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Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Txwheels, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

    Geez man, make one joke.
    Palladin8 and TACAV like this.
  2. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    I know you were not being serious lol.

    While I agree with you in that (as it concerns why the police use them) Glocks are cost effective and simple to use. (and they work/are reliable.)

    I disagree on the "easier to train part".

    As a police firearms instructor, training someone on how to use X,Y or Z pistol, there really isn't any difference.

    When you first start out as an entrance level officer candidate in the academy every single recruit is going to have to fire the same amount of rounds and get the same amount of training and hours of classroom and range training no matter what the make/model of the gun is.

    As such teaching a brand new recruit how to use a Glock is really no different than teaching someone how to use a Beretta M9 or a Sig Sauer, or a Smith and Wesson M&P... or for that matter teaching a new recruit and putting them through the exact same entrance level course for a revolver.... same amount of training hours and same amount of rounds fired.

    By the end of that 40 hours of initial non stop training and familiarization, the make/model of the gun is inconsequential, that student shooter will know how to use and be proficient with that model.

    You especially see this in regional mixed agency academies where you might have a number of different departments all sending their recruits to. And as such you can see half a dozen different handgun types out at the range during firearms training. Again, by the end of the week everyone will be at the same level with each other.

    As for laterals and transitions (like when someone who transfers overs from a different agency who was used to shooting A gun ... and now works for a place that shoots B gun... again... it's nothing that one or two trips to the range and some quality practice and training can't fix for manual of arms... like having to now remember to de-cock a DA/SA gun after carrying a striker fired gun.

    It's really about like going from diving a small 4 door sedan to now driving a big SUV or a truck for the first time... you have still been driving for years and you know how to drive... now with the change in vehicle you just have to be aware of one more thing... like it's extra size that you may not be used too... Or in the case of a handgun.. remembering to hit the de-cocker before you re-holster.

    If you were on a strict "i need to train someone on how to use X gun right now in 3 minutes"... yea maybe the glock or the revolver would win under those rules.

    (and we all know that they still would not be proficient with it)... but as it pertains to police and choosing a gun. That is not the situation nor how they are trained.

    The sheer amount of time that goes into any initial police duty weapon familiarization negates any small difference that one or another gun's minor difference in nomenclature and handling might pose.

    Another example... Training two non experienced boot army recruits... one on an AK74 and one an M16A4...

    If you only had 3 minutes to train someone on how to use said weapon system is there a strong argument that the AK74 type rifle would be easier to teach the absolute zero basics of in that three minutes? Probably...

    But if (assuming shooter skill is the same) you gave one recruit 40 hours worth of quality training on the AK74 and the other on the M16A4... by the end of that 40 hours... There won't be any differences.... AK74 or M16A4 despite the M16A4 being "more complicated/ less simple"... both will be run just as proficiently by either respective recruit.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    Palladin8 and Txwheels like this.

  3. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist

    There are ways of letting folks know if you are attempting to be humorous. ;)
    Txwheels likes this.
  4. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist


    However did the human race manage satirical writing or sarcasm without emojis?

    Ovid, Aesop, Swift, Wodehouse, Chaucer, Cervantes, Twain, Voltaire, Will Rogers, O. Henry, Huxley, Vonnegut, Heller, Douglas Adams, Pratchett, and hundreds more managed to do it for centuries without one winky face, or animated cartoon.

    Thanks to it's complete lack of emoticons I was absolutely convinced Tartuffe was a legitimately pious dude who nonetheless enjoyed adultery, and that Gimpel's wife Elka really was a good wife.
    TACAV likes this.
  5. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor


    Good comment,

    Sadly the great arts and crucial social norms of spoken and written communication these days are being lost while everyone sits around the dinner table with their faces buried in their cellphones. o_O
    Txwheels and SUBMOA like this.
  6. Palladin8

    Palladin8 G&G Evangelist

    Would you say that teaching a new recruit on a Glock vs. A firearm that maybe has a safety would require the same amount of time for training and for them to become proficient in each platform under stress fire situations?
    I think it would take longer on the handgun with manual safeties vs firearm that doesn't have external safeties.
    I can remember talking with a good friend's father who was an instructor at a police academy. He stated teaching someone on a Glock was much easier vs weapons with manual safeties. When put into stress fire situations the vast majority of the new recruits would forget to remove the safety on 1911 style pistols and struggled operating other handguns that have manual safeties.
  7. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor


    Again i think it comes down to time and quality of training...

    Regarding a fresh class of people who have no experience...

    if you have 3 minutes to teach someone something in a pinch... yes simpler is better... but if you have the time to do a dedicated prolonged teaching session (like a 40 hour straight class in entrance level firearms class for a specific handgun - your issued handgun) that will negate a lot of those differences.

    Total newbies aside, If you have situations where trained people under stress are forgetting to de-cock before they reholster like on a SIG, or forgetting to put the safety on a 1911... then they are probably also doing things like putting their finger on the trigger when it should be straight and outside the trigger guard along the frame or slide of the gun as well.

    And if you are doing things like that... regardless of make/model of gun, are you really a proficient shooter?

    The example you mentioned with the 1911... if you started out training with that platform as your dedicated carry gun... then instances of forgetting the safety will be a lot less frequent than say... someone who trained on something else that didn't have a safety (or a de cocker) and then switched some a gun that does have one.

    If you are starting day one with a fresh shooter who has never touched a 1911.. the whole safety on/safety off should be drilled into their heads and practiced from the get go.

    Likewise with the decocker on a Beretta M9 or a DA/SA Sig or hammer fired HK.

    If it's learned fresh from day one it's really not has hard as it sounds....

    where it can be more hard is if you are trying to get someone who is already an experienced shooter (and mind you experienced doesn't necessarily mean competent or good either) but someone who has shot a lot but who has never touched a gun with a manual safety/decocker....

    Just from habit alone or "muscle memory" it can be harder to get those people to get to remember to de-cock/ manipulate the safety.

    Also keep in mind that no matter what the platform is at the end of the day... out of a group you will also still have those couple of non shooters (that shooting is just not there cup of tea) that will forget to use safety on a 1911, forget to decock a SIG, or forget to take their finger off the trigger on a glock or not slap te crap out of the trigger when shooting it... (or properly unload it prior to taking it apart :rolleyes:) regardless... but that's a different topic.
    Palladin8 likes this.
  8. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist

    I said there were ways. I did not say you needed to use any symbols other than the alphabet. Your writing is hardly in the same league as the writers and philosophers you named. I have never found it difficult to discern their meaning. Your writings, however, are seldom as adroit.
  9. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

  10. gandog56

    gandog56 G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    Or that any black plastic semi-auto rifle is an assault rifle.
    TheWall likes this.