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Should people carry a mouse gun?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 70.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • As a second gun

    Votes: 11 36.7%
  • If that is all they are willing to carry

    Votes: 9 30.0%
  • If they have recoil issues or other problems with shooting

    Votes: 7 23.3%
  • Never, never, never

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The point of this post is to raise awareness of how many dangerous people are walking side by side with us, every day in every town in the US, which is not as safe as we think. Here is link of a guy who punched a lady for not giving up her seat on a bus. My nearby small town police blotter shows several incidents of of violence every week. My thought is we need to alert the ladies and the little people to the risk they face, bad guys hurt big guys too, just not very often. One of my degrees in a masters in criminal justice where I studied why bad guys are bad. Really? You need to study that? Like the guy who punched the lady, some people are just a POS. And the increase in meth and fentanyl and other drugs is a never ending risk. I have faught those guys on PCP, and that super human strength deal is real. Anyway, some thoughts about why mouse guns are appropriate and the reason is because my petite wife is not gong to carry a 1911 or 357 mag, her Ruger LC9s sometimes maybe, but if properly aware maybe, just maybe her 380 will be within reach when that time comes. Comments and observations.?

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/man-punches-pregnant-woman-she-164222661.html

As Vlad Putin kills babies and little kids and innocent people every day, I keep reading about old ladies and young kids being killed by pit bull dogs and other dogs and getting mugged and robbed right here at home. Something wrong with that picture. This link says a guy punched a lady for not giving him her seat on the bus. What would we do if we are standing there? Just watch and go home and tell everybody about what a jerk he was? And if he kept punching her how many punches before we intervened? I can only recall one time when I was close to a deal like that, and I caught the guy as he launched a round house punch and took him to the ground, it was pretty easy, he did not know I was in the fight, until he was on the ground, then he changed his mind about hitting people, but I was 3 decades younger.......

And then I think back to 1977, I was a federal investigator and assigned to a new post in Oklahoma. The district secretary was the sweetest lady on the planet and treated the new kid on the block like he was her own son. Everybody loved her. But while she was so kind and sweet, she had another story. Every year, her husband and 2 kids would go to south Padre Island, Texas for the week of Christmas. Then it ended. Because while they were gone, her mother, age 69, was brutally raped and tied to a chair and left to die. And she did, in a few days. So, the family came home and called grandma and when no answer came made a bad dash to central Oklahoma, where they round her 4 day old corpse tied to a chair. I always wondered how she could be so kind and sweet when she had just gone through that not long before.

And 1978, was a bad year in Oklahoma. I had the honor being assigned as an agent on a second agency to work on the Roger Dale Stafford case. Roger and his wife Verna and his POS brother herded 6 people inside a Sirloin Stockade and murdered them. They drove down Interstate 35 about 40 miles and had Verna stand out by the car with the hood up while he and his POS brother hid in the dark. Sgt Lorenz and his wife and kid were headed back to Randolph AFB, in San Antonio. Both adults were shot as the 12 year old son in the camper on back watched, then they opened it and killed him also. They say Roger and crew killed 34 people. I met and interviewed the father of the 15 year old girl, who was murdered in that walk-in locker. How do you interview a father after a deal like that? About that death penalty? It works.

Roger Dale Stafford - Wikipedia

Just a few years later, I had an argument with a guy about a used car I had for sale. I refused to sell him the car with him giving me a personal check, he went postal on me. I was an experienced law enforcement offer by 1986, had put lots of bad guys in jail, and here I was unarmed letting some stranger test drive the car we had for sale, and he was in my face. He seemed strange, so I went back inside and dropped my 5 shot J frame in the pocket, went back out and told him there was no deal but I would be happy to meet him at his bank and do a cash deal or whatever. He cussed a while and then left. A few months later, my wife yelled at me to come watch the news. That guy made the new s, national news. That guy was Patrick Sherill, the guy who killed 15 people inside the post office on August 20, 1986, not 50 miles away and a couple months later. And the story gets worse, a guy that worked for me, his wife was one of the 15.

