[Guest]

In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

Defenders of the 1911 will vehemently contest these last three perceptions, pointing to the superior trigger and durability of the 1911, and the superior stopping power and inherent accuracy of the .45 ACP cartridge. In terms of safety, three conditions must be met for the cocked and locked 1911 to fire: (1) a firing grip must depress the grip safety; (2) the manual safety must be taken off, and (3) the trigger must be pulled. Nevertheless, it looks scary and the Armed Forces have documented negligent discharges from improperly handled pistols.

It could be said that the 1911 fell victim to its own mythology. I grew up hearing the stories of the .45--that it kicked so badly that an inexperienced person couldn't hit a door from twenty feet away with one, that a man, struck anywhere on the body by a .45 round would be knocked down as if hit by a truck, and that you could shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45. (A Zero was downed with a .45 but by a head shot on the pilot by an American aviator parachuting from a bomber. The Zero was trying to strafe the American.) In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.

My Own Opinion:

The M9, Beretta 92 F, has the smoothest slide and the lightest recoil spring of any major caliber pistol I know of. When you rack the slide of the M9, you can feel the precision and quality of its manufacture. Those bottomless 15-round magazines could prove to be life savers should you decide to shoot it out with the Crips or invade a small foreign country. My wife is of the opinion that the Beretta is the nicest shooting autoloader around. It has a very good trigger for a DA/SA and the long barrel and sight radius give it adequate accuracy.

Too bad the 92 F is a 9mm. The 9mm is a reasonable defensive round. It will do its part if you do yours, but of course, the same could be said of a .32 caliber pocket gun. Questions have been raised about the "stopping power" of the 9mm and people whose lives depend on their handguns have been migrating away from the 9mm and toward the .40 S&W and .45 ACP in recent years. If I had to shoot someone and I had one shot to do the job, I'd rather that shot be a 230 grain .45 ACP.

My target and competition gun is a Kimber Compact. The question of "inherent accuracy" is the grist of endless debates, but I do believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. I base this on nothing more than my own experience with shooting them. In my hands, .38 and .45 are more accurate rounds than 9mm and .40 S&W. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition. .45 ACP is heavier and more expensive than 9mm, and folks who are particularly recoil sensitive will enjoy the 9mm more than the .45. Last, but not least, 9mm pistols tend to be lighter and more comfortable to carry than 1911s, although some lightweight models of the 1911 are beginning to appear.

Did the Armed Forces make a good choice? Well, I hope so. The M1911 isn't the best gun for a beginner. In an absolute sense, the M9 is probably safer at ready than an M1911, although, in the hands of a trained person, the 1911 is perfectly safe. The additional rounds might also be an advantage to the nominally trained soldier or law enforcement officer possessed of marginal marksmanship. Which one do I like the best? The M1911, of course.

from http://www.sightm1911.com/M1911vsM9.htm

 

[Thrawn]

Did the Armed Forces make a good choice?

Naw, it's just like engines, "no replacement for displacement" :right:

 

[Dallas]

The M9 is a sorry excuse for pistol caliber ammunition standardization.

 

[Gyrene]

In my experience the 1911A1 .45 ACP has it hands down over the M9 9mm (92F). Of the M9's (92F's) that I have fired (maybe 10 to 15 of them), all really torqued my wrist, and were a pain in the wrist to shoot! I am accustomed to shooting 1911A1's in both .45 ACP and 10mm (Delta Elite), and they do not bother me anywhere near as much as the M9's (92F's). I have shot the S&W .500 with 440 grain hard cast bullets (2598 ft lbs of muzzle energy), and while it torqued my wrist it was not a bother.

I have never been a fan of the 9mm, although I have some collectables in 9mm because they have style or panache (9mm Luger Parabellum, Browning High Power, and the like), but I prefer the .45 ACP or the 10mm, because when they hit, they usually do not take NO for an answer, with one shot. The 9mm's have been known to require many hits and still fail.

Which brings to mind the DEA shootout in Miami some years back, when one of the DEA Agents had shot the villan through the heart with his 9mm. In the next 5 minutes the villan succeeded in killing both DEA Agents before he fell over dead from loss of blood. While the 9mm did its job in the end, two DEA Agents fell by the wayside, too. If the villan had been hit by a 230 grain.45 ACP, or a 200 grain 10mm, I will guarantee he would have had the fight taken out of him, and wouldn't have been able to kill the DEA Agents.

