Gun and Game Forum banner

Should people carry a mouse gun?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 70.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • As a second gun

    Votes: 11 36.7%
  • If that is all they are willing to carry

    Votes: 9 30.0%
  • If they have recoil issues or other problems with shooting

    Votes: 7 23.3%
  • Never, never, never

    Votes: 0 0.0%
41 - 54 of 54 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I have always been a KT fan. Their ingenuity is unsurpassed by any in the market. I once carried a KT PF9 and did so for a long time. Until I came to the realization that, one day, my life might depend on it. I just could not trust it, not that it ever failed me. Kinda like grabbing an AR over an AK. Won't happen. I'll give up a lot for a gun I know is going to go 'bang' every time I pull that trigger.
Not sure why you were concerned about the KelTec Pf9. Wiley Clap called it the best Keltec he hard ever seen and in his tests it was 100%. In fact, of the article he wrote about the single stack 9mm, it was the second most accurate. The Walther beat it by about 2/10th inch groups at 25 yards.

When they first came out they had a few problems with the extractor, they never had a recall, but if you called them they send you new one free. I was concerned in 2015, so I called them and they explained the issue. So, they sent one, in 2015, mine has never jammed, failed to feed, nothing. I have a half dozen single stack guns that will fit in my pocket including the Glock 43, it stays in the safe and I carry the Pf9.

The PF9 is the most likely 9mm to limp wrist, because it weighs the least, 12.7 ounces, just simply math, a high velocity bullet needs a stable platform to hold the gun still while it escapes the barrel and the platform need to be held still so the slide can start forward. Any limp wrist and it is likely to jam. Anyway, many people simply cannot handle the recoil so the let them roll in the hand and the gun flops around and the next round up jams the gun because the empty did not get out of the gun.

Anyway, surprised you were worried about it. Mine has not had a failure in the nearly 8 years I have owned it. It is not a range gun, it is a combat gun. If I could buy them cheap I would probably buy a second one. I am not a Keltec fan, I have 2 the Pf9 and the Sub2000, the fold up 9mm carbine, they are both great.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neophyte

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,293 Posts
Not sure why you were concerned about the KelTec Pf9. Wiley Clap called it the best Keltec he hard ever seen and in his tests it was 100%. In fact, of the article he wrote about the single stack 9mm, it was the second most accurate. The Walther beat it by about 2/10th inch groups at 25 yards.

When they first came out they had a few problems with the extractor, they never had a recall, but if you called them they send you new one free. I was concerned in 2015, so I called them and they explained the issue. So, they sent one, in 2015, mine has never jammed, failed to feed, nothing. I have a half dozen single stack guns that will fit in my pocket including the Glock 43, it stays in the safe and I carry the Pf9.

The PF9 is the most likely 9mm to limp wrist, because it weighs the least, 12.7 ounces, just simply math, a high velocity bullet needs a stable platform to hold the gun still while it escapes the barrel and the platform need to be held still so the slide can start forward. Any limp wrist and it is likely to jam. Anyway, many people simply cannot handle the recoil so the let them roll in the hand and the gun flops around and the next round up jams the gun because the empty did not get out of the gun.

Anyway, surprised you were worried about it. Mine has not had a failure in the nearly 8 years I have owned it. It is not a range gun, it is a combat gun. If I could buy them cheap I would probably buy a second one. I am not a Keltec fan, I have 2 the Pf9 and the Sub2000, the fold up 9mm carbine, they are both great.

I think there were rumors about the PF9 durability. I heard such as max 500 rounds, etc, etc. 'Course, I guess mine had better than 1000 when I got rid of it. As you say, it was easy to limp wrist. I didn't actually limp wrist, but my wrists lost their strength & couldn't handle the felt recoil. It would short cycle with anything other than standard 115 gr. FMJ, so I decided not suitable for carry & certainly wasn't fun at the range!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I think there were rumors about the PF9 durability. I heard such as max 500 rounds, etc, etc. 'Course, I guess mine had better than 1000 when I got rid of it. As you say, it was easy to limp wrist. I didn't actually limp wrist, but my wrists lost their strength & couldn't handle the felt recoil. It would short cycle with anything other than standard 115 gr. FMJ, so I decided not suitable for carry & certainly wasn't fun at the range!
I remember the rumor and that is why I called and asked them about the upgrade. I think it was just an extractor and a spring. The firing pin hole also was an issue because it was tight and would only hold so much grime and dirt and then there was the risk of a light strike. I never had any of that like I said, they sent me the parts free, I just never put them in, that has been since about 2013 or 14 so I will just keep them in case there ever is an issue. The factory actually told me that some people would actually in large the firing pin hole, I think with a 1/16th inch bit. But mine never had a problem so I did not do anything to it and it is still going strong.

