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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I’m going to aggravate some of you. Perhaps most of you. But here goes…

I’ll start with this: Being a liberal does not make someone a bad person.

Are there bad people on the extreme left? Yes, of course, just like there are bad people on the extreme right. Just like there are bad people who don’t give a tinker’s pittance about politics of any kind.

Because no matter where you look on the political spectrum, there are good people and there are bad people in that space. There is no political ideology that has cornered the market on “good” or “bad” people. Politics is like everything else in society, it is a reflection of humanity, and consequently it reflects both our good side and our bad side across the board.

To me this is stating the obvious. It is my sincere hope that it is obvious to you as well. But what I really want to focus on is how people are treated when they are perceived as a “bad” person.

When we go to war, the other guy is always the “bad” guy. And Americans tend to give enemy combatants nicknames, usually with derogatory intent. In WWI we called the Germans Hun and Fritz. In WWII we used names like Kraut and Nip. In Korea we called the enemy Buckethead and Gook. In Vietnam Gook continued, and we added Dinks, Charlie, and Slopes. Iraq and Afghanistan? Haji and Muj.

Soldiers assign the enemy nicknames as a mental defense mechanism. Giving them a derogatory nickname dehumanizes them. In fact, we don’t want to just dehumanize them, we want them to be subhuman. It makes it easier to kill them. Very few of us actually want to take the life of another human being, so dehumanizing the enemy, relegating them to the same status as an animal, helps to mitigate feelings of guilt we might otherwise feel for killing that other person.

War is the most extreme example, but I think we are starting to see shadows of dehumanization in everyday life. When people on the left see all right-wingers as bad people, and when people on the right see all leftists as bad people, they are walking that pathway toward dehumanization of the "other." When you see online bullying, trolls, doxing, and rioting with intent to hurt others, those are all pathways to dehumanization.

Psychologists have identified five phases in the dehumanization process. See if you don’t recognize all five of these phases happening in America right now:
1. Hinting at the subpar intelligence or morality of the "other" group.
2. The use of infestation analogies (i.e., “they” are a threat to “our” world).
3. Comparing "them" to animals.
4. Threats of violence (think BLM, Antifa, Neo-Nazis, etc.).
5. The removal of the other group from society (e.g., gun owners as a group).

Since when in America are people “good,” “bad,” or worthy of dehumanization just because they have a political viewpoint? America was literally founded on the idea of robust political discussion, considering all points of view. Read the debates between our Founding Fathers that took place in the Pennsylvania State House in Philadelphia, what we now call Independence Hall. Talk about robust debates. If people back then behaved like people are acting today, there would have never been a United States of America.

Along with Canada, we have learned, and we have practiced, the fine art of tolerance BETTER than any other society in history. We are not perfect, never have been and we never will be. But don't for a minute forget that, up until now, we are the best society that humanity has created, ever.

This country has undergone many, many changes throughout its 200+ years of history. Despite episodes of wickedness in our background, horrible things like slavery and throwing Japanese-Americans into concentration camps, as a nation we have persevered and become better over time. Improvement has always been an American hallmark... until now.

The most difficult feat in religion is forgiveness, and the most difficult feat in political discourse is listening with respect. But that's what we need to do. Model it. Show the other side how it is done. They will follow when our respectfulness becomes a mirror that reflects their poor behavior. They will learn, if we are willing to teach through example.

This sure as hell is no time to flush our long, difficult pathway to tolerance down the drain. Let that journey continue.
 

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I'm afraid at this point it IS about good and bad. When liberals expect us to be tolerant of them, but have no tolerance for us, when they cherish their right to free speech and deny us the right to speak freely, when they loot and burn and call it "peaceful protesting" it's time to call evil what it is, with no apologies.

Our very first civil war was against England, and we had the Tory faction among us. We had to root them out from among us. I don't remember which of our founding fathers said (paraphraseing) "Depart from us, may your chains rest lightly upon you, and we will try to forget that you were ever our countrymen".