It was a sad day when the 1911A1 was taken off the line as the issue combat pistol for our soldiers sailors, airmen, and Marines! Look at the choices of the Army Special Forces, the Navy SEALS, and RECON Marines; the .45 ACP!

 

[Guest]

DEA shootout ? do you mean FBI shootout ?

Concluding the analysis of the FBI's 11 April 1986 Florida firefight
That infamous Friday morning in Florida's Dade County also quickly took on historical significance, for it directly led to the FBI's convening of its first Wound Ballistics Seminar over 15-17 September 1987 to see what direction the Bureau should pursue to more effectively arm its Field Special Agents. In the wake of the tragedy in which agents Grogan and Dove were slain, and five others wounded, John Hall, who 28 months later took over as head of the Bureau's Firearms Training Unit, had made the startling pronouncement, "All else aside, Miami was an ammo failure."

The Weapons Advisory Committee of the FBI Academy had been conducting an evaluation of many semi-auto pistols in both .45 ACP and 9 x 19mm in consideration of issuing them to FBI Field SWAT teams and Special Operations Groups (SOG) such as the Hostage Rescue Team (HRT). In an attempt to resolve the contentious question of caliber selection and substantiate the final selection recommendation, a decision was made to seek "outside expertise to analyze the factors involved in handgun wounding and the relative effectiveness of the two calibers."

And from that Quantico conference emerged the name of Dr. Martin L. Fackler, Colonel, U.S.A., as a major force in the literature of what has regrettably come to be known as "handgun stopping power." With his battle cry of "Penetration is paramount" and his heavy reliance on ordnance gelatin as a test medium, Dr. Fackler and his growing legion of "jello junkies" set up in opposition to the "morgue monsters" led by former Detroit Homicide Detective Evan Marshall, who for years had been publishing after-action reports in various police and popular gunzines, explaining how sundry individuals had reacted to being shot with different handguns, often illustrating his texts with handgun projectiles recovered during post mortem exams.

Aside from the foundation of the Fackler-led International Wound Ballistics Association, and the 1991 publication of an inordinately successful volume by Marshall and Edwin Sanow, "Handgun Stopping Power," the Miami shootout and subsequent Wound Ballistics Seminar paved the way for Hornady's debut of the first of the "designer" handgun rounds, the XTP-HP, whose most pronounced attribute, not coincidentally, was its formidable penetrative abilities.

Although handgun ammunition design has inexorably evolved over the past dozen years, and those who survived the terrible firefight have gotten on with their lives, the event is still of great interest to many in the firearms and law enforcement community, and some elements of that confrontation have taken on near mythic proportions, not the least of which is the remarkable fortitude of SA Edmundo Mireles, Jr. who overcame severe injuries and brought the felons' careers to an irrevocable close.Frequently in discussions, the author has also expressed a grudging awe of the huge "stones" possessed by VERY bad guy Michael Platt, who, mortally wounded early on, single-handedly carried the firefight with the eight FBI agents. I had put forth the notion that had his partner in murder William Matix held up his end of the battle (Matix fired just that ONE round of Winchester-Western 12 gauge #6 without effect from his S&W Model 3000, compared to Platt's 48 rounds from a Mini-14 and two .357 Magnum revolvers), the two murderous thugs would have escaped from the Southwest 82nd Avenue kill zone in the vehicle of slain SAs Grogan and Dove, although Platt, and probably Matix, would have expired shortly thereafter.

David Rivers, supervisor of the crime scene for Metro-Dade Police Department, went one step farther.

"If Matix had done his part," he related in 1987, the details still vivid in his mind, "more FBI would have died, as well as some uniforms" (responding local police).

Many had always been curious about what Matix had been doing during the furious four minute action, reasoning that perhaps it was planned that Platt lay down a field of fire with his folding-stock blue Mini-14 while Matix broke for another vehicle in which they might escape... except that he wound up in the front passenger seat of the Grogan/Dove fleet car, and it was Platt who got behind the wheel.

Hmmmn! Well, maybe Matix, his ear drums (according to the most popular recounting of the event) ruptured by Platt's 13 rapid-fire .223 shots right in front of his face in the enclosed space of their Monte Carlo, in excruciating pain and possibly partially blinded, was so disoriented that he just couldn't function.

