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I am seriously ticked about being scammed, cheated, and lied to by various manufacturers; PARA, USA is one of those. It seems to me if a manufacturer touts certain claims, the product should meet those claims. PARA touts a 14+1 round capacity for their P14-45 pistol which simply is not true based on the capacity of the magazines furnished.
I am not the first customer, I'm sure, who has been misled by unscrupulous mandacturers and I doubt I'll be the last...but...

BTW, I am satisfied with the handgun; just not the magazines ant the asvertising gimmick used by PARA's marketing.

Now lets see what response, if any, I receive.

Para USA, LLC
10620 Southern Loop Blvd
Pineville, NC 28134-7381

Dear Sir;

I recently purchased a Para Hi-Cap P14-45 Stainless,serial number K00xxxx, which was and is advertised as a 14+1 round capacityfirearm. My purchase was made based on the higher capacity 14 roundcapabilities.

Upon taking the handgun to for its first range session Idiscovered neither of the two magazines which were included with the handgunwere capable of being loaded to the advertised capacity of 14 rounds; onemagazine accepted 12 rounds only, the other magazine snuggly accepted 13 roundsbut failed to function properly with 13 rounds loaded.

Although I liked the feel and function of the P14-45, Iam not quite satisfied in that it did not meet my expectations; nor did it meetthe specifications as advertised.

I subsequently visited the Para USA web-site and orderedtwo 14 round magazines listed as F500231 Double Stack, .45ACP, 14-round MagazineASSB.

Order Number 1428xxx
Customer PO Number 10000xxxx
Shipment Number 1601

I eventually was able to take the new magazines to therange for another session but quickly became bewildered to discover the newmagazines would only accept 12 rounds each.

When I returned home I checked the invoice for themagazines to ensure I had ordered the correct item magazines and then went backto the Para website. Both the invoice and the website verified I had, in fact,ordered 14 round magazines.

I feel Para USA is guilty of flagrant false advertisingand consumer fraud by claiming the P14-45 to be a 14+1 capacity firearm andthen providing magazines that are only capable of receiving 12 rounds incapacity.

I have contemplated filing a complaint with the FederalTrade Commission, Federal Attorney General’s Office, and the Missouri State’sAttorney General concerning false advertising and consumer fraud. I decided,however, first to allow Para to make things correct by providing me with the 14round magazines that should have been included with the firearm and, surely,should have been sent with my order of magazines.

Respectfully,
 

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Well written. I hope they make it right for you. Definitely give us an update on everything. I've had very few bad experience with customer service with firearms companies. Hopefully you won't either
 

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I am seriously ticked about being scammed, cheated, and lied to by various manufacturers; PARA, USA is one of those. It seems to me if a manufacturer touts certain claims, the product should meet those claims. PARA touts a 14+1 round capacity for their P14-45 pistol which simply is not true based on the capacity of the magazines furnished.
I am not the first customer, I'm sure, who has been misled by unscrupulous mandacturers and I doubt I'll be the last...but...

BTW, I am satisfied with the handgun; just not the magazines ant the asvertising gimmick used by PARA's marketing.

Now lets see what response, if any, I receive.

Para USA, LLC
10620 Southern Loop Blvd
Pineville, NC 28134-7381

Dear Sir;

I recently purchased a Para Hi-Cap P14-45 Stainless,serial number K00xxxx, which was and is advertised as a 14+1 round capacityfirearm. My purchase was made based on the higher capacity 14 roundcapabilities.

Upon taking the handgun to for its first range session Idiscovered neither of the two magazines which were included with the handgunwere capable of being loaded to the advertised capacity of 14 rounds; onemagazine accepted 12 rounds only, the other magazine snuggly accepted 13 roundsbut failed to function properly with 13 rounds loaded.

Although I liked the feel and function of the P14-45, Iam not quite satisfied in that it did not meet my expectations; nor did it meetthe specifications as advertised.

I subsequently visited the Para USA web-site and orderedtwo 14 round magazines listed as F500231 Double Stack, .45ACP, 14-round MagazineASSB.

Order Number 1428xxx
Customer PO Number 10000xxxx
Shipment Number 1601

I eventually was able to take the new magazines to therange for another session but quickly became bewildered to discover the newmagazines would only accept 12 rounds each.

When I returned home I checked the invoice for themagazines to ensure I had ordered the correct item magazines and then went backto the Para website. Both the invoice and the website verified I had, in fact,ordered 14 round magazines.