At this time, I have no use for anyone who is not 100% for the United States, and 100% for the Constitution as it was written and intention behind the writing.

We tried diversity and tolerance, and look at where we are now because of it!
Rant over!
 

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Gray Wolf: Sir; perhaps

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
― Samuel Adams
 

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Gray Wolf: Sir; perhaps

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
― Samuel Adams
That's the one, thank you!
 

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Communism has no place in and is the antithesis of our Constitutional Republic.

With respect tolerating more and more of this sort of shit for the last hundred years has got this nation into the mess it's in now.

And I will call it out anywhere I see it.

There are some ideas that are worthy of saying not no but Hell No! to and what's being peddled now openly by the left is just that.

This "oh why can't we get along " line is old and stale in the light of the riots, arson, vandalism, beatings and murder done by the leftists and their useful idiots.
Gray Wolf: Sir; perhaps

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
― Samuel Adams
That's very fitting and a hell of a lot more polite than I feel about this right now.
 

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I’m going to aggravate some of you. Perhaps most of you. But here goes…

I’ll start with this: Being a liberal does not make someone a bad person.

Are there bad people on the extreme left? Yes, of course, just like there are bad people on the extreme right. Just like there are bad people who don’t give a tinker’s pittance about politics of any kind.

Because no matter where you look on the political spectrum, there are good people and there are bad people in that space. There is no political ideology that has cornered the market on “good” or “bad” people. Politics is like everything else in society, it is a reflection of humanity, and consequently it reflects both our good side and our bad side across the board.

To me this is stating the obvious. It is my sincere hope that it is obvious to you as well. But what I really want to focus on is how people are treated when they are perceived as a “bad” person.

When we go to war, the other guy is always the “bad” guy. And Americans tend to give enemy combatants nicknames, usually with derogatory intent. In WWI we called the Germans Hun and Fritz. In WWII we used names like Kraut and Nip. In Korea we called the enemy Buckethead and Gook. In Vietnam Gook continued, and we added Dinks, Charlie, and Slopes. Iraq and Afghanistan? Haji and Muj.

Soldiers assign the enemy nicknames as a mental defense mechanism. Giving them a derogatory nickname dehumanizes them. In fact, we don’t want to just dehumanize them, we want them to be subhuman. It makes it easier to kill them. Very few of us actually want to take the life of another human being, so dehumanizing the enemy, relegating them to the same status as an animal, helps to mitigate feelings of guilt we might otherwise feel for killing that other person.

War is the most extreme example, but I think we are starting to see shadows of dehumanization in everyday life. When people on the left see all right-wingers as bad people, and when people on the right see all leftists as bad people, they are walking that pathway toward dehumanization of the "other." When you see online bullying, trolls, doxing, and rioting with intent to hurt others, those are all pathways to dehumanization.

Psychologists have identified five phases in the dehumanization process. See if you don’t recognize all five of these phases happening in America right now:
1. Hinting at the subpar intelligence or morality of the "other" group.
2. The use of infestation analogies (i.e., “they” are a threat to “our” world).
3. Comparing "them" to animals.
4. Threats of violence (think BLM, Antifa, Neo-Nazis, etc.).
5. The removal of the other group from society (e.g., gun owners as a group).

Since when in America are people “good,” “bad,” or worthy of dehumanization just because they have a political viewpoint? America was literally founded on the idea of robust political discussion, considering all points of view. Read the debates between our Founding Fathers that took place in the Pennsylvania State House in Philadelphia, what we now call Independence Hall. Talk about robust debates. If people back then behaved like people are acting today, there would have never been a United States of America.

Along with Canada, we have learned, and we have practiced, the fine art of tolerance BETTER than any other society in history. We are not perfect, never have been and we never will be. But don't for a minute forget that, up until now, we are the best society that humanity has created, ever.