However, thanks to Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight, a truly remarkable 128-page volume privately published by W. French Anderson, M.D. and professor of Biochemistry and Pediatrics at the University of Southern California's School of Medicine, some startling new information about that infamous firefight has come to light, not the least of which is just why Matix was unable to hold up his end of the deal. The fifth round of .38 Special +P fired by SSA Gordon McNeill from his 2½-inch S&W Model 19 in the furious exchange hit Matix with a penetrating wound of the right lateral face, fracturing the right maxillary sinus and middle cranial fossa, and causing a contusion of the right temporal lobe.

In Anderson's marvelously detailed narrative, the wound...

"...must have been devastating. It fractured the base of the skull and contused the brain. It should have knocked Matix unconscious. ... It is difficult to comprehend how an individual received this wound, laid unconscious for one or more minutes, and then managed to become sufficiently alert to leave (his vehicle), move around for 1-2 minutes, figure out that Platt had entered Grogan/Dove's car, travel to that car, and get in.... Matix's ability to function with that head wound was extraordinary."
And for the record, the Mini-14 blasts right in front of his unprotected face and ears5 seem to have not influenced Matix's actions in the slightest...

"...despite the fact that Platt fired 13 rounds from his .223 directly in front of Matix's face in essentially a closed car, the concussive effect of these muzzle blasts apparently did not damage Matix's eyes or ears. The corneas of Matix's eyes were intact at autopsy, and the absence of blood in Matix's ear canals suggests that his eardrums were also intact."
A perception that many have held the intervening years is that the eight FBI agents' marksmanship was gravely lacking. Not so, argues Dr. Anderson, and presents a persuasive brief that a number of FBI hits were good ones; they just happened to run up against two highly trained (military police, 101st Airborne and Rangers), well-practiced (approximately 750-1,500 rounds per week which they had purchased or robbed from several unfortunate civilians plinking in the Everglades), and extremely focussed individuals in Platt and Matix. The FBI fired a verified 70 rounds (possibly as many as 77 or 78) and delivered 18 wounds to the bad guys, firing at extremely hostile targets obscured by gunsmoke, considerable amounts of dust and debris from the crashing, careening cars, and the deep shadows of the trees beneath which their vehicle came to rest.

Among those wounds, McNeill hit Matix with that head shot plus a neck/chest shot early on in the fight; Dove delivered that difficult hit as Platt was wriggling from the passenger window of the Monte Carlo, as well as two others; Risner (from 30 yards!) also made a lethal chest wound on Platt in mid-fight; and Mireles, after his shotgun blast had delayed Platt with four 00 foot wounds, had one-handedly put three rounds into Matix's head and two into Platt (one central nervous system, one scalp) all while himself gravely wounded.

An adversary gets hit square in the head with a 158-grain +P, and he isn't stopped, you are having a bad day! McNeill, Mireles and Hanlon had bad days... only Grogan and Dove had worse ones. In light of this information, perhaps John Hall's "ammo failure" assessment has some merit... but then as a war veteran chum with more than three dozen confirmed kills continually asserts, "the more I see of this stuff, the more I'm convinced that nothing hand-held is absolutely reliable."

 

[Guest]

the Great FBI Shootout

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miami: 11 April 1986...
The Ultimate After Action Report!
An unvarnished and illustrated forensic examination
of the FBI's devastating firefight in South Florida
[An abridged version of this report appeared in the August 1999 Handguns and the 1999 Guns & Ammo's Firearms for Law Enforcement.]Outside of the 1963 Kennedy assassination, no 20th Century homicide by gunfire has been more extensively examined and caused more speculation than what has come to be known as the FBI Miami Firefight of 11 April 1986. Indeed, one would have to travel back to October 1881 and the O.K. Corral to find a shootout which has so assumed the mantle of the Epic.

"The repercussions of 11 April 1986 were massive and as far-reaching as any other event in the annals of Law Enforcement..."That event has spawned articles in both gunzines and the popular press, paperbacks, numerous lectures and presentations on the law enforcement circuit, a well-mounted video re-enactment by the Federal Bureau of Investigation aptly entitled "Firefight," a totally dismissable and error-laden segment of the Pernell Roberts-hosted half-hour TV series, "FBI: The Untold Stories," and one shoddy, fanciful two-hour teleflick in NBC's dreadfully revisionist "In the Line of Duty" series, "The F.B.I. Murders", with David Soul and Michael Gross1 as the too-bad-to-be-believed killers, Michael Lee Platt and William Russell Matix, but who were, in reality, "Freddy Kruger" and "Michael Meyers" incarnate, and as despicable a pair of murderers as were ever imagined by producers of the Nightmare on Elm Street and Halloween series of dead teenager splatter flicks.