Edmond post office shooting - Wikipedia

Now my wife is just past that 69 and we live an a semi rural place. Love the wildlife and the fact we can sit out and not hear cars and screams of kids and noisy people, but when I am gone, anybody can drop by. Did I mention we live on a dead end.? And then I have medical issue, so sometimes she goes an hour or two north or south to see the grand kids and great grand kids and I am not there. And once in a while I go off with the guys and kill a deer, 5 hours away. And one of these days, pretty soon, I will not be here at all.

So, having been in military and civilian law enforcement local, state, federal and military, I have met some nice thugs and some bad thugs, and know there are lots of them out there. This incident of some jerk punching a lady is now pretty common. That jerk will punch anther lady or child or do other violence. There are other officers on this site, am I wrong? I have been retired over 2 decades, so maybe bad guys only do one bad thing now?

Anyway. my point is we need to raise the awareness and promote training people to use firearms and to have them. I am not going to convince any non gun person to carry a large gun. But if I can convince people to learn how to shoot and when to carry the gun, at least they have a chance. And the place to start in my view is something they will actually carry. I have several 380s and my plan is to give them away. Don't ask I already have a list.

Anyway, just food for thought. Most of us will never meet these truly bad ones, but they are in the parking lot at Walmart when we are there, and we walk pas them every day. FWIW
;
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Both posts are well said. RFF, you put it better than I know I could.
Don't know if I can say it better than anyone else, just sitting here reflecting on how many bullies there are in the world. And we walk past them every single day. And sometimes they will punch a lady just for a seat on bus. What kind of krap is that?

I am thinking that those of us with a law enforcement background and know how close we are to the bad guys, really should be more involved in teaching not only basic gun stuff but common sense awareness. As Outpost says never leave your club in the truck. And as GW says, that 25 in the hand, is well, in the hand and ready to go.

And if every lady on every bus had a gun in her purse, there would not be a lot of guys punching ladies on buses.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I carry at home, both in the house and when working in the yard. When I lived in Northern Virginia near the I495 beltway a neighbor was murdered during a push-in robbery gone bad. Her S&W 642 was in her purse nearby, but was stolen and used in two other robberies until he picked an off duty police officer's townhouse to break into and she shot him dead in the front hall.
Northern VA is too darn close to DC and Maryland. I was stationed there or TDY several times. During Desert Storm I was sent to DC, actually to the DIA training center which is on Bolling Air Force base. I actually stayed in northern VA, down by Fort Belvoir. The night I got there it was late, so I checked into a motel and went to get something to eat. I found a mexican place, Chi Chis that appeared to be open late so I stopped. . I had driven from USCENTCOM at McDill AFB at Tampa, Florida, a long drive and I was tired. As I tried to enter they locked the door and told me to go away. Made me angry but not much I could do so I got stuff at McDonalds and wet to the motel. I flipped on the TV and guess what. That place was being robbed. by 4 guys, three with shotguns.

So, I went to McDonalds and went back to the motel, flipped on the TV and there it was. LOL I may or may not have had a 5 shot 38 in my pocket. Lucky day for me.




Gunmen rob late diners at Chi-Chi's – Baltimore Sun

Feb 15, 1991 · Baltimore Sun Feb 15, 1991 at 12:00 am Four gunmen, three with sawed-off shotguns, burst into a Mexican restaurant in Timonium last night and robbed 27 employees and............................
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I didn't get a permit to carry until I retired because I drove a company vehicle, even on personal business, so I was either on customer property or company property almost 24/7. When I was on my property, didn't need no stinkin' permit & not concerned about concealing it. :)

Being retired, I could dress anyway I pleased & opted to dress for concealed carry, so size isn't a big issue & I can carry 2 if I wish.. The closest thing to a mouse gun that I've purchased was a PF9 Keltec, about 12 oz. Decided I didn't care too much for pocket carry, as slow to get to & almost impossible when seated. I also hated the felt recoil & didn't like shooting it. Figured I should carry something that I didn't mind practicing with.
I th
I carry a PF9 Keltec 90% of the time. It is 12.7 ounces without ammo and about 15 ounces with 8 rounds in it. My Airweight model 637 is nearly 17 ounces loaded. I am told it is still the lightest 9mm made, I have four 380s that are smaller but they are 380s. In the short 380s all that fancy $2 per round ammo is lucky to get 160 foot pounds,the Keltec with hot 9mms can get over 300 , about twice, so my Keltec 9mm Pf9 has about 2,400 pounds of power in it and my similar 380 with only 7 rounds has about 1,140 foot pounds. Which is better?

