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Should people carry a mouse gun?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 67.7%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • As a second gun

    Votes: 11 35.5%
  • If that is all they are willing to carry

    Votes: 10 32.3%
  • If they have recoil issues or other problems with shooting

    Votes: 7 22.6%
  • Never, never, never

    Votes: 0 0.0%

Mouse guns? A reason why. we need to push them.

3863 Views 53 Replies 23 Participants Last post by  Rick Dangerous
The point of this post is to raise awareness of how many dangerous people are walking side by side with us, every day in every town in the US, which is not as safe as we think. Here is link of a guy who punched a lady for not giving up her seat on a bus. My nearby small town police blotter shows several incidents of of violence every week. My thought is we need to alert the ladies and the little people to the risk they face, bad guys hurt big guys too, just not very often. One of my degrees in a masters in criminal justice where I studied why bad guys are bad. Really? You need to study that? Like the guy who punched the lady, some people are just a POS. And the increase in meth and fentanyl and other drugs is a never ending risk. I have faught those guys on PCP, and that super human strength deal is real. Anyway, some thoughts about why mouse guns are appropriate and the reason is because my petite wife is not gong to carry a 1911 or 357 mag, her Ruger LC9s sometimes maybe, but if properly aware maybe, just maybe her 380 will be within reach when that time comes. Comments and observations.?

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/man-punches-pregnant-woman-she-164222661.html

As Vlad Putin kills babies and little kids and innocent people every day, I keep reading about old ladies and young kids being killed by pit bull dogs and other dogs and getting mugged and robbed right here at home. Something wrong with that picture. This link says a guy punched a lady for not giving him her seat on the bus. What would we do if we are standing there? Just watch and go home and tell everybody about what a jerk he was? And if he kept punching her how many punches before we intervened? I can only recall one time when I was close to a deal like that, and I caught the guy as he launched a round house punch and took him to the ground, it was pretty easy, he did not know I was in the fight, until he was on the ground, then he changed his mind about hitting people, but I was 3 decades younger.......

And then I think back to 1977, I was a federal investigator and assigned to a new post in Oklahoma. The district secretary was the sweetest lady on the planet and treated the new kid on the block like he was her own son. Everybody loved her. But while she was so kind and sweet, she had another story. Every year, her husband and 2 kids would go to south Padre Island, Texas for the week of Christmas. Then it ended. Because while they were gone, her mother, age 69, was brutally raped and tied to a chair and left to die. And she did, in a few days. So, the family came home and called grandma and when no answer came made a bad dash to central Oklahoma, where they round her 4 day old corpse tied to a chair. I always wondered how she could be so kind and sweet when she had just gone through that not long before.

And 1978, was a bad year in Oklahoma. I had the honor being assigned as an agent on a second agency to work on the Roger Dale Stafford case. Roger and his wife Verna and his POS brother herded 6 people inside a Sirloin Stockade and murdered them. They drove down Interstate 35 about 40 miles and had Verna stand out by the car with the hood up while he and his POS brother hid in the dark. Sgt Lorenz and his wife and kid were headed back to Randolph AFB, in San Antonio. Both adults were shot as the 12 year old son in the camper on back watched, then they opened it and killed him also. They say Roger and crew killed 34 people. I met and interviewed the father of the 15 year old girl, who was murdered in that walk-in locker. How do you interview a father after a deal like that? About that death penalty? It works.

Roger Dale Stafford - Wikipedia

Just a few years later, I had an argument with a guy about a used car I had for sale. I refused to sell him the car with him giving me a personal check, he went postal on me. I was an experienced law enforcement offer by 1986, had put lots of bad guys in jail, and here I was unarmed letting some stranger test drive the car we had for sale, and he was in my face. He seemed strange, so I went back inside and dropped my 5 shot J frame in the pocket, went back out and told him there was no deal but I would be happy to meet him at his bank and do a cash deal or whatever. He cussed a while and then left. A few months later, my wife yelled at me to come watch the news. That guy made the new s, national news. That guy was Patrick Sherill, the guy who killed 15 people inside the post office on August 20, 1986, not 50 miles away and a couple months later. And the story gets worse, a guy that worked for me, his wife was one of the 15.