The repercussions of 11 April 1986 are still being felt, as firearms author Charlie Petty has elsewhere noted2, and that dark event has become the defining moment of the century for handgun ammunition throughout both law enforcement and civilian ranks.

The FBI's C1 (reactive) squad in the Miami field office had been after a pair of savage armored car and bank stick-up artists for six months, and as their criminal acts increased in violence, more FBI man hours were devoted to apprehending them before they robbed and killed again.

In studying the felonious activities of the two well-armed killers, Miami Division Supervisory Special Agent Gordon McNeill and his crime fighters had discerned what they felt was a pattern which might finally give them the ability to close down the vicious duo which had been a two-person crime wave since the October 1985. Acting on their beliefs and information provided by one quick-witted and courageous citizen who'd followed the criminals from the site of a previous robbery and shooting, McNeill put his 14-man rolling stake-out team in ten FBI fleet vehicles3 in the field on that Friday morning and had them working a section of Metro-Dade County along the South Dixie Highway on the alert for a dark-colored 1979 Chevrolet Monte Carlo in which would be riding two white males between the ages of 25 and 40, professional criminals armed with an assortment of weapons which in the past had included shotguns, Colt's/Stoner pattern carbines, long-barreled magnum revolvers and on at least one occasion, a 1911-style .45 ACP pistol.

Sometime after 0900 hours that Friday, Special Agents Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove spotted the suspect vehicle and alerted SSA McNeill that they had surreptitiously slipped behind the black Monte Carlo on the South Dixie Highway. McNeill immediately alerted the rest of his squad that they had their bad guys and gave the coordinates as he, SA Richard Manauzzi in a solo car, SAs Edmundo Mireles and John Hanlon in another vehicle, and SAs Ron Risner and Gil Orrantia in a fifth sedan closed in on the mobile surveillance.

About the time that Manauzzi fell in behind Grogan's and Dove's vehicle with Hanlon and Mireles joining them, Platt and Matix began to get the notion that their game might be up. Using the classic counter-surveillance tactic of making three consecutive right-hand turns in the semi-residential neighborhood of Kendell4, the criminal duo confirmed their suspicions and instead of making a run for it back onto the South Dixie Highway, prepared to live it out with the five FBI agents in low speed pursuit.

At that moment, SSA McNeill arrived on the scene from the opposite direction and passed the "mini-convoy," observing passenger Platt in the lead vehicle loading a high-capacity magazine into a Ruger Mini-14. McNeill would later state that driver Matix's intense demeanor appeared to be that of "a man on a mission."

Still, they were, after all, the FBI, and they already had the bad guys outnumbered six to two, with reinforcements rapidly closing in on the rolling scene. Besides, Grogan and Dove, in the lead pursuit vehicle, were both SWAT-qualified, and Grogan, widely acclaimed as the best shot in the Miami field office, had been, it was later said, preparing his entire law enforcement career for just such a situation as was now developing.

SSA McNeill evaluated the situation and made a judgment call that many have subsequently second-guessed... a felony car stop would be attempted.

It all went horribly wrong from there on in, for when the five vehicles had come to rest one block from the South Dixie Highway behind the Dixie Belle Shopping Center at 12201 SouthWest 82nd Avenue, Ben Grogan's glasses went flying in the impact of the crash, and SAs Manauzzi and Hanlon had lost control and possession of their issue Smith & Wesson revolvers. And as the bad guys both began shooting immediately, never was my colleague Mark Moritz' brilliant aphorism more chillingly brought home: "First Rule of a Gunfight - Have a Gun!"

Manauzzi, who had been driving the vehicle which had finally ridden the Monte Carlo off Southwest 82nd Avenue and into a large tree, his passenger side door just inches from the driver's side of the bad guys' car, was the first of the FBI agents shot, taking a 5.56mm round into his side and body as he dove unarmed out his door and onto the street.

