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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i'm working on a case at school involving this handgun. It's all hypothetical, so no one was injured in the creation of this fact pattern.

Briefly, the facts: to people with a history of dating/friendship are in a resturant, and they begin to argue, and (according to my client) the other party, reached for the gun, pulled it out of his waistband. He knocked it out of her hand, it went into the air, and in the process of catching it, he shot it twice, and hit her both times.

She is dead. He is charged with Murder-1 (and the DA won't plead it down).

This is what we know about the gun: it is a Mauser-Werke HSc, .32 calibre/7.65mm.

Several questions:
1. Is this gun actually automatic in the truest sense of the word, or is it semi-automatic? Our professor insists on calling it an automatic and won't answer whether or not it's semi-automatic, automatic, or otherwise.
2. The trigger pressure is listed at "a 6 lb. pull." Can someone describe that to me in terms of light, heavy, who should be handling this type of weapon?
3. When were these guns last produced? We don't have anything in our fact pattern to identify it as a new gun, a collector's item, etc.

If y'all have any more information concerning this gun, things about this gun, the temperment of this gun, please share it. I appreciate the replies! I hope everyone has a great Wednesday!

Toro:usaribbon:
 

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i'm working on a case at school involving this handgun. It's all hypothetical, so no one was injured in the creation of this fact pattern.
Briefly, the facts: to people with a history of dating/friendship are in a resturant, and they begin to argue, and (according to my client) the other party, reached for the gun, pulled it out of his waistband. He knocked it out of her hand, it went into the air, and in the process of catching it, he shot it twice, and hit her both times.
She is dead. He is charged with Murder-1 (and the DA won't plead it down).
This is what we know about the gun: it is a Mauser-Werke HSc, .32 calibre/7.65mm.
Several questions:
1. Is this gun actually automatic in the truest sense of the word, or is it semi-automatic? Our professor insists on calling it an automatic and won't answer whether or not it's semi-automatic, automatic, or otherwise.
2. The trigger pressure is listed at "a 6 lb. pull." Can someone describe that to me in terms of light, heavy, who should be handling this type of weapon?
3. When were these guns last produced? We don't have anything in our fact pattern to identify it as a new gun, a collector's item, etc.
If y'all have any more information concerning this gun, things about this gun, the temperment of this gun, please share it. I appreciate the replies! I hope everyone has a great Wednesday!
Toro:usaribbon:
#1..This gun Is Semi-automatic
#2..6 lb. trigger pull is Medium weight, not easily fired.Anyone should be able to handle this weapon.
#3..Depends on model, as they were produced from WW2 until 1981 if German Mfg. Marked.Italian Copies were made from 1983-1996.
This gun would have had to been Carried in a ready to fire (Unsafe Mode)
for what you describe to happen. When you insert a loaded magazine and Chamber a round of ammo, it is ready to fire. If you place the gun on "SAFE" it automatically De-Cocks the internal Hammer. To fire, you must then push the safety off and then squeeze the trigger to cock and fire the weapon which should take more than 6 lbs of trigger pull...
Rich
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you, Moose.

I appreciate it! That's far more information that I had before.

We are trying to get the "DA" in the case to reduce it to a gun charge. And the "defendant" is a police officer with an exemplary record. I'll keep y'all posted.

Again, thank you.

God Bless,
Toro:usaribbon:
 

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The reason the DA won't plead it down is that your client is lying and if he sticks to his story the prosecution will destroy him. That particular gun has a decocker rather than a safety. No one would carry it in his pants cocked and ready to fire. The prosecution is setting you up in that they have reveled the trigger weight which would be reasonable in a scenario such as your client is claiming. They are also hoping you will fall for the "full auto" trap which makes his story sound feasible.

They intend to let him dig himself in and then bring in a rebuttal wittiness (expert) who will:
#1 convince the jury that no one would carry the handgun in a ready to fire condition when it can be fired double action. And in his waist band no less:196:
#2 show that it is virtually impossible to accidentally fire the gun double action because the trigger pull is ???. Much heavier than the 6lb single action pull that you convinced the jury was possible.
#3 If you fall for the full auto tick, he will explain that the gun is "auto-loading" not automatic and your client had to pull the trigger a second time.

Get your client to cop to what really happened and try to get him off on 2nd degree since it was in the heat of the moment and not premeditated.

OR Knowing what the prosecution is planning try to convince the jury that your client is so ignorant about firearms that he thought the decocker was a safety. When every time he tried to engage it, the hammer dropped, he thought it was defective and left it cocked. You still have the problem of him keeping a cocked gun in his pants but maybe you can say that because he thought it was defective he intended to leave the chamber empty and cycle the action by hand if he needed it. Inexperienced as he is, somehow he got a round in the chamber anyway. Oh hell! go for the 2nd degree.