All depends on your likely threat and what you want to prepare for. The poingt of this thread was to remind folks that too many little ladiies or other have zero protection handy at home and even none away from home. They make a strategic choice to be near;y helpless every day. My thought is if they had a mouse gun, something very small and causing no real work to carry, then the might carry.

Some days I opt for a 357, or a 45 or 44 or other round. When I leave home, I take a bigger gun, usually a Glock 19 or o her high capacity, Except on rare occasions when travelling I do not want anyone to have a clue, I am armed, then i carry the tiny 380. The average day, I have a big gun and a little one when I leave home. Some days the little one is a 380, other days the little one is the 9mm.

Just trying to suggest that we might want to make others safer by convincing them to carry a tiny gun if they otherwise would carry none at all.

I have this theory. If every adult person in the US carried a 5 shot 38 and no spare ammo, that the crime rate for all crimes would drop my 90%. What I do kow for sure is that most victims are not armed at the time of the murder, assault or rape. That I do know. My point is not everybody will be armed but minimally armed would change the world, at least where we live.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
ANY gun is better than NO gun.
Yes. I like Gray Wolf's post #4. Nobody wants to get shot 4-5 times in the face with a 25 acp. The first homicide I every worked was a guy shot with a $49 RG 22 pistol, the shot was to the temple. The ME said he lived 10 seconds at most. I once backed down a big boxer dog with one shot from the little 5 shot NAA pistol in 22 mag, the blast and dirt kicked up in his face did the trick. He went away, I went my way, nobody got hurt and I did not have to shoot a dog, not much worse than having to kill a dog. I have done that twice in a dog attack, the other one was a 357 mag put between his front legs. He left too. Without a gun, I would prolly have been bit both times.

I have heard of people including police officers who painted the front of their barrel white so anyone in front of it could see the size of the hole in the barrel. I have no problem with that. Seems to me that is a last ditch "fair warning" to anyone who is contemplating violence to the person with the gun. In fact, I have some luminous paint in my little kit where I build fishing lures. Think I will paint the front of one gun and see how it looks. Whatever works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I have given my two daughters mouse guns. The youngest daughter, I gave my most reliable handgun I’ve ever owned, believe it or not it was a Bersa Thunder + holding 15 rounds in a easy to conceal platform. My oldest daughter I gave my Ruger LC9 after her marriage took on a “physical” aspect.

I plan on replacing both, as at one time each was my primary carry gun and I would recommend either as they were utterly dependable.
The Bersa Thunder was my wife's daily carry until the arthritis in her hand/wrist got worse & it hurt to shoot it, even to rack the slide. She tried the P938 Sig, but recoil was too much & she settled on the P238. The Thunder Plus is one of the 3 that I alternate with my P938 & 1911.
I am not sure that I would call a gun with 15 rounds of 380 a mouse gun. I once worked on a drug task force with a local police officer that carried a Beretta Cheetah. One of the issues of working under cover is you are pretty stupid to carry the same gun as local police, because that made you look like a cop, at least until Glocks came along, then Glocks became the gun of choice for thugs and gangs and still is. I once said something to another officer in his department, something dumb, like I hope he is not my back up if things go south. The other narc who carried a nickel 1911 45 laughed a belly laugh. He said, have you seen him shoot? Well, no, he said not to worry, nobody is as accurate or fast as he is. So, felt pretty silly. I later carried a Walther PPK/s in harms way many times, just about your ability and confidence level.