While Platt with the Mini-14 was firing in front of his partner's face at Manauzzi, Matix brought his folding-stocked S&W Model 3000 12 gauge pump shotgun into action, turning and discharging a round of #6 shot at the white Buick to his rear, the vehicle in which Grogan and Dove had been riding.

Grogan, nearly blind without his corrective lenses, had dismounted and begun firing his S&W Model 459, discharging a total of nine rounds of issue 9 X 19mm Winchester 115-grain Silvertip hollow points at the recalcitrant felons inside the Monte Carlo. On the other side of their Buick, Jerry Dove was also shooting his Model 459. He would reload and shoot some more, a total of 20 rounds.

SSA McNeill had taken a position with the left front of his Olds angled into the rear of Manauzzi's vehicle. Managing to throw his (handgun-rated) soft body armor quickly over his suit and tie, he exited his car, leaving his Remington 12 gauge in the back seat. Running over to the front of Manauzzi's car, he immediately went into action with his 2½-inch Model 19, firing across the hood and into the driver's window of the Monte Carlo.

 

[Guest]

Responding to a 1987 inquiry about his "cognitive thought processes during the event," McNeill stated that he had never felt calmer.

I was the calmest I had ever been when I exited my vehicle. I saw everything clearly in my peripheral vision, I did some shooting, I got shot, I bore down and took two more shots. When I realized that I was out of ammo and that it was still going on... then I got scared!
While McNeill was firing across the hood, SAs Mireles and Hanlon left their vehicle which had crashed into a concrete wall on the far side of the street, and rushed to aid their fellow agents under heavy fire. Hanlon, his primary weapon lost, retrieved his backup five-shot J-frame from an ankle holster and went to support Dove. His Model 870 at port arms, Mireles came up behind McNeill just in time to take a .223 round in his left forearm, the shock of which impact toppled the 6'5" agent into the street where he quickly realized that his ruined left arm was all but useless. Platt's round, however, had not reached his chest when it had been aimed.

After McNeill expended his six rounds of .38 Special 158-grain +P, his right hand grievously wounded, he returned to his Olds sedan to reload as Mireles struggled after him. After only managing to get two fresh rounds into his gore-covered revolver, McNeill arose to reach in the back seat for his shotgun, took a .223 round in his neck, and fell over onto his back, paralyzed and out of the remainder of the firefight. He was intensely aware that he had just looked right into the face of Michael Platt and had the murderous thug smile at him as he squeezed off a fast three rounds at McNeill's head!

Platt had extricated himself from the penned in Monte Carlo and was able to move about as he rained fired upon the agents. What he would almost certainly have been unaware of was that he was already a dead man; from a distance of 30 feet, Jerry Dove had delivered a difficult hit on Platt while he was exiting the passenger window of his car. Mireles would later describe it as "a million dollar shot" on the scrambling Platt who had been presented a narrow target profile exposed for such a brief time.
"Platt shot Hanlon in the groin and turned his attentions to Grogan and Dove, shooting the former multiple times in the body and the younger agent twice in the head."
Sometime during the preceding 45 seconds, Risner (another SWAT-qualified SA with an S&W Model 459) and Orrantia with a four-inch S&W K-frame, had rolled on the scene to take up a covering position across the road where they would fire approximately two dozen rounds between them, scoring two hits on the wily Platt from a distance of 30 yards. Orrantia would be wounded in return.

At that point, with McNeill paralyzed and helpless on his back, Mireles fighting the effects of his avulsed forearm, Grogan unable to clearly locate his target without his glasses, and Manauzzi still unarmed after losing control of his revolver from the impact of the improvised felony stop, the mortally wounded Michael Platt made his daring bid for freedom. Exsanguinating from the FBI hits, he slipped from the cover of the Monte Carlo and moved on the position occupied by Dove and Hanlon. The latter saw him coming and fired all five rounds from his backup S&W Model 36 Chief's Special before ducking down to attempt to reload. Before he could accomplish that, Platt was upon them, and stood over the helpless Hanlon with his folding-stocked Mini-14 aimed at his head. Then, changing his mind, Platt shot the FBI agent in the groin and turned his attentions to Grogan and Dove, shooting the former multiple times in the body and the younger SA twice in the head. Both men died on the spot, while Hanlon lay stricken beneath the rear bumper.