Edmond post office shooting - Wikipedia

Now my wife is just past that 69 and we live an a semi rural place. Love the wildlife and the fact we can sit out and not hear cars and screams of kids and noisy people, but when I am gone, anybody can drop by. Did I mention we live on a dead end.? And then I have medical issue, so sometimes she goes an hour or two north or south to see the grand kids and great grand kids and I am not there. And once in a while I go off with the guys and kill a deer, 5 hours away. And one of these days, pretty soon, I will not be here at all.

So, having been in military and civilian law enforcement local, state, federal and military, I have met some nice thugs and some bad thugs, and know there are lots of them out there. This incident of some jerk punching a lady is now pretty common. That jerk will punch anther lady or child or do other violence. There are other officers on this site, am I wrong? I have been retired over 2 decades, so maybe bad guys only do one bad thing now?

Anyway. my point is we need to raise the awareness and promote training people to use firearms and to have them. I am not going to convince any non gun person to carry a large gun. But if I can convince people to learn how to shoot and when to carry the gun, at least they have a chance. And the place to start in my view is something they will actually carry. I have several 380s and my plan is to give them away. Don't ask I already have a list.

Anyway, just food for thought. Most of us will never meet these truly bad ones, but they are in the parking lot at Walmart when we are there, and we walk pas them every day. FWIW
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I have always been a KT fan. Their ingenuity is unsurpassed by any in the market. I once carried a KT PF9 and did so for a long time. Until I came to the realization that, one day, my life might depend on it. I just could not trust it, not that it ever failed me. Kinda like grabbing an AR over an AK. Won't happen. I'll give up a lot for a gun I know is going to go 'bang' every time I pull that trigger.
Not sure why you were concerned about the KelTec Pf9. Wiley Clap called it the best Keltec he hard ever seen and in his tests it was 100%. In fact, of the article he wrote about the single stack 9mm, it was the second most accurate. The Walther beat it by about 2/10th inch groups at 25 yards.

When they first came out they had a few problems with the extractor, they never had a recall, but if you called them they send you new one free. I was concerned in 2015, so I called them and they explained the issue. So, they sent one, in 2015, mine has never jammed, failed to feed, nothing. I have a half dozen single stack guns that will fit in my pocket including the Glock 43, it stays in the safe and I carry the Pf9.

The PF9 is the most likely 9mm to limp wrist, because it weighs the least, 12.7 ounces, just simply math, a high velocity bullet needs a stable platform to hold the gun still while it escapes the barrel and the platform need to be held still so the slide can start forward. Any limp wrist and it is likely to jam. Anyway, many people simply cannot handle the recoil so the let them roll in the hand and the gun flops around and the next round up jams the gun because the empty did not get out of the gun.

Anyway, surprised you were worried about it. Mine has not had a failure in the nearly 8 years I have owned it. It is not a range gun, it is a combat gun. If I could buy them cheap I would probably buy a second one. I am not a Keltec fan, I have 2 the Pf9 and the Sub2000, the fold up 9mm carbine, they are both great.
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Off topic but speaking about Keltec... I've been jonesin' for a PMR30. Not a mouse gun but 30 rounds of .22WMR. Yowsa!
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Not sure why you were concerned about the KelTec Pf9. Wiley Clap called it the best Keltec he hard ever seen and in his tests it was 100%. In fact, of the article he wrote about the single stack 9mm, it was the second most accurate. The Walther beat it by about 2/10th inch groups at 25 yards.

When they first came out they had a few problems with the extractor, they never had a recall, but if you called them they send you new one free. I was concerned in 2015, so I called them and they explained the issue. So, they sent one, in 2015, mine has never jammed, failed to feed, nothing. I have a half dozen single stack guns that will fit in my pocket including the Glock 43, it stays in the safe and I carry the Pf9.