I feel Para USA is guilty of flagrant false advertisingand consumer fraud by claiming the P14-45 to be a 14+1 capacity firearm andthen providing magazines that are only capable of receiving 12 rounds incapacity.

I have contemplated filing a complaint with the FederalTrade Commission, Federal Attorney General’s Office, and the Missouri State’sAttorney General concerning false advertising and consumer fraud. I decided,however, first to allow Para to make things correct by providing me with the 14round magazines that should have been included with the firearm and, surely,should have been sent with my order of magazines.

Respectfully,
Well done. I have a Para PDA which is a doorstop and training gun. It's a good training gun because it teaches clearing FTFs and a horrible pistol for any other use.

I dealt with Para's customer service and sent it back to no avail. It got to the point my time is worth more than dealing with them or the cost of the gun so I simply relate my bad experience to anyone who is considering Para to recommend they go elsewhere. Para's customer service was noteworthy in its ineptitude, condecending manner, and unwillingness to help.

While determining why my gun was always jamming I was told their gun had an extensive break in period, was ammo sensitive, then given a lecture on +P rounds from someone who had no idea what +P rounds were (the gun jammed with ALL types of ammo--fed FMJ's SOMEWHAT OK but not any other type of HP, and didn't work with regular OR +P ammo). I wasn't mean but advised the individual I'd been shooting since 11, no other gun on the planet need such delicate handling to get it to work, and I'd really appreciate it if they'd fix it. Unlike most other gun manufacturers, he admantly refused to pay for warranty shipping and after I got the gun back it still had the same problems.

So I'll have nothing to do with them.

While I appreciate your pursuing help from other Federal agencies, I'd just throw in my 2c worth and say while they talk of "protecting" the average citizen most of these are useless for any real help to anyone but themselves and politicians. They are not worth our tax dollars and are mostly bureaucrats chasing big fines and lawsuits against folks who essentially are doing the right thing but have deep pockets and can be fleeced--typical corruption. Most of the federal "protection" consumer organizations are self-serving entities which are a form of legal extortion with implied protection for those who support the regime. They're not really interested in us little guys so you will probably get some type of nice letter and that's about it.

At least here our AG is honest and forthright on the matter and tells us simply that except in cases of bona fide fraud they don't much get involved in civil disputes.

A better approach might be what you have done here and to info copy Para that you will be advising your colleagues away from any business with them until hell freezes over.

EVERY OTHER firearms manufacturer I have dealt with has performed in an exemplary manner. Gone the extra mile to give a quality product.

All the best.
 

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It seems to me all of the firearms companies I have dealt with have been some of the most pleasurable to request help on a product from, that said I hope para turns out to be the same for you. I have never dealt with them personally though.
 

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Dang

oldjarhead: Sir, dang. I'm about 20minuets from their plant. Had considered working there.
As "Kentucky Fan" said. I've had excellent results with several different co's.

Sir, do follow up. A learning experience for us all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Well written. I hope they make it right for you. Definitely give us an update on everything. I've had very few bad experience with customer service with firearms companies. Hopefully you won't either
I fully intend to post their reply; good or bad. I will laud them for an acceptable good response...but will tell it how it is with whatever the outcome.

Well done. I have a Para PDA which is a doorstop and training gun. Para's customer service was noteworthy in its ineptitude, condecending manner, and unwillingness to help.

So I'll have nothing to do with them.
I appreciate your comments but please don't underestimate the tenacity of an old man. I don't really expect any assistance from any federal or state agency and, as do you, I find them self-serving entities of political banter.
BTW, I responded to a poster on another thread for dissing a corporation before he gave them the opportunity to resolve the problem. After he dissed them publically on this forum the company, when contacted, willingly resolved the issue. I'm simply following my own rules...it is up to them as to how the result will play out. Should I receive the run-around you received I will stand next to you yelling out to potential buyers to beware this brand.


Kentucky Fan;1779892[/QUOTE said:
Sir, do follow up. A learning experience for us all.
I'm glad that everyone has had good experiences with other 'major' firearms manufacturers; unfortunately I have not.

Ruger...Poor customer relations and/or service.

Walther...useless as tits on a boar hog...similar problems with three different P22's. Decent customer relations...pizz poor services. Thay have a 'you stupid consumer' attitude.

Charter Arms...rude and condescending customer relations and pizz poor tracking ability for services rendered. I have to admit the overall results were satisfactory.