The Ruger LC9 is also not a mouse gun, I assume you mean the one in 9mm although they made one in 380 also. The stiker model, the LC9s is an excellent carry gun. We compared the single stack 9s a few years ago, the Ruger LC9s had the best trigger of the bunch. I think they come from the factory at 4.5 pounds. Great little guns, I like it so well, I bought one for my wife.
 
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I have two KelTec P-32s, one is the early model and minimalist sights and the second is the latest type with "better" sights than the 1st gen. I am a fan of the .32 because it is thin and in the FMJ it will penetrate..That stated one problem with the KelTec is the magazine, it is designed for FMJ only, anyone who carries it with Silvertips risks developing a fight ending issue called rim-lock. Since the .32ACP is semi-rimmed there is a very distinct possibility that in a "long" magazine that the rims can become locked. This is not possible in some .32ACP pistols that had "short" magazines for the .32Silvertip type ammo only such as the Seecamp. I wish that KelTec would make a magazine that would allow the use of .32ACP hollow points without the risk of rimlock; it could be done in a couple of ways. They could alter the front of the magazine so that it could only feed HP, or they could alter the rear of the magazine so that it would not allow rimlock to happen. The latter is the best alternative as I like FMJ, but others want HP..
The Seacamp is a great idea but has zero sights so it is truly a belly gun. And as you say the magazine is short, it will not cycle any regular ball ammo. Mine will only feed Corbon and Silvertips. I carried it in a front pocket in law enforcement for a get off me gun but never had the need to use it. I did have a problem with a huge armadillo digging under my hot tub, I sprayed water on him, threw rocks at him and shot him 3-4 times with a BB gun to gun him off, but he was aggressive, you have to picture that. My wife thought it was hillarious an armadillo chasing me around the yard, never heard of one doing that. Finally, I shot him in the center with a Silver Tip, he continued to chase me, so I shot him again, both shots under 4 feet, he ran off and died.

I am no longer a fan of the 32 acp Silvertip. It really did not do much damage on the armadillo. Just my experience. I do like the Keltec, 6 ounces, you can put those in a cigarette pack and they shoot great. Keltec invented the tiny 380s, everybody else just copied them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Does the sp101 snub in 357 count as a mouse gun? Never felt underpowered
No. A ruger sp 101 is not a mouse gun. It is a real gun. I do not have one but I do have a 3 inch model 60 SW, which is 24 ounces. I love it but when you fire it the mere fireball tells you and everyone within about 50 meters it is not a mouse gun.

My background is military and law enforcement. A 5 shot SW model 36 or 60 or Charter Arms Undercover was a pocket or backup gun. Any smaller caliber was a mouse gun, 22, 25,32, 380, the derringers and such. The 380 graduated with ammo improvements along the way. I do not consider a 380 with 10 or more rounds much of a mouse gun anymore, but that is just me.

Just Google "mouse guns" and you get lots. They even show the Walther PPK/s 380 a mouse gun. Mouse Pistols - Bing images

If you Google something like the "best mouse guns" you get lists, I own most of them. Many say the Seecamp is the very best. Not even close. I carried mine for a decade until the plastic 380 came along. The Seecamp has no sights, none. The pattern is like a basketball at 10 feet. They are a work of precision machinery. Everyone should add one to their collection. I had a problem with mine and personally dealt with the owner, the son now. Great guy and great customer service, one phone call and parts in the mail.

The NAA 22 magnum is high on the list. Sorry not even close, love mine but again the pattern is like a basketball if you need to fire fast. They do make a great third gun if you have an empty pocket. And take up no space or weight.

Lots of them include the baby browning in 25 great gun carried one and very accurate, but it is a 25, shoot something with it. They all list the Berretta 21 with the pop up barrel, wife has one, cool gun, but 22 is still a 22. People get killed with 22s, even at 700 fps you get from a barrel no longer than your big toe. And the list goes one, forget the derringers, unless you get a big one, like the 45 but why would you pick those when a 10 shot 380 or small 38 is the same size.