The PF9 is the most likely 9mm to limp wrist, because it weighs the least, 12.7 ounces, just simply math, a high velocity bullet needs a stable platform to hold the gun still while it escapes the barrel and the platform need to be held still so the slide can start forward. Any limp wrist and it is likely to jam. Anyway, many people simply cannot handle the recoil so the let them roll in the hand and the gun flops around and the next round up jams the gun because the empty did not get out of the gun.

Anyway, surprised you were worried about it. Mine has not had a failure in the nearly 8 years I have owned it. It is not a range gun, it is a combat gun. If I could buy them cheap I would probably buy a second one. I am not a Keltec fan, I have 2 the Pf9 and the Sub2000, the fold up 9mm carbine, they are both great.

I think there were rumors about the PF9 durability. I heard such as max 500 rounds, etc, etc. 'Course, I guess mine had better than 1000 when I got rid of it. As you say, it was easy to limp wrist. I didn't actually limp wrist, but my wrists lost their strength & couldn't handle the felt recoil. It would short cycle with anything other than standard 115 gr. FMJ, so I decided not suitable for carry & certainly wasn't fun at the range!
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I think there were rumors about the PF9 durability. I heard such as max 500 rounds, etc, etc. 'Course, I guess mine had better than 1000 when I got rid of it. As you say, it was easy to limp wrist. I didn't actually limp wrist, but my wrists lost their strength & couldn't handle the felt recoil. It would short cycle with anything other than standard 115 gr. FMJ, so I decided not suitable for carry & certainly wasn't fun at the range!
I remember the rumor and that is why I called and asked them about the upgrade. I think it was just an extractor and a spring. The firing pin hole also was an issue because it was tight and would only hold so much grime and dirt and then there was the risk of a light strike. I never had any of that like I said, they sent me the parts free, I just never put them in, that has been since about 2013 or 14 so I will just keep them in case there ever is an issue. The factory actually told me that some people would actually in large the firing pin hole, I think with a 1/16th inch bit. But mine never had a problem so I did not do anything to it and it is still going strong.

There is a forum out there where some guy claims he put 13,000 rounds through the Pf9 without a single failure. That is a lot of wrist banging tight there, way too much for me. If you did not have a bad wrist before you would before you got to 13,000 rounds.

Mine shoots every kind of ball, flat point, ball, and hollow point I have tried in it. I do keep my guns pretty clean and clean it every few months whether I shoot in or not. I never heard of anything actually breaking on one. They do kick a lot and I think that is why many people get rid of them, just too much recoil which is also messing with my bad wrist..


Anyway mine goes where I go and I have no worries as long as I remember to grip it very hard. There are lots of other options out there. If I did not have the Keltec I would just carry the bigger Glock 43, nothing wrong with it just need to hold them with a death grip. Anyway just different stroke for different folks.
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As I said, I never had a failure either, I merely allowed the name to steer me away. Don't get me wrong, I own KTs, I just can't get over that, in my head anyway, they're more of a novelty gun company.