This country has undergone many, many changes throughout its 200+ years of history. Despite episodes of wickedness in our background, horrible things like slavery and throwing Japanese-Americans into concentration camps, as a nation we have persevered and become better over time. Improvement has always been an American hallmark... until now.

The most difficult feat in religion is forgiveness, and the most difficult feat in political discourse is listening with respect. But that's what we need to do. Model it. Show the other side how it is done. They will follow when our respectfulness becomes a mirror that reflects their poor behavior. They will learn, if we are willing to teach through example.

This sure as hell is no time to flush our long, difficult pathway to tolerance down the drain. Let that journey continue.
I beg to differ. By tolerating bad behavior you enable it.

Only God gets to judge someone as to what they have done in their journey of a human being.

Someone can have any beliefs they want. To be candid, I feel sorry for some people who choose to embrace ideas that are false, or to buy into propaganda. It's almost like a 4-pack a day chain smoker whose habit is affecting their health; they have made the choice to smoke. I can do nothing but perhaps point out that it IS smoking that's killing them and that they might want to stop. But I can't stop them from killing themselves.

It's when they take ME with them that I have a problem.

And liberals do this. If they voluntarily want to buy into crap and give away all they have to some huckster, if my counsel is asked I might point this out and suggest they not do it. Or if they're dwelling in fear about the WuFlu crap, I might point out the actual situation and if they want to help them to overcome their fears (and go out and live life whose time is finite).

But they don't stop there. Not only do they relish dwelling in their totally irrational fear, they want to DRAG ME with them. In fact will insist on it. With everything they do. And they don't have the guts to do it themselves or even present a coherent argument; they get OTHER people to enforce it for them. Rather than us let each other be and live and let live, they get someone else to coerce ME to be FORCED to buy into their crap. Whether it's limiting or taxing my fuel, taking my resources under force of threat or law (for something I've worked very hard), or limiting the tools I can have to defend myself (a very basic right)--or the circumstances under which I can HAVE those tools. They tell me I can't gather to practice my faith (under force of law and others taking my stuff or throwing me in jail). If I've built a business they send agents of the state to forcibly shut it down. Or they want to project their racism upon ME with violence because they're mad about something or other. And it's even got to the point where if I have a valid counter argument they forcibly shut my free speech down, censor it with bumper stickers, and use coercion to force me to shut up.

Sharing isn't sharing when you are forced to do it; it's simple theft. Perhaps they can figure out some 'legal' way to rationalize it, but it's still theft.

So they willingly behave badly by going out of their way to hurt others who simply want to live life rather than leaving them alone.

I'd call that a bad guy. As such, I DO think they qualify as 'bad people.' That doesn't mean I have to hate them, or don't have the hope that God touches their hearts. But I DO need to be wary of and stop their actions with MY boundaries (if I have to shoot someone who threatens my life, my families life, or property I probably feel genuinely sorry that that particular human being chose the path he did; that doesn't change the tactical decision to negate the threat). To include defending myself, home, and property.
 

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I’m going to aggravate some of you. Perhaps most of you. But here goes…

I’ll start with this: Being a liberal does not make someone a bad person.

Are there bad people on the extreme left? Yes, of course, just like there are bad people on the extreme right. Just like there are bad people who don’t give a tinker’s pittance about politics of any kind.

Because no matter where you look on the political spectrum, there are good people and there are bad people in that space. There is no political ideology that has cornered the market on “good” or “bad” people. Politics is like everything else in society, it is a reflection of humanity, and consequently it reflects both our good side and our bad side across the board.

To me this is stating the obvious. It is my sincere hope that it is obvious to you as well. But what I really want to focus on is how people are treated when they are perceived as a “bad” person.

When we go to war, the other guy is always the “bad” guy. And Americans tend to give enemy combatants nicknames, usually with derogatory intent. In WWI we called the Germans Hun and Fritz. In WWII we used names like Kraut and Nip. In Korea we called the enemy Buckethead and Gook. In Vietnam Gook continued, and we added Dinks, Charlie, and Slopes. Iraq and Afghanistan? Haji and Muj.