There is a forum out there where some guy claims he put 13,000 rounds through the Pf9 without a single failure. That is a lot of wrist banging tight there, way too much for me. If you did not have a bad wrist before you would before you got to 13,000 rounds.

Mine shoots every kind of ball, flat point, ball, and hollow point I have tried in it. I do keep my guns pretty clean and clean it every few months whether I shoot in or not. I never heard of anything actually breaking on one. They do kick a lot and I think that is why many people get rid of them, just too much recoil which is also messing with my bad wrist..


Anyway mine goes where I go and I have no worries as long as I remember to grip it very hard. There are lots of other options out there. If I did not have the Keltec I would just carry the bigger Glock 43, nothing wrong with it just need to hold them with a death grip. Anyway just different stroke for different folks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neophyte

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
14,351 Posts
As I said, I never had a failure either, I merely allowed the name to steer me away. Don't get me wrong, I own KTs, I just can't get over that, in my head anyway, they're more of a novelty gun company.

As for the limp wristing, you are absolutely dead on there. My kids and wife hated the gun because of the recoil and their inability to allow it to cycle properly. As for accuracy, I could barely hit a washing machine at 25 yards, so that was a 'con' for me as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,662 Posts
The Ohio Gov just signed SB215 to conceal carry in the state without a CCW license. The training requirement was lifted, and you don't need to advance announce if you are armed. The police can ask you that question and a truthful response is required. Additionally, the state background check that was done to get a CCW was also lifted. I am glad the SB215 was signed and will go into effect on 12 June 2022. There are many crimes including some very horrific attacks being perpetrated against good people. The law enforcement community can't respond quickly meaning people must be able to protect themselves and their loved ones until police arrive.
As for me, I have not fired a .380 cal firearm that I enjoyed shooting, my daughter has a very nice .380 Ruger that on many occasions she says it is the only pistol where she has buyers remorse because of the recoil discomfort she experiences. Will it work as a defensive weapon - yes but it doesn't get enough range time to where she is comfortable with it. Truthfully, I feel the same way with the .380 I bought years ago.
My personal feelings, there is a tremendous variety of small form factor 9mm 9x19 firearms available and the ammo is readily available and a lower price than the .380 ammo. Cost to practice is always a consideration. The three other considerations for me is Form, Fit, Function and the Springfield XDs Mod 2 is my #1 choice, I love that little gun and it is my carry weapon.
I just purchased a SAR 9T and it is my potential #2 choice (same size as the Glock 17) I still need to fire it more (only had it two weeks) but it has been a sweet accurate shooter and reliably fires anything I feed it. My current #2 is a Taurus PT 24/7 G2 in 40 S&W, never had any issues with this Taurus or any Taurus I have purchased over the last 37 years, still have them and still love shooting them. I bought the kids their Glock 19 Gen 4 and 23 Gen 4, son wanted the 9mm, daughter went with the .40 S&W (go figure). I have fired both and they are the most comfortable Glocks I have fired, the previous Gens were not as comfortable to hold or shoot.
Final take away...caliber, firearm size, and brand, are all your personal choice. As for being able to legally carry it with you, do your part and comply. Practice shooting, and know the laws and what you can and can not do with regard to self defense. The hypothetical question - Did you shoot with intent to kill? Hypothetical answer - NO, to stop the imminent threat of serious injury or death to myself and loved ones.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 ·
The Ohio Gov just signed SB215 to conceal carry in the state without a CCW license. The training requirement was lifted, and you don't need to advance announce if you are armed. The police can ask you that question and a truthful response is required. Additionally, the state background check that was done to get a CCW was also lifted. I am glad the SB215 was signed and will go into effect on 12 June 2022. There are many crimes including some very horrific attacks being perpetrated against good people. The law enforcement community can't respond quickly meaning people must be able to protect themselves and their loved ones until police arrive.
As for me, I have not fired a .380 cal firearm that I enjoyed shooting, my daughter has a very nice .380 Ruger that on many occasions she says it is the only pistol where she has buyers remorse because of the recoil discomfort she experiences. Will it work as a defensive weapon - yes but it doesn't get enough range time to where she is comfortable with it. Truthfully, I feel the same way with the .380 I bought years ago.
My personal feelings, there is a tremendous variety of small form factor 9mm 9x19 firearms available and the ammo is readily available and a lower price than the .380 ammo. Cost to practice is always a consideration. The three other considerations for me is Form, Fit, Function and the Springfield XDs Mod 2 is my #1 choice, I love that little gun and it is my carry weapon.
I just purchased a SAR 9T and it is my potential #2 choice (same size as the Glock 17) I still need to fire it more (only had it two weeks) but it has been a sweet accurate shooter and reliably fires anything I feed it. My current #2 is a Taurus PT 24/7 G2 in 40 S&W, never had any issues with this Taurus or any Taurus I have purchased over the last 37 years, still have them and still love shooting them. I bought the kids their Glock 19 Gen 4 and 23 Gen 4, son wanted the 9mm, daughter went with the .40 S&W (go figure). I have fired both and they are the most comfortable Glocks I have fired, the previous Gens were not as comfortable to hold or shoot.
Final take away...caliber, firearm size, and brand, are all your personal choice. As for being able to legally carry it with you, do your part and comply. Practice shooting, and know the laws and what you can and can not do with regard to self defense. The hypothetical question - Did you shoot with intent to kill? Hypothetical answer - NO, to stop the imminent threat of serious injury or death to myself and loved ones.
Good post. You reminded me of the big complaint with guns like the Pf9 Keltec and lots of the tiny 380s. Recoil When I became a CCW instructor in 1996,it was common for people to take their CCW course with a 22 semi auto. I had one I loaned to people, a Walther pp-22. The reason is that many ladies really had a problem with firing the 50 rounds in the course, because they had a 10 ounce 380. My solution now is simple. Gloves. Forget about expensive shooting gloves, any leather glove will do. Just cut the trigger finger out on the shooting hand and leave those gloves in your range box. Amazing how much difference it makes and the same goes for any shooting. It will make no difference if they need to fire the gun for defense, those few rounds will not be any different that when firing with the gloves. We fire based on the movements we practice, does not matter if we have gloves on or are naked, the act of firing is what we practice, so the training with gloves does not hurt anything. I do recommend that when people practice with gloves on, that they fire the last magazine of the day without them.