As for the limp wristing, you are absolutely dead on there. My kids and wife hated the gun because of the recoil and their inability to allow it to cycle properly. As for accuracy, I could barely hit a washing machine at 25 yards, so that was a 'con' for me as well.
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The Ohio Gov just signed SB215 to conceal carry in the state without a CCW license. The training requirement was lifted, and you don't need to advance announce if you are armed. The police can ask you that question and a truthful response is required. Additionally, the state background check that was done to get a CCW was also lifted. I am glad the SB215 was signed and will go into effect on 12 June 2022. There are many crimes including some very horrific attacks being perpetrated against good people. The law enforcement community can't respond quickly meaning people must be able to protect themselves and their loved ones until police arrive.
As for me, I have not fired a .380 cal firearm that I enjoyed shooting, my daughter has a very nice .380 Ruger that on many occasions she says it is the only pistol where she has buyers remorse because of the recoil discomfort she experiences. Will it work as a defensive weapon - yes but it doesn't get enough range time to where she is comfortable with it. Truthfully, I feel the same way with the .380 I bought years ago.
My personal feelings, there is a tremendous variety of small form factor 9mm 9x19 firearms available and the ammo is readily available and a lower price than the .380 ammo. Cost to practice is always a consideration. The three other considerations for me is Form, Fit, Function and the Springfield XDs Mod 2 is my #1 choice, I love that little gun and it is my carry weapon.
I just purchased a SAR 9T and it is my potential #2 choice (same size as the Glock 17) I still need to fire it more (only had it two weeks) but it has been a sweet accurate shooter and reliably fires anything I feed it. My current #2 is a Taurus PT 24/7 G2 in 40 S&W, never had any issues with this Taurus or any Taurus I have purchased over the last 37 years, still have them and still love shooting them. I bought the kids their Glock 19 Gen 4 and 23 Gen 4, son wanted the 9mm, daughter went with the .40 S&W (go figure). I have fired both and they are the most comfortable Glocks I have fired, the previous Gens were not as comfortable to hold or shoot.
Final take away...caliber, firearm size, and brand, are all your personal choice. As for being able to legally carry it with you, do your part and comply. Practice shooting, and know the laws and what you can and can not do with regard to self defense. The hypothetical question - Did you shoot with intent to kill? Hypothetical answer - NO, to stop the imminent threat of serious injury or death to myself and loved ones.
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The Ohio Gov just signed SB215 to conceal carry in the state without a CCW license. The training requirement was lifted, and you don't need to advance announce if you are armed. The police can ask you that question and a truthful response is required. Additionally, the state background check that was done to get a CCW was also lifted. I am glad the SB215 was signed and will go into effect on 12 June 2022. There are many crimes including some very horrific attacks being perpetrated against good people. The law enforcement community can't respond quickly meaning people must be able to protect themselves and their loved ones until police arrive.
As for me, I have not fired a .380 cal firearm that I enjoyed shooting, my daughter has a very nice .380 Ruger that on many occasions she says it is the only pistol where she has buyers remorse because of the recoil discomfort she experiences. Will it work as a defensive weapon - yes but it doesn't get enough range time to where she is comfortable with it. Truthfully, I feel the same way with the .380 I bought years ago.
My personal feelings, there is a tremendous variety of small form factor 9mm 9x19 firearms available and the ammo is readily available and a lower price than the .380 ammo. Cost to practice is always a consideration. The three other considerations for me is Form, Fit, Function and the Springfield XDs Mod 2 is my #1 choice, I love that little gun and it is my carry weapon.
I just purchased a SAR 9T and it is my potential #2 choice (same size as the Glock 17) I still need to fire it more (only had it two weeks) but it has been a sweet accurate shooter and reliably fires anything I feed it. My current #2 is a Taurus PT 24/7 G2 in 40 S&W, never had any issues with this Taurus or any Taurus I have purchased over the last 37 years, still have them and still love shooting them. I bought the kids their Glock 19 Gen 4 and 23 Gen 4, son wanted the 9mm, daughter went with the .40 S&W (go figure). I have fired both and they are the most comfortable Glocks I have fired, the previous Gens were not as comfortable to hold or shoot.
Final take away...caliber, firearm size, and brand, are all your personal choice. As for being able to legally carry it with you, do your part and comply. Practice shooting, and know the laws and what you can and can not do with regard to self defense. The hypothetical question - Did you shoot with intent to kill? Hypothetical answer - NO, to stop the imminent threat of serious injury or death to myself and loved ones.
Good post. You reminded me of the big complaint with guns like the Pf9 Keltec and lots of the tiny 380s. Recoil When I became a CCW instructor in 1996,it was common for people to take their CCW course with a 22 semi auto. I had one I loaned to people, a Walther pp-22. The reason is that many ladies really had a problem with firing the 50 rounds in the course, because they had a 10 ounce 380. My solution now is simple. Gloves. Forget about expensive shooting gloves, any leather glove will do. Just cut the trigger finger out on the shooting hand and leave those gloves in your range box. Amazing how much difference it makes and the same goes for any shooting. It will make no difference if they need to fire the gun for defense, those few rounds will not be any different that when firing with the gloves. We fire based on the movements we practice, does not matter if we have gloves on or are naked, the act of firing is what we practice, so the training with gloves does not hurt anything. I do recommend that when people practice with gloves on, that they fire the last magazine of the day without them.

