Carcano, but I have shot them in 6.5 Carcano and 6.5 Jap, and accuracy is really good for the period. I think contemporary testing of the time came up with a roughly 3.8 MOA. I can get Minute-of-Coke-Can at 50 yards, easy, but I can't get 3.8.

    One of the gun review channels claimed 4.3 MOA with the Steinel ammo - which is designed to match the original bullet profile. All I've ever had access to was the PPU, and I can't reliably hit a cow pie at 100 - which is pretty much my gold standard for accuracy.

    I also have some weird WWI-produced ammo that was packaged in WWII clips that came in a sealed box of late-war surplus (the box date matched the clips). Because it is so unique I have never fired any. I traded off all but one clip to collectors and friends, but I still have one clip proudly displayed in my collection. I'd love to know the story behind those.
     
  2. BigEd63

    BigEd63 G&G Evangelist

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    Now here's a double barreled conspiracy theory of mine.
    Given the history between JFK and the Soviet Union & Cuba.
    Theory A- In Oswald's travels was he given intense special training for the hit?
    Considering his military record of so so marksmanship I'm not so sure about that.
    But roughly 3 years in the Soviet Union?

    Theory B- In Oswald's travels the Soviets found him to be the perfect patsy.
    So they scored the personnel files of the KGB, Spetsnaz and possibly members of US and Canadian Communist parties for a suitability trained and capable person to replace Lee Harvey Oswald.
    Pick the closest matching operative that's a trained and experienced shot with a rifle. Then give them plastic surgery if needed to touch up their appearance. Match them up with a trained operative "wife" to protect his cover
    Then send them "back" to the USA as a assassin sleeper cell couple.

    And I don't think they were or are the only ones.
    Don't think this level of infiltration is possible?
    On the lighter side of communist infiltration Google the name Vladimir Posner. Vladimir the Poser is what I called him when he appeared on US Television as a co-host with Phil Donahue the useful idiot libtard.
    And a second generation Soviet intelligence/propaganda operative.
    So don't think much worse can't have come to the USA.
     
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  3. BudW

    BudW G&G Evangelist

    That tells me he did it,if he were set up see who ever arranged it would have picked another rifle
     
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  4. Big Dog

    Big Dog Retired IT Dinosaur Wrangler Forum Contributor

    But...... Lee Harvey was not a trained experienced sniper.
    That had to make some difference.
     
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  5. quavodus

    quavodus G&G Enthusiast

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    I've always thought there was a coverup on the whole thing. A lot of things just don't add up
     
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  6. BigEd63

    BigEd63 G&G Evangelist

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    He wasn't....at least before spending 3 years living in the Soviet Union. Either trained or replaced with a body double operative.
    IIRC, he lived in what's now Belarus and worked as a lathe operator. What else he did besides marrying the daughter of a local intelligence operative of the Soviet Union I've no idea.:rolleyes:
    There's also a lot of intense subterfuge going on prior to the JFK hit. Like the "attempt" on Gen. Walker(ret) around a half year before JFK's assassination.
     
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  7. Jim Bridger

    Jim Bridger G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    Lee Harvey Oswald was a USMC soldier and served with a close friend of mine. He purchased the $12 dollar scoped rifle from the largest gun dealer at that time. Klien's Sporting good in Chicago. This old firm was destroyed by the Liberals later.
    Oswald was ordered off the public range as he was hitting the wrong targets at 50 yards. This was a crime never solved.:confused:
     
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  8. neophyte

    neophyte Wonderment :) Forum Contributor

    information: as I’ve read

    https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html

    In addition to the order coupon the envelope contained a. U.S. postal money order for $21.45, purchased as No. 2,202,130,462 in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963.7 The canceled money order was obtained from the Post Office Department. Opposite the printed words "Pay To" were written the words "Kleins Sporting Goods," and opposite the printed word "From" were written the words "A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915 Dallas, Texas." These words were also in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald. 8 (See Commission Exhibit No. 788, p. 120.)