OK, I just saw the last post. So maybe an exemplery police officer that knows nothing about guns except the Glock issued to him. If his isue gun is s SIG you are done becaues it's a decocker.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Again, thank you. I'm sitting in another class, passing this information along to my co-counsel, and she's in a panic. He wants him to walk scot-free. And I'm convinced that it's not going to happen. If we get a better offer than a needle, I'd like to take it. We'll see what happens.

Good words, BPierce, much appreciated.
 

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It could work

I am thinking again and that's dangerous. IF your client's issue weapon is a Glock and he really does not have any firearm experience beyond training in that weapon you might make it work. He is still lying but with the general lack of firearm knowledge, you might have a chance at a hung jury.

This is all dependent on the rather unconventional trigger on a Golck. If your client thought a Glock was the way semi-auto pistols work his "confusion" with the decocker could be made (by you) to look understandable. As I said if his issue weapon is a Sig, forget it. Even other sa/da pistols and most double action only pistols will be hard to make work but your own "expert" with the defendent's Glock in hand could easily create enough doubt in some jurors minds.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to let the DA know that you are aware of what he is up to and subpoena the defendant's Glock letting the DA know how confused the jurors will be. That should get him to consider a plea.
 

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The Mauser HSc is a military semi-automatic pistol. Full-auto versions were never made.

The Mauser HSc can be fired with the hammer cocked back. or with the hammer down. In this way it is similiar to many police revolvers of the 20th century.

I have fired a WWII-era Mauser HSc. In the real world, a HSc with the hammer cocked will take about 6 lbs. of trigger pressure to fire. With the hammer down it takes about 15 lbs of pressure. (For reference, a common bolt-action .22 rifle has about a 4 lb. trigger pull)

A Mauser HSc will jam if you don't hold it firmly in your hand when you fire. One shot only, then a jam. Guaranteed. No way were two shots fired while the gun was not held firmly.

Hope this helps.
 

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He took a concealed (stuck in his waistband) weapon to a meeting with his girlfriend. The gun can't accidentally fire twice with no finger on the trigger (unlikely to fire the first time).

What are the chances that the second shot would hit her again after the recoil of the first when it is freewheeling through the air?

Tell your client to be a man, do the honorable thing and beg for punishment. He killed her, he meant to kill her, and then he was enough of a dog that he tried to say it was an accident.

Your cop client's hypothetical name isn't Bobby Cutts, is it?

This is my problem with our legal system. It's still based on the dark ages' system of "might makes right". Two knights jousting, God makes the right one win by giving him more strength. 900 years is long enough to have had this for a court system, we need to find a legal system that doesn't emulate the trial by combat of the middle ages.

My son was involved with this same case, and some earlier ones. In my view, if you know even this much about firearms, you'll slam the prosecution. Most of the people involved in these court cases don't know anything about firearms or ballistics. I'm willing to bet that your professor wouldn't tell you whether it was auto or semi-auto because he himself didn't know that there was a difference, let alone what the difference was.

By the way, this isn't an easy gun to find. We had to go to the Tulsa Gunshow to find one, and that took most of the day to do so among the thousands of guns being sold. We found one for about $250 and another that was actually named in one of the reference books on the Mauser-Wercke and they wanted over $1700 for it. I don't know if any of this will help, but it is research that we did for this same case.
 

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He took a concealed (stuck in his waistband) weapon to a meeting with his girlfriend. The gun can't accidentally fire twice with no finger on the trigger (unlikely to fire the first time).

What are the chances that the second shot would hit her again after the recoil of the first when it is freewheeling through the air?

Tell your client to be a man, do the honorable thing and beg for punishment. He killed her, he meant to kill her, and then he was enough of a dog that he tried to say it was an accident.

Your cop client's hypothetical name isn't Bobby Cutts, is it?

This is my problem with our legal system. It's still based on the dark ages' system of "might makes right". Two knights jousting, God makes the right one win by giving him more strength. 900 years is long enough to have had this for a court system, we need to find a legal system that doesn't emulate the trial by combat of the middle ages.

My son was involved with this same case, and some earlier ones. In my view, if you know even this much about firearms, you'll slam the prosecution. Most of the people involved in these court cases don't know anything about firearms or ballistics. I'm willing to bet that your professor wouldn't tell you whether it was auto or semi-auto because he himself didn't know that there was a difference, let alone what the difference was.

By the way, this isn't an easy gun to find. We had to go to the Tulsa Gunshow to find one, and that took most of the day to do so among the thousands of guns being sold. We found one for about $250 and another that was actually named in one of the reference books on the Mauser-Wercke and they wanted over $1700 for it. I don't know if any of this will help, but it is research that we did for this same case.
 

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wow you got a big problem here ,he knocked the gun into the air then cought it and it shoot her 2 times, give me a brake i own a 380 mauser-werke hsc
the trigger is not that easy to pull plus he just happened to get his finger on the trigger as he cought the gun as it was pointed right at her and went off hitting 2 times, come on now never could have happened that way ,no wonder the da wont make a deal he has a winner ,racer300
 

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i'm working on a case at school involving this handgun. It's all hypothetical, so no one was injured in the creation of this fact pattern.