Excell Arms...friendly but condescending with an attitude of 'you (consumer) have no idea what you are talking about'.

On the other hand, working with Savage Arms via the CEO and VP Marketing was absolutely flawless and a wonderful experience.

Also, None of the above have flagrantly committed false advertising or willful consumer fraud.

JMO

I'll post the results.
 

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Good to know Para has this sort of reputation. I am determined my next purchase is going to be a 1911 in .40S&W, or 9mm and Para was one of the companies I was considering. I guess I will keep saving towards that Springfield EMP.
 

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You know the new mags have tight springs and you CAN get 14 in it is Just hard to do so once you use them some and clean them they break in and they get essayer to load. Also a mag loader helps a lot just like the XDM .45 without the mag loader they give you with the kit you would not be able to get more than 13 rnds in the 15 rnd mag or like lading a 30rnd Geese gun mag where you can't get more than 10 in with out a mag loader to assist you..
 

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Every since they changed the springs in their mags several years ago, it's been a job to get the 14th round in many of them. I've never experienced the feeding issue you describe but the new springs are super stiff. The older spring as shown below the black mag body has 11 coils of conventional shape. The newer spring shown above the SS body has 12 coils shaped kind of dog legged and it is a few thousandth larger in diameter. The older & shorter ones I have feed like the day I first got them and they're much easier to load. All of my 10 newer ones are still hard to load, some several years into using them.

I hope they show you some courtesy and make you happy.

Too bad STI didn't buy them instead of Freedom Group.
 

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Cheated, lied to and scammed? Let me help!

I am seriously ticked about being scammed, cheated, and lied to by various manufacturers; PARA, USA is one of those. It seems to me if a manufacturer touts certain claims, the product should meet those claims. PARA touts a 14+1 round capacity for their P14-45 pistol which simply is not true based on the capacity of the magazines furnished.
I am not the first customer, I'm sure, who has been misled by unscrupulous mandacturers and I doubt I'll be the last...but...

BTW, I am satisfied with the handgun; just not the magazines ant the asvertising gimmick used by PARA's marketing.

Now lets see what response, if any, I receive.

Para USA, LLC
10620 Southern Loop Blvd
Pineville, NC 28134-7381

Dear Sir;

I recently purchased a Para Hi-Cap P14-45 Stainless,serial number K00xxxx, which was and is advertised as a 14+1 round capacityfirearm. My purchase was made based on the higher capacity 14 roundcapabilities.

Upon taking the handgun to for its first range session Idiscovered neither of the two magazines which were included with the handgunwere capable of being loaded to the advertised capacity of 14 rounds; onemagazine accepted 12 rounds only, the other magazine snuggly accepted 13 roundsbut failed to function properly with 13 rounds loaded.

Although I liked the feel and function of the P14-45, Iam not quite satisfied in that it did not meet my expectations; nor did it meetthe specifications as advertised.

I subsequently visited the Para USA web-site and orderedtwo 14 round magazines listed as F500231 Double Stack, .45ACP, 14-round MagazineASSB.

Order Number 1428xxx
Customer PO Number 10000xxxx
Shipment Number 1601

I eventually was able to take the new magazines to therange for another session but quickly became bewildered to discover the newmagazines would only accept 12 rounds each.

When I returned home I checked the invoice for themagazines to ensure I had ordered the correct item magazines and then went backto the Para website. Both the invoice and the website verified I had, in fact,ordered 14 round magazines.

I feel Para USA is guilty of flagrant false advertisingand consumer fraud by claiming the P14-45 to be a 14+1 capacity firearm andthen providing magazines that are only capable of receiving 12 rounds incapacity.

I have contemplated filing a complaint with the FederalTrade Commission, Federal Attorney General’s Office, and the Missouri State’sAttorney General concerning false advertising and consumer fraud. I decided,however, first to allow Para to make things correct by providing me with the 14round magazines that should have been included with the firearm and, surely,should have been sent with my order of magazines.

