Muzzles versus cleaning rods.

Discussion in 'M1 Garand' started by Laufer, Sep 16, 2010.

  1. Laufer

    Laufer G&G Enthusiast

    Lost my first muzzle guide and the next arrives in a few days. The gun arrived several weeks ago (first Garand) and the bore is very bright/shiny.

    If you slowly insert the short brass piece and avoid rubbing it against the muzzle, does the polymer rod's shaft sometimes have enough tiny particles to scratch the muzzle enough to influence the shots at 100 or 200 yards?

    I've never shot beyond 100, but might try some at 200: might not achieve the skill to be in a Garand match. Is it best to skip any attempt at cleaning residue from sixteen rds. and wait for the bore guide?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  2. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    I know I will be bashed for this but I firmly believe that alot of that is all hype.
    The GCA ran a test where they ran a 3 piece steel rod down the bore of a Garand. They purposely tried to wear the bore ,draging the rod against the bore.
    They measured the bore before and after the test. It took a very very large amount of strokes to make a very small amount of wear. More than we would ever make in a lifetime.
    A guy on another forum measured the Muzzle of a Garand fired many thousands of rds through the summer.
    His findings, and my belief is Muzzle Wear is more from actual firing than cleaning
    I do use a coated cleaning rod on my Garand but no muzzle guide.

    If interested I will see if I can find the article
     

  3. texnmidwest

    texnmidwest Sir Loin of Beef Forum Contributor

    That was a very interesting article! It did dispell the myth a bit.
     
  4. hornet41

    hornet41 G&G Newbie

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    Get the Otis cleaning system and never look back!! Use it on my M1A's, M1 and Ruger 10/22's and mini 30! Clean from beach!! Mo
     
  5. jerry

    jerry Since 03-15- 2002 Forum Contributor

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    Over cleaning is a problem more than anything.
    The Otis or boresnake is a good alterative if not using a bore guide.
    As stated, I agree that normal cleaning will not cause harm.
     
  6. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    Heres a summery of Part 1 of the article in the GCA

    The object of this test was to clean a barrel by stroking a conventional , segmented GI cleaning rod in and out of the muzzle end being as abusive as we could. Remember the purpose of this test was to ERODE the muzzle. We started with a barrel that gauged exactly a 2 and wondered how many strokes it would require to deteriorate the muzzle to a reading of 3 on the gauge.
    One stroke consisted of running the rod, with a patch on it, thru to the chamber and then pulling it out again. We were very careful during this test sequence to bear FIRMLY on the wall of the muzzle for the entire stroke. Strokes were done in lots of 50 , and care was given during each lot of 50 to go "all around the clock" so that wear would be as uniform as possible.
    In our opinion the useful life of a M1 barrel is approximatly 6,000 rds. Our experience has shown that after 6,000 rds a reasonable marksman will detect poorer scores on his target. The "cone of dispersion'
    opens up noticeably beyond 6,000 rds. due to muzzle wear and throat erosion.
    Now lets look at some data. So far we have aggressivly stroked this barrel 35,000 times and are approxamatly 71.5 % of the distance from 2.0 to 3.0 on our gauge. If we project this out it will take approx. 50,000 strokes to degrade the muzzle by one graduation, and this is being as abusive as we can with a segmented steel rod.
    If we assume that a rifle is cleaned every 50rds (average of practice and match shootings) then 6000 rds would equal 1,440 cleaning strokes under my cleaning procedure. This is just 3% of the distance from the 2.0 to 3.0 on our gauge!
    It seems reasonable to us that if we used a one piece , coate dcleaning rod as oppsoed to a segmented, steelone, that we could "conservatively" double the number of strokes required to degrade the muzzle by 1 graduation on the gauge. If that is true we could clean a rifle after every rd fired and not come close to degrading the muzzle by one graduation over the useful life of the barrel.
    We believe that the reasonable conclusion drawn from this test is that cleaning an M1 rifle from the muzzle with a 1 piece coated rod and using a small amount of care will have minimal effect on the muzzle erosion as measured with a conventional gauge
     
  7. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    Heres some more info to chew on. A guy over on Battlerifles forum did a experiment.
    He had a Garand with Throat Weat and Muzzle Wear of bath around 1.5 Over the course of the year he fired 3000rds rounds of M2 Ball through it. Cleaning every 250 rounds with an Otis pull-thru Cleaning system and using a bore-guide to center the pull-thru so it doesn't touch the bore. Firing wasboth rapid and slow-fire.