I can also recommend the fairly cheap weight lifting gloves found at Walmart, they have all the fingers cut out, but give great support and padding to the hand. I have a condition called SLAC wrist where 3 bones in my risk have crumbled and can never be rebuilt, so anything that recoils hurts. They can repair it but I will lose 50% of my grip, so I just deal with it and use gloves when I shoot the big kickers. I also have arthritis that every old person gets, and we all need to plan for that. The gloves help. So, for the ladies that hate to fire the little 380s, give them a try. It takes a little bit getting used to but a couple times to the range and they are fine.

And I agree with your comment about the small 9mms being an alternative to the 380s. However, there are several new tiny 380s that hold 10 rounds or more and have a more handfilling grip. The little Ruger LCP max comes to mind. 11 rounds of 380 is pretty well armed if that is what a person can handle. I trained two ladies last summer with their SW EZ Shield 380s. I was amazed at how ez they were and how accurate they are. And they have almost no recoil. If you run across one on a range ask to fire it a couple times. They are great little guns and the design negates any recoil. Not sure how, but it does. Perfect gun for anyone who has a problem pulling a slide back or a problem with recoil.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wicked109

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,293 Posts
Being "blow back" or "locked breech" can make a difference in the felt recoil. The P238 Sig (locked breech) is lighter than the Bersa Thunder (blow back), but felt recoil, per my wife, is less.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,011 Posts
While in the police academy in Marion, Oh, one of the firearms instructors who was a Marion police officer carried an AMT Backup in 45acp. He stated that he could shoot it as well or better than his duty weapon. It was interesting that when we were doing the training for pat downs that I was the only one that found it. He had it in a holster in his back pocket and it appeared to be a wallet. At one time I thought about getting one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,293 Posts
Not sure of the brand, but my chiropractor carries one in a back pocket, also in a holster that looks like a wallet. Also, carries a revolver in his boot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
I have, for a little while longer, a KT P32, my wife seems to like it, she rarely carries, and she does have a BT 380 she keeps by her side in the house. I introduced her to the KT before Ruger came out with the LCP Max, I think she'll like it and I have one for her to shoot, I almost always have that in a pocket. Nice little "myversionoftheNAAblackwidow" pocket piece. And that is because where I go for work, no one needs to know that or what I have concealed. I have and carry either a CZ 75 or a 1911 compact in urbania, a 357M revolver when camping or traveling.

Yes, I encourage "mouse carry", for all the reasons already opined.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
Off topic but speaking about Keltec... I've been jonesin' for a PMR30. Not a mouse gun but 30 rounds of .22WMR. Yowsa!
I almost bought one a few months back, but went with a Ruger LCRx instead , basically a house gun for the wife. However, I'm seriously thinking of getting a PMR30 this summer , seen some good reviews on them and like you said , 30 rds of .22 mag in a semi is quite impressive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
My Tomcat .32 is one of my favorite travel companions and has been for 14+ years now. There are better/newer designs but this one works just fine for me. I like the pop up barrel; hammer, and just general design. It's a bit of a porker but i've put a few hundred rounds through it at the range and no frame cracking at all. Fairly accurate too for the size and design.

But yes; i'd rather carry this than a superior pistol that i decide not to carry because it's too big/uncomfortable.
 
41 - 54 of 54 Posts
Top