Military-trained, Platt having neutralized the more immediate points of hostile fire, then moved toward his ultimate objective, the open driver's door of the vehicle recently occupied by the two Special Agents he had just murdered. SAs Risner and Orrantia 25 yards across the street were now more concerned about hitting their comrades as Platt stepped falteringly among them.

But Ed Mireles by sheer dint of his formidable will had "regrouped," determined that the killer not escape. As Platt entered the FBI's Buick and his partner appeared out of nowhere to slip into the passenger's seat, Mireles carefully supported his Remington 870 on the right rear bumper of McNeill's Olds, and fired a round of 00 Buck at Platt, hitting him in the feet. As the man slumped into the driver's seat and sought to restart the car, Ed deliberately pulled the 12 gauge shotgun down between his thighs in his sitting position and with only one hand, worked the action and rearmed his weapon. Four times Mireles did this, then painfully rolled out and somehow managed to fire at Platt.

Realizing that someone was posing a threat to his escape, a weakened Platt yanked Matix's six-inch Dan Wesson revolver from his partner's shoulder rig, slowly staggered from his victims' vehicle and attempted to neutralize this last point of fire. There is some contention about which agent Platt was firing at, whether it was the incapacitated McNeill or the partially recovered Mireles, but he fired three .357 Magnum rounds at close range.

Miraculously, he missed.

Platt then lurched back to the Buick and flopped down in the front seat, trying to summon enough strength to get the car started and away from the killing field.

Mireles, however, was determined to assure that this was not an option. With great difficulty, he levitated himself from the ground and, discarding his Remington 12-gauge, walked stiff-legged toward the Buick as he withdrew his own S&W revolver and fired two 158-grain +P lead hollow points at Platt, three at Matix curled in a vain attempt to avoid the deadly fire, and a final one at Platt.

Five of the rounds struck home, Matix was killed on the spot, and Platt, the man who didn't die fast enough, died a little faster although he showed enough vital signs some minutes later that the responding EMTs dragged him from the Buick and inserted an endotracheal tube in his mouth, and an intervascular tube in his left arm.

But the firefight, the bloodiest in the FBI's history, was over.

The repercussions, however, were massive and as far-reaching as any other event in the annals of Law Enforcement....

 

[Gyrene]

I have never seen any man hit by a .45 ACP, who could immediately respond with fire. Every one of them has gone to the ground "RIGHT NOW" and most were never able to get back on their feet, and the ones who could were not interested in fighting any more! I have seen men who were never touched by the bullet (it only hit their clothes) get knocked to the ground by a single .45 ACP round.

It is a fact, when the bullets' energy is transferred to the body, you have to get at least knocked around. With over 300 ft lbs of energy, it is like getting hit by Bubba Paris, and you will likely as not go down. The bigger the diameter of the bullet, the better is the chance of transferring the full amount of energy. Expanding bullets help the transfer, but some of the energy is wasted in expanding the bullet (that energy has to come from somewhere).

With their shotguns, they should have stacked their loads with 00 buckshot and slugs. I know several local LEO's that usually shoot 2" to 3" groups with their unrifled slug guns, out to 50 yards. This would have given them the firepower they needed, since the Government decision makers are too stupid to realize they deliberately
"Undergunned" all of our military, and Federal Law enforcement, by taking the .45 ACP away from them. [I know, two shots to the body and one shot to the head, or is it . . .! But the other guy only needs one shot to any part of the body or head with a .45 ACP or 10mm. The question is, "Who is the fastest?"]

I know that there is no way to tell what you will do in a firefight, until it is over, but I have seen many Federal Law Enforcement Officers shoot in preparation for their handgun and rifle qualifications, and with only a few exceptions, I am not surprised that out of the almost 80 FBI shots (more than 70) they only made about 18 hits. Some of the Fed LEO's I have seen must have had help with their previous qualifications, and to top it off many of them know next to nothing about any firearms, DUH! That is a tool of their chosen profession and what might just keep them from getting killed!!!

In a drug bust, one of the Fed LEO's I know hit a bounding pit bull, in the head, with all three of his 9 mm shots, barely dropping it two feet short of the LEO it was attempting to attack (it took the Fed LEO out of duty for a week and about 150 pages of typed response because he killed the dog). With his .308 scoped rifle he can normally hit a 1/2" 10 shot group at 100 yards, and once I called him in to a 12" 10 shot group at 1,000 yards, his 2nd shot was one of the 10 (he fired 11 shots total at 1,000 yards).