Respectfully,
Let me see if I can help a little bit - the 14 round mags are very difficult to load to capacity when they are new. The springs are pretty stiff so that they can push such a heavy column of brass and lead up to the barrel ramp and after a while they relax....but it takes technique if you load them by hand OR a quality mag loader to assist pushing the last two rounds down beneath the feed lips. They will go - I know - I've been shooting the 14-45 platforms for 10 plus years. I would suggest you load 12 rounds and allow the mags to sit for a week if you don't have a mag loader. For new mags I actually place the 14th round on top of the 13th round just in front of the feed lips and while applying pressure with my thumb I strike the base of the mag with the palm of my other hand - this seems to get the last bit of spring compression necessary to load the last round.....and it does get easier with time. Para has made considerable changes in the last 2 years and their customer service team is the best in the industry. I would suggest anyone that has had a problem in the past to give them a fesh look - head over to the 1911 forums and read about Travis Tomasie, keep an eye on their new web site coming after the NRA show and check out the new production hitting the shelves....hope everyone has a great day!
Best Regards,
Propa
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Let me see if I can help a little bit - the 14 round mags are very difficult to load to capacity when they are new. The springs are pretty stiff so that they can push such a heavy column of brass and lead up to the barrel ramp and after a while they relax....but it takes technique if you load them by hand OR a quality mag loader to assist pushing the last two rounds down beneath the feed lips. They will go - I know - I've been shooting the 14-45 platforms for 10 plus years. I would suggest you load 12 rounds and allow the mags to sit for a week if you don't have a mag loader. For new mags I actually place the 14th round on top of the 13th round just in front of the feed lips and while applying pressure with my thumb I strike the base of the mag with the palm of my other hand - this seems to get the last bit of spring compression necessary to load the last round.....and it does get easier with time. Para has made considerable changes in the last 2 years and their customer service team is the best in the industry. I would suggest anyone that has had a problem in the past to give them a fesh look - head over to the 1911 forums and read about Travis Tomasie, keep an eye on their new web site coming after the NRA show and check out the new production hitting the shelves....hope everyone has a great day!
Best Regards,
Propa
Thanks for the info. I have tried a variety of loading techniques and an HK loader device...all to no avail. I did trim down the follower on one magazine which allows 14-rounds be crammed into the magazine but it also allows the front of the follower to rise enough to lock back the slide after the 13th shot and prevents the feeding of the 14th round; so that was no real fix.

I find their customer service to be the worst I've ever had the misfortune of trying to deal with as it has been, now, in excess of 21 days without the courtesy of even a "too bad, live with it" response. I have subsequently written a second letter directly to the CEO...let's see if he has the courtesy and professionalism to respond to this issue. In all honesty, I doubt I will receive a response from him either. At present, I like the firearm, I have no repect for nor a desire to waste my money on future purchases with a company who displays a lack of concern for their consumer base.

As for Mr. Tomasie, he is a Para-team shooter and I doubt he is using an off-the-shelf, out-of-the-box commercial model handgun. Anyway, the gun is not my issue; it's the magazines, perceived false advertising, perceived consumer fraud, and the proven lack of customer service/relations.

My second letter to resolve this issue follows:


April 22, 2013

Chief Executive Officer
Para USA, LLC
10620 Southern Loop Blvd
Pineville, NC 28134-7381

Dear Sir;

I recently submitted the attached letter to PARA USA LLC concerning my purchase of a new P 14-45 from Academy Sports, Springfield, Missouri.

Nineteen days have elapsed without the courtesy of a response from your organization. In my opinion the failure to respond demonstrates a lack of professionalism and an uncaring attitude toward Para’s customers; neither are good business policies.

I have discussed the magazine issue with other owners of Para’s P 14-45 and it appears the issue I discuss in my previous letter is not an isolated case and appears prevalent with this model firearm and the associated magazines.

If Para USA chooses to ignore this issue, as has been demonstrated by the failure to respond to my initial letter, I find no other recourse than to follow through with the actions stated in that letter and to follow those actions by not recommending Para products to those consumers who are contemplating the purchase of a Para USA LLC product.

I will post this letter, as I have done with my previous letter, on firearms forums.

Respectfully,


 

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wow - thats odd....