I can also recommend the fairly cheap weight lifting gloves found at Walmart, they have all the fingers cut out, but give great support and padding to the hand. I have a condition called SLAC wrist where 3 bones in my risk have crumbled and can never be rebuilt, so anything that recoils hurts. They can repair it but I will lose 50% of my grip, so I just deal with it and use gloves when I shoot the big kickers. I also have arthritis that every old person gets, and we all need to plan for that. The gloves help. So, for the ladies that hate to fire the little 380s, give them a try. It takes a little bit getting used to but a couple times to the range and they are fine.

And I agree with your comment about the small 9mms being an alternative to the 380s. However, there are several new tiny 380s that hold 10 rounds or more and have a more handfilling grip. The little Ruger LCP max comes to mind. 11 rounds of 380 is pretty well armed if that is what a person can handle. I trained two ladies last summer with their SW EZ Shield 380s. I was amazed at how ez they were and how accurate they are. And they have almost no recoil. If you run across one on a range ask to fire it a couple times. They are great little guns and the design negates any recoil. Not sure how, but it does. Perfect gun for anyone who has a problem pulling a slide back or a problem with recoil.
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Being "blow back" or "locked breech" can make a difference in the felt recoil. The P238 Sig (locked breech) is lighter than the Bersa Thunder (blow back), but felt recoil, per my wife, is less.
While in the police academy in Marion, Oh, one of the firearms instructors who was a Marion police officer carried an AMT Backup in 45acp. He stated that he could shoot it as well or better than his duty weapon. It was interesting that when we were doing the training for pat downs that I was the only one that found it. He had it in a holster in his back pocket and it appeared to be a wallet. At one time I thought about getting one.
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Not sure of the brand, but my chiropractor carries one in a back pocket, also in a holster that looks like a wallet. Also, carries a revolver in his boot.
I have, for a little while longer, a KT P32, my wife seems to like it, she rarely carries, and she does have a BT 380 she keeps by her side in the house. I introduced her to the KT before Ruger came out with the LCP Max, I think she'll like it and I have one for her to shoot, I almost always have that in a pocket. Nice little "myversionoftheNAAblackwidow" pocket piece. And that is because where I go for work, no one needs to know that or what I have concealed. I have and carry either a CZ 75 or a 1911 compact in urbania, a 357M revolver when camping or traveling.

Yes, I encourage "mouse carry", for all the reasons already opined.
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Off topic but speaking about Keltec... I've been jonesin' for a PMR30. Not a mouse gun but 30 rounds of .22WMR. Yowsa!
I almost bought one a few months back, but went with a Ruger LCRx instead , basically a house gun for the wife. However, I'm seriously thinking of getting a PMR30 this summer , seen some good reviews on them and like you said , 30 rds of .22 mag in a semi is quite impressive.
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Yeah I was pleasantly surprised When Dewine signed it.......
My Tomcat .32 is one of my favorite travel companions and has been for 14+ years now. There are better/newer designs but this one works just fine for me. I like the pop up barrel; hammer, and just general design. It's a bit of a porker but i've put a few hundred rounds through it at the range and no frame cracking at all. Fairly accurate too for the size and design.

But yes; i'd rather carry this than a superior pistol that i decide not to carry because it's too big/uncomfortable.
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