 

[dinengurth]

I'm far from an experienced handgunner, but there's a reason that all the special forces, SWAT, FBI's HRT use .45s. It's because they work and it's hard to beat a .45ACP for power, in a semi-auto. As far as the mag capacity concern, Springfield makes a high cap 1911 now, 13 rnds I believe. Even though most PDs use the .40S&W now, but why take the chance of being undergunned, especially knowing that criminals are capable of arming themselves w/ assault weapons. It's not possible due to lack of funding, but I think all LEOs should be armed as well as elite units and undergo similar weapons training.

 

[Gyrene]

dinengurth - You are thinking! Most of the time LEO's, both Federal and Local do not have a choice, and have to take what is offered. Sometimes they get a choice, and then the choice is not always one good one and one bad one; sometimes it is two not so good ones.

In the elite units, sometimes you are stuck with whatever the enemy uses, because the enemy usually does not take notice of one of their weapons firing, but if it is not familiar, then they will check it out, so you use what they use. Most of the time elite units get a choice, and one is usually a good choice.

 

[Guest]

I have never seen any man hit by a .45 ACP, who could immediately respond with fire. Every one of them has gone to the ground "RIGHT NOW" and most were never able to get back on their feet, and the ones who could were not interested in fighting any more! I have seen men who were never touched by the bullet (it only hit their clothes) get knocked to the ground by a single .45 ACP round.

I think that is a very popular myth :hmmm:

 

[Gyrene]

LD - Just reporting what I have seen, not something I was told.

 

[practical]

The Mythbuster guys had a show on this past weekend to test the bullet knocks the guy off his feet tale. It was just that. They fired everything from a 9mm to 12ga at a hanging pig carcass, including full auto fire from several weapons at once. Even when the bullets stopped in the carcass, which most did, the pig barely moved.

I personally like my 1911's for plinking at the range, but 8+1 is a little light for me. For my money, I'd rather have my G20 everytime. 16 x 135gr JHP at 1600fps. More than double the energy of a 45 and plenty leftover to expand the round.

 

[gunssb]

I was once told by an old vet (who had used a 1911 in combat) that if you hit a person anywhere with a subsonic 45 and he still has any fight left in him, RUN, cos he's superman

 

[Gunnie Ed]

i've never fired an 1911, but i have experience with it's cousin, the Hi-power, and the M92.

my father owned both a Milspec M92, and three old Hi-Powers from way back when. one with a wooden pistol stock/ holster, one converted to .22 LR, and the third, a standard issue one, never bothered learing the details, i just like shooting them.

anyway, my father has had a crate of norinco 125 gr FMJ bullets for as long as i can remember. one day, i decided to compare the two. so i talked my father into taking both pistols to the range. we brought two magazines and about a hundred rounds for each.

first i went with the Hi-Power, as it's my favorite. i loaded it, pulled the slide back, took aim, and fired. i wasn't really trying to hit anything, i just wanted to decide which was a better functioning weapon. two full capacity magazines we emptied at a compfortable rate, the grip fit easily in my large hands, the recoil was controllable, and it fired a whole box of fifty rounds, without fail.

i set the gun down and picked up the beretta.

the first thing i noticed, is that even though both guns have double stack magazines, the M92 is uncompfortable to hold. i mean it's thick. rather awkward to hold. the second thing i noticed was the trigger. when uncocked it's rediculously stiff, and when cocked it's rediculously "squishy," by that i mean, the trigger has little to no resistance, i squeezed the trigger steadily, expecting some resistance, but only meeting a little a moment before the thing went off. it was like flipping a light switch. i was almost caught off guard. and if i was unused to guns, i probably would have. the recoil wasn't anything worthy of note. so, i went to fire again, trigger squeeze, hammer down, and nothing. i examined the gun, and realised that the next round fed impropperly, and the slide hadn't locked. i corrected this by pushing the silde closed, and decided to fire from the uncocked position. it took an unessisary amount of pressure to pull the trigger, and it was nowhere near as "crisp" as the Hi-Power. this time it fired easily. i went through the rest of the fifty rounds, and the gun misfired every other shot.
after it was done, i fired the rest of the ammo from the Hi-Power. it didn't have a single misfire.

every time i talk about it, people tell me "it was the shoddy after market magazines. the M92 isn't designed to jam."

if it's not designed to jam, then why does it jam? the simple fact that it'll misfire due to certain components means that the thing is too unreliable. i mean, it may be the best, most accurate gun in the world, but if it jams due to problematic magazines, then it's worthless in my eyes.

francly, i see the need for a 9mm pistol in the arsenal, but they could have, and should have, done better than the M92.