...I can say anytime I've called the guys there they are super nice and helpful - and most every distributor I've spoken to has remarked how responsive the company has become to their needs. One of the guys even talked about touring their facility and how they shoot a full mag and a half mag of both HP and ball as part of the QC process on every pistol built - even on their competition pistols. I own several makes of pistols, plastic and otherwise, and my Paras have been the best of the lot. My Kimber shot the front sight off and the anodizing went away from my sweat almost immediately, my Springer had a grip safety failure almost out of the box, my Colt wouldn't feed anything but ball - but each one has been massaged/repaired to get them up to par....except the Paras - they ran out of the box. I hope you get some satisfaction from your unfortunate situation - it is obvious that you are a very demanding consumer and you need some help. Best of luck to you -
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
...I can say anytime I've called the guys there they are super nice and helpful - and most every distributor I've spoken to has remarked how responsive the company has become to their needs. One of the guys even talked about touring their facility and how they shoot a full mag and a half mag of both HP and ball as part of the QC process on every pistol built - even on their competition pistols. I own several makes of pistols, plastic and otherwise, and my Paras have been the best of the lot. My Kimber shot the front sight off and the anodizing went away from my sweat almost immediately, my Springer had a grip safety failure almost out of the box, my Colt wouldn't feed anything but ball - but each one has been massaged/repaired to get them up to par....except the Paras - they ran out of the box. I hope you get some satisfaction from your unfortunate situation - it is obvious that you are a very demanding consumer and you need some help. Best of luck to you -
In my posts I have stated that 'I like the pistol', so giving me your shooting history on your firearms isn't necessary as the actual firearm is not the issue.

Every other firearm I own whose manufacturer has touted a capacity or specific feature in their advertisements has met their claims; Para has not. If wanting what I pay for pursuant to the manufacturers' advertised claims, then I guess I meet your definition of a "demanding consumer"; otherwise your attacks at me mean nothing...I don't need help, I need results.

If you, sir, are happy spending your money for products that can't live up to the manufacturers claim that's good, I've worked too hard for mine.
 

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In my posts I have stated that 'I like the pistol', so giving me your shooting history on your firearms isn't necessary as the actual firearm is not the issue.

Every other firearm I own whose manufacturer has touted a capacity or specific feature in their advertisements has met their claims; Para has not. If wanting what I pay for pursuant to the manufacturers' advertised claims, then I guess I meet your definition of a "demanding consumer"; otherwise your attacks at me mean nothing...I don't need help, I need results.

If you, sir, are happy spending your money for products that can't live up to the manufacturers claim that's good, I've worked too hard for mine.
I was being sincere in that I hope you get help with your situation - others have stated the mags hold 14 rounds as do mine - you claimed since you can't load them to capacity it is someone else's fault - a great conspiracy against the consumer that frankly doesn't seem to hold water. It is like returning a snow board because you can't back flip like Shaun White..... ability plays a role. Out of the tens of thousands of pistols sold over the last 27 years if it was a problem they would already have been sued. Defaming a manufacturer should be done cautiously - they have the same ability for litigation as you - I encourage you to ask your LGS, ask other owners at the range, seek help from people that know and understand the product....and if you choose to go with another product then do so - find what works for you and shoot the snot out of it!
 

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I was being sincere in that I hope you get help with your situation - others have stated the mags hold 14 rounds as do mine - you claimed since you can't load them to capacity it is someone else's fault - a great conspiracy against the consumer that frankly doesn't seem to hold water. It is like returning a snow board because you can't back flip like Shaun White..... ability plays a role. Out of the tens of thousands of pistols sold over the last 27 years if it was a problem they would already have been sued. Defaming a manufacturer should be done cautiously - they have the same ability for litigation as you - I encourage you to ask your LGS, ask other owners at the range, seek help from people that know and understand the product....and if you choose to go with another product then do so - find what works for you and shoot the snot out of it!
It's not my place to jump in the middle of this, but it is a fact that sometimes, products don't live up to their reputation. Ever bought anything from Harbor Freight? I have had magazines not work, RIGHT OUT OF THE PACKAGE. There are certain guns that jam no matter what you feed them. My neighbor has a Chiappa .22lr 1911 that jams consistently. Some things just don't work as advertised.

Whatever happened to "The Customer is Always Right"?
Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Does propa stand for Pro-Para?
Andrew
That's what I'm thinkin'.

Doesn't matter anyway as he apparently reads posts the way he wants; not the way they're written; or he doesn't read the whole post. I'm simply calling Para out for their advertising claims and not meeting those claims; not the quality of their firearms.

I received several comments from other owners who are much more credible...My G&G members! Thanks guys!
 

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That's what I'm thinkin'.

Doesn't matter anyway as he apparently reads posts the way he wants; not the way they're written; or he doesn't read the whole post. I'm simply calling Para out for their advertising claims and not meeting those claims; not the quality of their firearms.

I received several comments from other owners who are much more credible...My G&G members! Thanks guys!
Well sir, if you get mad at said pistol/company you can always sell me that para... I need to pop the 1911 cherry...
 
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