Soldiers assign the enemy nicknames as a mental defense mechanism. Giving them a derogatory nickname dehumanizes them. In fact, we don’t want to just dehumanize them, we want them to be subhuman. It makes it easier to kill them. Very few of us actually want to take the life of another human being, so dehumanizing the enemy, relegating them to the same status as an animal, helps to mitigate feelings of guilt we might otherwise feel for killing that other person.

War is the most extreme example, but I think we are starting to see shadows of dehumanization in everyday life. When people on the left see all right-wingers as bad people, and when people on the right see all leftists as bad people, they are walking that pathway toward dehumanization of the "other." When you see online bullying, trolls, doxing, and rioting with intent to hurt others, those are all pathways to dehumanization.

Psychologists have identified five phases in the dehumanization process. See if you don’t recognize all five of these phases happening in America right now:
1. Hinting at the subpar intelligence or morality of the "other" group.
2. The use of infestation analogies (i.e., “they” are a threat to “our” world).
3. Comparing "them" to animals.
4. Threats of violence (think BLM, Antifa, Neo-Nazis, etc.).
5. The removal of the other group from society (e.g., gun owners as a group).

Since when in America are people “good,” “bad,” or worthy of dehumanization just because they have a political viewpoint? America was literally founded on the idea of robust political discussion, considering all points of view. Read the debates between our Founding Fathers that took place in the Pennsylvania State House in Philadelphia, what we now call Independence Hall. Talk about robust debates. If people back then behaved like people are acting today, there would have never been a United States of America.

Along with Canada, we have learned, and we have practiced, the fine art of tolerance BETTER than any other society in history. We are not perfect, never have been and we never will be. But don't for a minute forget that, up until now, we are the best society that humanity has created, ever.

This country has undergone many, many changes throughout its 200+ years of history. Despite episodes of wickedness in our background, horrible things like slavery and throwing Japanese-Americans into concentration camps, as a nation we have persevered and become better over time. Improvement has always been an American hallmark... until now.

The most difficult feat in religion is forgiveness, and the most difficult feat in political discourse is listening with respect. But that's what we need to do. Model it. Show the other side how it is done. They will follow when our respectfulness becomes a mirror that reflects their poor behavior. They will learn, if we are willing to teach through example.

This sure as hell is no time to flush our long, difficult pathway to tolerance down the drain. Let that journey continue.
I beg to differ. By tolerating bad behavior you enable it........
TXplt beat me to it.

Kellen, you did not aggravate me in the least. I will simply point out that there is a flaw in your reasoning.

If an individual supports a group or cause that is antithetical to the stated goals and ideals of their own group or country, that individual is at least an enemy of their own group or country, if not a traitor to it. History is replete with examples of individuals supporting opposing causes of their own nations. From my era, Jane Fonda was one of the better known examples.

Anyone that can consciously vote for a political candidate that is openly anti-American, is openly identifying themselves as anti-American. Anyone that supports a political party, that in turn allows anti-American activism within it's own ranks, is again identifying themselves as anti-American. Whether their choice of support is made out of ignorance, or greed, is immaterial. The result is the same. That individual is openly supporting enemy action, and is therefore RIGHTFULLY considered an enemy to our country.

The ONLY reason the commucrat party has any power at all, is because it has continuously appealed to the baser and immoral tendencies of the weak minded and ignorant peoples of our nation. Their combined avarice and lust for power/wealth, at others' expense, is the only thing that binds them together. They have no thought of what is good for our country; only what is good for themselves.

As a patriotic American Veteran, I find them despicable.
 

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I trained dogs, Labs, German Shorthairs, Rottweilers, Wolf hybrids, other breeds, mutts and even my best buddy Rocky, a Toy Schnauzer. All of them have things in common. If you let them jump on you as puppies, they will jump on you as adults. Once a Rott gets above 100 pounds, jumping on you gets annoying, bird dogs just get you muddy. So, you stop it early. Every thing you do or do not do trains a dog.