The point of the OP, me, is that many folks will not carry a real gun. Should we push the tiny ones on them, if we can get them to do so, I think so. I lean toward the plastic 380s, Keltec, Ruger SW, Taurus, as long as they go off every time, that is all that matters to me. My LCP Custom the one with sights, will shoot 2,5 inch full magazine groups at 50 feet. That is the size of the head on a rabbit or squirrel, or the ear of a human. I have others, that give a basketball size group, like the Seecamp. Nobody wants to get shot , and 5 shots from even a 22 short to the face is pretty scary to me. Justsaying.

So, no, the SP 101 is definetly not a mouse gun. It is a man's gun. IMHO
 

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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I have always been a KT fan. Their ingenuity is unsurpassed by any in the market. I once carried a KT PF9 and did so for a long time. Until I came to the realization that, one day, my life might depend on it. I just could not trust it, not that it ever failed me. Kinda like grabbing an AR over an AK. Won't happen. I'll give up a lot for a gun I know is going to go 'bang' every time I pull that trigger.
Not sure why you were concerned about the KelTec Pf9. Wiley Clap called it the best Keltec he hard ever seen and in his tests it was 100%. In fact, of the article he wrote about the single stack 9mm, it was the second most accurate. The Walther beat it by about 2/10th inch groups at 25 yards.

When they first came out they had a few problems with the extractor, they never had a recall, but if you called them they send you new one free. I was concerned in 2015, so I called them and they explained the issue. So, they sent one, in 2015, mine has never jammed, failed to feed, nothing. I have a half dozen single stack guns that will fit in my pocket including the Glock 43, it stays in the safe and I carry the Pf9.

The PF9 is the most likely 9mm to limp wrist, because it weighs the least, 12.7 ounces, just simply math, a high velocity bullet needs a stable platform to hold the gun still while it escapes the barrel and the platform need to be held still so the slide can start forward. Any limp wrist and it is likely to jam. Anyway, many people simply cannot handle the recoil so the let them roll in the hand and the gun flops around and the next round up jams the gun because the empty did not get out of the gun.

Anyway, surprised you were worried about it. Mine has not had a failure in the nearly 8 years I have owned it. It is not a range gun, it is a combat gun. If I could buy them cheap I would probably buy a second one. I am not a Keltec fan, I have 2 the Pf9 and the Sub2000, the fold up 9mm carbine, they are both great.
 
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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I think there were rumors about the PF9 durability. I heard such as max 500 rounds, etc, etc. 'Course, I guess mine had better than 1000 when I got rid of it. As you say, it was easy to limp wrist. I didn't actually limp wrist, but my wrists lost their strength & couldn't handle the felt recoil. It would short cycle with anything other than standard 115 gr. FMJ, so I decided not suitable for carry & certainly wasn't fun at the range!
I remember the rumor and that is why I called and asked them about the upgrade. I think it was just an extractor and a spring. The firing pin hole also was an issue because it was tight and would only hold so much grime and dirt and then there was the risk of a light strike. I never had any of that like I said, they sent me the parts free, I just never put them in, that has been since about 2013 or 14 so I will just keep them in case there ever is an issue. The factory actually told me that some people would actually in large the firing pin hole, I think with a 1/16th inch bit. But mine never had a problem so I did not do anything to it and it is still going strong.

There is a forum out there where some guy claims he put 13,000 rounds through the Pf9 without a single failure. That is a lot of wrist banging tight there, way too much for me. If you did not have a bad wrist before you would before you got to 13,000 rounds.

Mine shoots every kind of ball, flat point, ball, and hollow point I have tried in it. I do keep my guns pretty clean and clean it every few months whether I shoot in or not. I never heard of anything actually breaking on one. They do kick a lot and I think that is why many people get rid of them, just too much recoil which is also messing with my bad wrist..


Anyway mine goes where I go and I have no worries as long as I remember to grip it very hard. There are lots of other options out there. If I did not have the Keltec I would just carry the bigger Glock 43, nothing wrong with it just need to hold them with a death grip. Anyway just different stroke for different folks.
 