    From Klein's records it was possible to trace the processing of the order after its receipt. A bank deposit made on March 13, 1963, included an item of $21.45. Klein's shipping order form shows an imprint made by the cash register which recorded the receipt of $21.45 on March 13, 1963. This price included $19.95 for the rifle and the scope, and $1.50 for postage and handling. The rifle without the scope cost only $12.78.9

    According to the vice president of Klein's, William Waldman, the scope was mounted on the rifle by a gunsmith employed by Klein's, and the rifle was shipped fully assembled in accordance with customary company procedures. 10 The specific rifle shipped against the order had been received by Klein's from Crescent on February 21, 1963. It bore the manufacturer's serial number C2766. On that date, Klein's placed an internal control number VC836 on this rifle. 11 According to Klein's shipping order form, one Italian carbine 6.5 X-4 x scope, control number VC836, serial number C2766, was shipped parcel post to "A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas," on March 20, 1963. 12 Information received from the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service has established that this particular rifle was the only rifle of its type bearing serial number C2766.13 (See app. X, p. 554.)
     
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  9. neophyte

    neophyte Wonderment :) Forum Contributor

    information: consider

    Continued
    Oswald's use of the name "Hidell" to purchase the assassination weapon was one of several instances in which he used this name as an alias. When arrested on the day of the assassination, he had in his possession a Smith & Wesson 38 caliber revolver purchased by mail-order coupon from Seaport-Traders, Inc., a mail-order division of George Rose & Co., Los Angeles. The mail-order coupon listed the purchaser as "A. J. Hidell Age 28" with the address of post office box 2915 in Dallas. 21 Handwriting experts from the FBI and the Treasury Department testified that the writing on the mail-order form was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.22

    Among other identification cards in Oswald's wallet at the time of his arrest were a Selective Service notice of classification, a Selective Service registration certificate,23 and a certificate of service in the U.S. Marine Corps,24 all three cards being in his own name. Also in his wallet at that time were a Selective Service notice of classification and a Marine certificate of service in the name of Alek James Hidell.25 On the Hidell Selective Service card there appeared a signature, "Alek J. Hidell," and the photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald.26 Experts on questioned documents from the Treasury Department and the FBI testified that the Hidell cards were counterfeit photographic reproductions made by photographing the Oswald cards, retouching the resulting negatives, and producing prints from the retouched negatives. The Hidell signature on the notice of classification was in the handwriting of Oswald. (See app. X, p. 572.)

    In Oswald's personal effects found in his room at 1026 North Beckley Avenue in Dallas was a purported international certificate of vaccination signed by "Dr. A. J. Hideel, Post Office Box 30016, New
     
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  10. quavodus

    quavodus G&G Enthusiast

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    I know I put down the Carcano, pretty bad. I didn't mean all Carcanos but, some I've looked at are pretty crude. They look like the were made by a blacksmith.
     
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  11. ACfixer

    ACfixer Global Warming Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    My 2 cents, he did it and made the shot(s)... but didn't act alone.

    I went to Dallas and looked out that window, any proficient shooter makes that shot. Now how he got that crow's nest and the job looking out over a presidential motorcade especially considering his background is ripe for discussion.
     
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  12. Jim Bridger

    Jim Bridger G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    The small scope Oswald used was like looking thru a Coke Bottle.
    The Japanese made rifles for the Italians during WWII that were much better than a Carcano.

     
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  13. Big Dog

    Big Dog Retired IT Dinosaur Wrangler Forum Contributor

    I once considered buying a Carcano carbine, but the cost and scarcity of the ammo, and difficulty finding other brass that could be reformed, made me refuse it. I won't have a gun I cannot shoot.
     
  14. Jim Bridger

    Jim Bridger G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    You are a wise old owl.:D
     
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  15. ACfixer

    ACfixer Global Warming Enthusiast Forum Contributor

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    Good description... but if you haven't been to Dealy Plaza, you really owe it to yourself to go. You have to see the shot for yourself and decide. I'll agree with a scope like that it would almost be easier with iron sights, certainly for target acquisition... but, you can make that shot, at least under non stressful circumstances. Whether or not you can make it when your heart is beating 300 times a minute and you're trying to kill the leader of the free world and the most famous person alive, obviously that factors into it. Unless it doesn't, and that's why I don't think he acted alone and I think he practiced the shot under simulated stress.

    The Jack Ruby thing seals the deal for me.

    It's a pile of crap. It's like a Mosin but with zero cool factor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 6:21 PM
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  16. rando

    rando G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

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    There were at least several carbine Models made like what was used to assassinate Kennedy. They were 6.5x62. They also made the long rifle in 7.53x51 . Some of those Carbines look cheap looking. I have the long rifle and not a bad rifle. PPU makes the ammo pretty reasonable for these. The bottom carbine pic is the one that was used by Oswald. 2Carcano6.5Carbine.jpg OIP1891Carcanolongrifle.jpg

    carcano-rifle-Kenedy.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 8:02 PM
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