Same with people. If you let them take your guns or restrict your speech or religion, then you will no longer have those rights, pretty simple really. Stop it early or lose it. Whether you call them the opposition, the enemy or the resistance, does not matter.....the result is evil. You face your enemy when and where you find him, tolerance in this context is a term for surrender negotiations. You are just discussing the terms of your surrender.
 

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I still see them as human beings.
retards for the most part,, but still human.
True. Charles Manson was a human, just misguided. I just have a problem with accepting the 1,000 people who looted Walmart in Philadelphia last night as having a divergent view. Seems to me they were just forcefully stealing stuff which will of course drive up the price of everything we buy at Walmart in the future, food and stuff like that.

I think you insulted retards. These people knew they were stealing stuff, a retarded person does not. On the flip side, my ex ran a program for people with limited intelligence in group homes, they would never do things like that.

Just my observation.
 

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....... America was literally founded on the idea of robust political discussion, considering all points of view. .......
This is another fallacy.

Not ALL POINTS OF VIEW were considered by the Founding Fathers, nor is it valid, even today, to consider ALL points of view, if we hope to maintain any substance of the ideals this nation was founded upon.

For example, the Founding Fathers would NOT have considered murdering newborn infants as an expedient form of birth control. Nor would they have considered Satanic Rituals as a valid form of religious exercise. Granted, these are extreme examples, but they are currently being expounded, TODAY, as "valid points of view" in political discussions.

As I stated in other threads, the degeneration of social and moral values in this country is the PRIMARY cause of the decaying political discourse, which has led to the extreme polarization of the voting populace. We are now locked in a daily battle of righteous versus evil, good versus bad, moral versus immoral, conscientious versus corrupt, and American versus anti-American.

This battle is literally the battle for the future existence of the Land of Liberty. If we lose, because we are too gutless to confront enemies within our OWN borders, then the last spark of human dignity will be extinguished, and we will drown in the morass of degradation that rules most of this planet.
 

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I'm afraid at this point it IS about good and bad. When liberals expect us to be tolerant of them, but have no tolerance for us, when they cherish their right to free speech and deny us the right to speak freely, when they loot and burn and call it "peaceful protesting" it's time to call evil what it is, with no apologies.

Our very first civil war was against England, and we had the Tory faction among us. We had to root them out from among us. I don't remember which of our founding fathers said (paraphraseing) "Depart from us, may your chains rest lightly upon you, and we will try to forget that you were ever our countrymen".

At this time, I have no use for anyone who is not 100% for the United States, and 100% for the Constitution as it was written and intention behind the writing.

We tried diversity and tolerance, and look at where we are now because of it!
Rant over!
Not a rant. True. It is a time for choosing between two very different roads. It is not a time for shades of pastel....those days are long gone.

As for "evil"......I disagree, Kellen. It indeed exists and the fact that it comes wearing costumes does not change that. The worst kind of evil is wrought by people with good intentions but no humility. Whether or not they mean well is irrelevant; the death, destruction and mayhem they cause is real. That needs to be put down.

From one of the most important philosophers of our age:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C.S. Lewis
 

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You can not tolerate people killing you AND survive.

You can do one or the other, not both.

You can not tolerate enslavement and remain free.

You can do one or the other, not both.

You can not be a free man AND pay for permissions to LIVE a normal life.

If it is going to come to blood, then let it be NOW while I am still capable to mount a defense and set an example for my family and the rest. I will sleep peacefully among the dead of my enemies.
 