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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
The Ohio Gov just signed SB215 to conceal carry in the state without a CCW license. The training requirement was lifted, and you don't need to advance announce if you are armed. The police can ask you that question and a truthful response is required. Additionally, the state background check that was done to get a CCW was also lifted. I am glad the SB215 was signed and will go into effect on 12 June 2022. There are many crimes including some very horrific attacks being perpetrated against good people. The law enforcement community can't respond quickly meaning people must be able to protect themselves and their loved ones until police arrive.
As for me, I have not fired a .380 cal firearm that I enjoyed shooting, my daughter has a very nice .380 Ruger that on many occasions she says it is the only pistol where she has buyers remorse because of the recoil discomfort she experiences. Will it work as a defensive weapon - yes but it doesn't get enough range time to where she is comfortable with it. Truthfully, I feel the same way with the .380 I bought years ago.
My personal feelings, there is a tremendous variety of small form factor 9mm 9x19 firearms available and the ammo is readily available and a lower price than the .380 ammo. Cost to practice is always a consideration. The three other considerations for me is Form, Fit, Function and the Springfield XDs Mod 2 is my #1 choice, I love that little gun and it is my carry weapon.
I just purchased a SAR 9T and it is my potential #2 choice (same size as the Glock 17) I still need to fire it more (only had it two weeks) but it has been a sweet accurate shooter and reliably fires anything I feed it. My current #2 is a Taurus PT 24/7 G2 in 40 S&W, never had any issues with this Taurus or any Taurus I have purchased over the last 37 years, still have them and still love shooting them. I bought the kids their Glock 19 Gen 4 and 23 Gen 4, son wanted the 9mm, daughter went with the .40 S&W (go figure). I have fired both and they are the most comfortable Glocks I have fired, the previous Gens were not as comfortable to hold or shoot.
Final take away...caliber, firearm size, and brand, are all your personal choice. As for being able to legally carry it with you, do your part and comply. Practice shooting, and know the laws and what you can and can not do with regard to self defense. The hypothetical question - Did you shoot with intent to kill? Hypothetical answer - NO, to stop the imminent threat of serious injury or death to myself and loved ones.
Good post. You reminded me of the big complaint with guns like the Pf9 Keltec and lots of the tiny 380s. Recoil When I became a CCW instructor in 1996,it was common for people to take their CCW course with a 22 semi auto. I had one I loaned to people, a Walther pp-22. The reason is that many ladies really had a problem with firing the 50 rounds in the course, because they had a 10 ounce 380. My solution now is simple. Gloves. Forget about expensive shooting gloves, any leather glove will do. Just cut the trigger finger out on the shooting hand and leave those gloves in your range box. Amazing how much difference it makes and the same goes for any shooting. It will make no difference if they need to fire the gun for defense, those few rounds will not be any different that when firing with the gloves. We fire based on the movements we practice, does not matter if we have gloves on or are naked, the act of firing is what we practice, so the training with gloves does not hurt anything. I do recommend that when people practice with gloves on, that they fire the last magazine of the day without them.

I can also recommend the fairly cheap weight lifting gloves found at Walmart, they have all the fingers cut out, but give great support and padding to the hand. I have a condition called SLAC wrist where 3 bones in my risk have crumbled and can never be rebuilt, so anything that recoils hurts. They can repair it but I will lose 50% of my grip, so I just deal with it and use gloves when I shoot the big kickers. I also have arthritis that every old person gets, and we all need to plan for that. The gloves help. So, for the ladies that hate to fire the little 380s, give them a try. It takes a little bit getting used to but a couple times to the range and they are fine.

And I agree with your comment about the small 9mms being an alternative to the 380s. However, there are several new tiny 380s that hold 10 rounds or more and have a more handfilling grip. The little Ruger LCP max comes to mind. 11 rounds of 380 is pretty well armed if that is what a person can handle. I trained two ladies last summer with their SW EZ Shield 380s. I was amazed at how ez they were and how accurate they are. And they have almost no recoil. If you run across one on a range ask to fire it a couple times. They are great little guns and the design negates any recoil. Not sure how, but it does. Perfect gun for anyone who has a problem pulling a slide back or a problem with recoil.
 
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