    After 3000rds this is the results:
    Op-rod spring- New when started, length was 20". Length after 3K rounds- 19-1/4".

    Op-rod- tab showing wear, right at .317, started out at .319. Piston shows no wear, still mikes at .526.

    Internals show no real appreciable wear.

    Gas-Cylinder- still mikes at .530

    Throat Wear- Final measure is 3.75

    Muzzle Wear- Final measure is 3.5!

    Muzzle Wear went up 2 full increments on the gauge!
    I'm not trying to start any arguements guys but just giving some real interesting facts to think about. While I'm sure improper cleaning can add some to MW . But these real world results sure seem to point to something else. Seems that actual use and number of rds plays a bigger facter .
     
  8. Ericc

    Ericc G&G Newbie

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    It's not the rod that does damage. It's the sand and fine grit that in the field that could get embeded in the rod that would do damage. A segmented rod has the potential to hold grit at the joints.

    If they repeated the test in a real in the field environment with dust and dirt and sand they'd get a different result.

    Personally I use the OTIS system. It's fast, easy, and does a great job.
     
  9. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    Point of the test is for us as shooters today and showing expected wear from use
    Did you read my above post on the incresed muzzle wear from rounds down the tube? He used the Otis system
    Using any type rod will not increse muzzle wear as much as actual firing IMO
     
  10. Jay

    Jay Old man, No tact... Staff Member

    Ever wonder why the vast majority of bore brushes are brass, or bronze ? Check out Kreiger Barrels...

    Break-In & Cleaning

    Follow instructions on the bottle as far as soak time, etc. . . Always clean from the breech whenever possible, pushing the patch or swab up to the muzzle and then back without completely exiting the muzzle. If you exit the muzzle, the rod is going to touch the bore and be dragged back in across the crown followed by the patch or brush. Try to avoid dragging things in and out of the muzzle. It will eventually cause uneven wear of the crown. Accuracy will suffer and this can lead you to believe the barrel is shot out, when in fact, it still may have a lot of serviceable life left. A barrel with a worn or damaged crown can be re-crowned and accuracy will usually return.

    Also from Krieger Barrels...

    FAQ

    Q: Can you damage a barrel during cleaning?
    A: Yes. Damage is possible in the following ways: · By not using a bore guide. Use a bore guide whenever possible to prevent damage to the throat of the rifling and nicks and scratches to the bore. Always clean from the breech end whenever possible. · Damage to the crown from the cleaning rod. This is the most frequent cleaning damage we see.

    Do a search for "match rifle barrels"... on Google, the first three results will be from Shilen Barrels, Krieger Barrels, and Hart Barrels. They all say the same thing. Choose the source you want to believe.

    To each his/her own. Clean how you want to.... it's your firearm
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  11. Paper

    Paper I can justify anything. Forum Contributor


    Laufer,
    Just do it!! EVERYONE has the skill to be in a Garand Match.. That's the point of it!! Just go and learn from others, and HAVE FUN!!

    A few years ago I would have never thought I'd ever compete in a shooting competition. Now, I can't wait for the next one! My shooting has improved, and I've met a bunch of great people!!

    Go to Match Result Search and check scores of the matches.. These are regular people, just like you and me.. (oh, and go back into July or earlier for scores. CMP hasn't updated the scores for a while) Anyway, check out the scores and you'll see some really good shooters, and some not-so-good scores. But I'll bet everyone of them had a good time shooting!!

    There's a couple women at my club's shoots who at every match. They shoot carbines and have a great time! The scores they shoot aren't going to win at Camp Perry, but they're having fun and that's all that counts. And they're also getting better..