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I myself see it as common sense. You can call it left or right or whatever you like. Thing is this nation is divided badly. The left side will do whatever to get their way. That means corruption and violence and ignorance. I dont see the left as good people running around destroying cities that others have to live , work, raise kids and survive in. Look what is still happening in certain cities that have Antifa and BLM surrounding them and a takeover. The truth is that lets say for instance the new antigun laws passed this year in Virginia. The democrats took over the state and doing against the grain of the people. So they had PEACEFUL demonstrations held in Richmond. Didnt help and the Democrats laughed behind their backs and passed the bills into law right after. I see Republicans as a non violent group of people and they dont destroy, burn, and condone violence to simply get their way. Things are changing though because the left has the right pushed and cramped into a corner. They are violent groups of people. Also the governments are siding with them and condone their behavior. I could go on and on here for days and get nasty but no it is not my way. Then so many lefties are brainwashed. How can you get a fair election these days because of the main swing states have these cities very highly populated and most are ok with violence, they dont want cops or be arrested for their crimes and choose to sponge off of the government. That is not supposed to be the American way. Each individual is supposed to contribute to society but the left wants to simply take and have the mindset as what can you give me. Not what I can do for my part to help this nation or state or my home town. I am sorry for the overrun sentences and paragraph's. I know Ten Man will shake his head. Have a good day everyone.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Tolerance of political viewpoints should not be construed as tolerance for rioting, looting, destruction, undermining the constitution, et al. Those are intolerable ACTIONS and need to be forcefully eliminated. Bad behavior, bad action, is not a gray area. Bad actors get what they deserve. No pity.

But Tolerance for a different viewpoint is something else. Tolerance for political viewpoints does not presume relinquishing your own politics to acquiessence. It does not mean appeasement or failure to oppose others' viewpoints vociferously.

It means, very simply, tolerating something we have absolutely no control over, and that is how other people think, in this case how they think politically. I accept that not everybody holds my same political views, and in effect that drives me to engage in political dialogue and debate more robustly, not more passively.

Personally, I am glad that our society is not comprised of one-dimensional clones, everyone thinking within a one-degree vector of each other. I am thankful that we have a 360-degree world to live in, or if not quite a full 360 degrees, then far more degrees of freedom and expression than any other country, even Canada. That is one of the core strengths that made the U.S. a beacon for the rest of the world.

It is within that context that I am advocating for tolerance. What I am advocating for is the preservation of our right to be different, and specifically to NOT allow extremists to shut-down that right through their intolerance and trampling of our freedoms. And equally, to say we should not respond to extremism with the same intolerance and limitations to freedom that they exhibit.
 

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I can see your point of not lumping people into a group & saying they are all the same. Because a few LEOs have done wrong, doesn't make them all bad, etc. However, when the "rank & file" fail to loudly denounce the radicals, they deserve to be "painted with the same brush".

When a liberal is accused of wrong doing, they all "circle the wagons" & protect him. I distinguish between liberal & democrat. Being democrat doesn't automatically mean a person is liberal. If a conservative or moderate democrat still votes for the liberal, however, merely because he/she is democrat, then they should be prepared for the backlash.

When a conservative is accused of wrong doing, his/her fellow conservatives seek their resignation.
 

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And equally, to say we should not respond to extremism with the same intolerance and limitations to freedom that they exhibit.
Your heart is in the right place, but that is where you will lose. Conservatives have taken the "high road" for years and have steadily retreated. We are running out of places to retreat; in your country and mine.

When someone wants to fight and they mean it...... you do not plead, you do not say that you do not wish to fight, you do not beg, you do not say that you believe in non-violence, you do not say that you believe we should all be tolerant and you do not turn either your back or your cheek.

You get in close and then WITHOUT WARNING, you get busy. Elbows and knees are preferred. You will be able to deliver more force and likely end it quickly. The first strike is ½ the fight. That is why you make sure it is you who hits first. Call it a pre-emptive counter punch. You stop when they are down and stay down.

THEN you can have the tolerance conversation.

It is important to get their undivided attention before you start with the sermon.
 

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For the liberals(leftists) to talk about tolerance is a joke !!! They are the most intolerant people I can imagine !!!!!!!!!!
 
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