Briefly, the facts: to people with a history of dating/friendship are in a resturant, and they begin to argue, and (according to my client) the other party, reached for the gun, pulled it out of his waistband. He knocked it out of her hand, it went into the air, and in the process of catching it, he shot it twice, and hit her both times.

She is dead. He is charged with Murder-1 (and the DA won't plead it down).

This is what we know about the gun: it is a Mauser-Werke HSc, .32 calibre/7.65mm.

Several questions:
1. Is this gun actually automatic in the truest sense of the word, or is it semi-automatic? Our professor insists on calling it an automatic and won't answer whether or not it's semi-automatic, automatic, or otherwise.
2. The trigger pressure is listed at "a 6 lb. pull." Can someone describe that to me in terms of light, heavy, who should be handling this type of weapon?
3. When were these guns last produced? We don't have anything in our fact pattern to identify it as a new gun, a collector's item, etc.

If y'all have any more information concerning this gun, things about this gun, the temperment of this gun, please share it. I appreciate the replies! I hope everyone has a great Wednesday!

Toro:usaribbon:
1) its a semi-automatic

2) relates to the amount of force needed to pull the trigger, think of tying a 6 lb string to your index finger and pulling it

its basically 6lbs of resistance, and honestly not that bad, a little much possibly but to strong, anyone should be able to

3)those are some old guns

heres more info

Modern Firearms - Handguns - Mauser HSc
 

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There's a lot of pure speculation going on here and, IMO, there's no way in he ll that you can convict a guy via the internet just from hearing the circumstances second or third-hand. I'm not saying the guy is innocent, but you guys are already strapping him to the gurney when none of us were there to witness the incident. As someone with 30+ years of mechanical background, I'll argue to the death that ANYTHING mechanical can defy its' engineering design specs in the worst possible circumstances. If he was trying to catch a gun in mid-air, it's very possible that the safety was off and he pulled the trigger twice while trying to regain control of it. Either way, it's a tragedy that should not have happened...
 

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Originally Posted by Mimosa Toro
i'm working on a case at school involving this handgun. It's all hypothetical, so no one was injured :34:
 

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still working on the case

I've got the same assignment as the original poster, and glad to be the prosecutor-- except that from the sound of it, if I lose, I'll have no one to blame but myself. That is unless they throw a curveball that's not in the facts as presented.

As I understand it, a six pound pull is like carrying a two-liter coke bottle in a bag by one finger-- you can do it, but not really by accident?

The gun itself weighs about a pound? So even if you caught it just right, the weight of the gun would not be enough to pull the trigger?

It's semi-automatic so two shots requires pulling the trigger twice?
 

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I've got the same assignment as the original poster, and glad to be the prosecutor-- except that from the sound of it, if I lose, I'll have no one to blame but myself. That is unless they throw a curveball that's not in the facts as presented.

As I understand it, a six pound pull is like carrying a two-liter coke bottle in a bag by one finger-- you can do it, but not really by accident?

The gun itself weighs about a pound? So even if you caught it just right, the weight of the gun would not be enough to pull the trigger?

It's semi-automatic so two shots requires pulling the trigger twice?
All of this is pretty well correct, EXCEPT...there is a very important chemical involved called adrenaline. As an avid hunter, I can tell you now that a 6 lb. trigger isn't even noticeable under stress. AND, when a gun fires unexpectedly, the stress level ratchets even higher instantly. There are hundreds of cases of shooting defendants who have no recollection at all of pulling the trigger. This is not always deception, it's a well-documented fact, much like the folks filmed weaving all over the road while talking on a cell-phone who thought they were driving just fine.
 

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One shot would have been believable...twice stretches things quite a bit, with that particular weapon.

Of course, knowing the angles the bullets struck the corpse would be helpful ;)

If say, one was downwards into the lower abdomen, and the other an upwards shot into the brain...it would be consistant with a spinning weapon...just not THAT weapon...UNLESS the weapon had been modified somewhat...something you would need a competent armourer/gunsmith to check out.

There was a local shooting recently when a gun owner shot himself in the stomach with his own gun when he dropped it on the ground...but it was a GLOCK, so folks though that a normal Glock wouldn't do that...and they were right, he had the weapon MODIFIED for Race Class shooting...and his safeties were disabled (a dumb move anywhere) so that when he did a quick-draw and the gun slipped from his hands, it naturally fired when it hit the ground, going upwards into his abdomen. Classify him as an Almost-Darwin-Award winner...he survived :)
 

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I look at it simply like this... either the gun Malfunctioned or the Guy Malfunctioned. The gun could have slamfired...Firing twice , The guy could have accidently Bump fired it while trying to get control of it , firing it twice, or it could have been deliberate...2 shots...
Were there any Defensive wounds on the girl like thru her Hands ?
Were her hands checked for gunshot residue? ( if she grabbed at the gun?)
Were the Bullet wounds close together ? ( that would show proof of aiming and intentional firing...)
Interesting to say the least...

Rich
 
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