 

[Guest]

I still think it is a very popular myth...I don't believe everything I read on the internet..not calling you a liar Gyrene..

 

[gunssb]

I still think it is a very popular myth...I don't believe everything I read on the internet..not calling you a liar Gyrene..

care to volunteer for the sake of science ? :hmmm:

 

[colt45]

I still think it is a very popular myth...I don't believe everything I read on the internet..not calling you a liar Gyrene..

well speaking on ONLY my personal encounters i have seen men and woman shot with both a 45 and a 9mm. i only saw one that didn't go to the ground from the 45 might have been the shock of being hit might have been the bullet energy don't know never asked them. i have on the other hand personaly pumped ten rounds of 9mm into an on coming man with a knife. all but one was in the chest the one being in the head. that was the one that stoped him and that was at less than two feet. btw he was still standing for what seemed like forever before he fell. a very nerve wracking ordeal. i have never carried a 9mm since nor will i ever again. my dealing with the 9mm is that it does have plenty enough energy to kill but not enough consistant penatration. i have never had that problem with a 45. and before you ask i'm not gona talk about how many i have shot with either so lets not go there. lets just say i have enough personal data to say that a 9mm is not something i will ever trust for anything other than point blank range back up only. it is however a nice shooting target round, since my accident i have switched to it in a competion glock instead of the 45 i was shooting and i honestly like it. i like my 22 also but wouldn't count on it for stopping power in a combat sit. even though it can also kill cleanly and effectively.

ok, LD i know your gona take a shot or two at this, but i'm going on what i have personaly seen and or done. so you can class this as a myth or bull or what ever. i know i won't blame you for what ever you class it as. and i also know you know have a 45 lets hope you never have to test this stuff ourself.

 

[Thrawn]

I don't belive it's the actual bullet knocking people to the ground, It's the intense pain, gaping blood spurting wound, crushed bone and damaged organs that sends baddies to the earth. A larger ball will transfer more energy than a smaller one. I was shooting at a steel tank a few weeks ago (A little thicker than 1/8) My 9mm Helwan was making nice clean holes in it but my 1911 was'nt penetrating. My .45 was, however, distorting a area about 3 inches wide and was puhing it inwards about two inches.

 

[Guest]

A perception that many have held the intervening years is that the eight FBI agents' marksmanship was gravely lacking. Not so, argues Dr. Anderson, and presents a persuasive brief that a number of FBI hits were good ones; they just happened to run up against two highly trained (military police, 101st Airborne and Rangers), well-practiced (approximately 750-1,500 rounds per week which they had purchased or robbed from several unfortunate civilians plinking in the Everglades), and extremely focussed individuals in Platt and Matix. The FBI fired a verified 70 rounds (possibly as many as 77 or 78) and delivered 18 wounds to the bad guys, firing at extremely hostile targets obscured by gunsmoke, considerable amounts of dust and debris from the crashing, careening cars, and the deep shadows of the trees beneath which their vehicle came to rest.

Among those wounds, McNeill hit Matix with that head shot plus a neck/chest shot early on in the fight; Dove delivered that difficult hit as Platt was wriggling from the passenger window of the Monte Carlo, as well as two others; Risner (from 30 yards!) also made a lethal chest wound on Platt in mid-fight; and Mireles, after his shotgun blast had delayed Platt with four 00 foot wounds, had one-handedly put three rounds into Matix's head and two into Platt (one central nervous system, one scalp) all while himself gravely wounded.

An adversary gets hit square in the head with a 158-grain +P, and he isn't stopped, you are having a bad day! McNeill, Mireles and Hanlon had bad days... only Grogan and Dove had worse ones. In light of this information, perhaps John Hall's "ammo failure" assessment has some merit... but then as a war veteran chum with more than three dozen confirmed kills continually asserts, "the more I see of this stuff, the more I'm convinced that nothing hand-held is absolutely reliable."

sounds like they had something in common with your bad guy Gyrene