    Anyway, while I have a good time with my club's reduced targets at 100 yards, I'd really like to shoot a match at 200 to see what the difference is. If I did badly, I'd just work on getting better. :) And I'm sure I'd meet more cool people while doing so.


    Edit...
    I forgot to mention how things come together for some people.. If you sandbag your scores long enough, you'll end up with a healthy handicap.. Then, quit sandbagging for a day and you shoot a match and end up with a score that's higher than the possible 500..

    Take a look at the Handicap Results from this match..

    http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_matchResult.cgi?matchID=6008

    That's sandbagging at it's finest!!
    Now if only I could go and change his name here to Texinsandbaggingmidwest.. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  12. lefty o

    lefty o G&G Evangelist

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    you can not use a muzzle guage to accurately assess muzzle wear from a cleaning rod. wear from a cleaning rod will oblong the bore at the muzzle, and a muzzle guage does not check for this.
     
  13. ChaZam

    ChaZam G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    I'll just add that I've seen multiple thousands of Moisin Nagants that have been counter bored to rectify the damage done by cleaning from the muzzle. Strangely, I have never encountered 1 of the 'Muzzle Guides' supplied with these rifles that has the appearance of ever being used.

    Will 1 or 2 cleanings without a guide ruin your Garands barrel? Of course not. Would repeated cleanings without a guide ruin your Garands barrel? Most assuredly.
     
  14. Mooseman684

    Mooseman684 G&G Newbie

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    Every LR Rifle competition shooter I know clean from the Breech to the muzzle to avoid muzzle wear or crown damage ,But this cannot be done with a Garand without using a Boresnake or Pull thru system. Muzzle Wear/ Crown Damage can come from Both sources
    ,firing ammo and cleaning rods. You may not believe it , But you can sharpen a knife with an aluminum rod like a cleaning rod. Aluminum oxide that forms on all aluminum is used as an abrasive on sandpaper , so it has abrasive qualities.
    Combine gun oil with grit in battlefield conditions and jointed cleaning rods ,both steel and aluminum, and it just has to add to the wear moreso than just testing in a non-battlefield environment.
     
  15. Orlando

    Orlando G&G Evangelist

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    I;m not trying to start any arguements guys, just trying to give some food for thought.
    Again, this is posted for todays modern shooter, NOT BATTELFIELD CONDITIONS
    Do you think all the info I posted is made up?
     
  16. Jay

    Jay Old man, No tact... Staff Member

    I'm not arguing about anything... but I'll take methodology from Shilen, Krieger, and Hart long before I'll take an opposite opinion from GCA regarding barrel care.

    However anyone else chooses to clean their barrels, will not affect my barrels, one way or the other..... I'm no expert, but after cleaning firearms for over 40 years, I doubt anyone else's methods will dramatically change my methods, either.

    Completely subjective... have at it....... :usa2:
     
  17. jerry

    jerry Since 03-15- 2002 Forum Contributor

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    I'd like to add overthinking it along with over cleaning.
     
  18. Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean cleaning too often or spending too much time cleaning?
    I have found that no matter how long I spend cleaning, I still get green coming through on the patch.

    Michael
     
  19. lefty o

    lefty o G&G Evangelist

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    orlando, no i do not believe the info you posted is made up, but it doesnt prove anything. a muzzle guage measures the diameter of the bore at the muzzle, but it will not measure an oblong hole. in other words, if you egg shape your bore with a cleaning rod 2/3 of the bore is a smaller diameter than the 1/3 that you oblonged with the rod, a muzzle wear guage will only measure the 2/3 of the bore, it will give absolutely no indication on the guage that the other 1/3 is larger.
     
  20. jerry

    jerry Since 03-15- 2002 Forum Contributor

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    I appologize, I should elaborate. Albeit I'm not a purist, I do not shoot high level competition with the Garand as well.
    I'm a bit more particular than the average GI and way less particular than the average target shooter. I want my M1 to work well with good combat accuracy. This link is pretty close to the routine I follow. Not for everyone & I do not preach. Just works for me.
    FM 23-5: Chapter 5. - MAINTENANCE