[Ranger4]

I did go and read the ATF Pistol Brace regulation and I'm good with what I have. The only thing I can't do is shoulder it. No problem, but you can tuck it into your cheek and the red dot lines up perfectly with your eyes.
I do expect a legal challenge on this new regulation and It would be great if they would reduce it down to two categories, either pistol or rifle and do away with the SBR category and the need for a $200 stamp.
The main thing is we need to do is to use the firearm in a safe manner, to me it doesn't matter how you hold it to be accurate.

You might want to read that new reg closely. The sighting system is now one of the criteria. If it has a rifle scope on it and you hold it touching your shoulder or face or chin, or ear, it looks like that is a rifle, certainly not a pistol because there is no traditional way where people hold a pistol and it touches your ear, nose, buck teeth, any facial hairs, chin, cheek, neck or shoulder. So, if it has a rifle scope and touches you above the waist when you sight it, if is a rifle and requires a 16 inch barrel.

The red dot and similar are not new, but the use on pistols has taken off the last decade, a red dot may be on a

crossbow, a pistol, a shotgun, a rifle, 😊 and red dots and lasers are now found on every sling shot, and certainly on the common arrow slinging slingshot (ASS.)

So now, if you have a red dot on an AR pistol, it does not mean that it is a rifle, unless some point of the gun actually touches you above the waist when you are normally firing it, but, it it touches, then the red dot makes it an SBR.

Everybody got it. You must read all 300 pages or so of the new rule to understand it.

 

[reverendg]

But you can legally have cool stuff with tax stamps!

I think that’s what the original American gun nuts said about The 2d amendment.

 

[Wicked109]

Well - is a deep subject for a shallow mind. I have digested the new guidance and have removed the Shockwave stabalizer brace to avoid any issues. I also removed the flip up sights since they have a specific eye location requirement that does need to be shouldered to work and would classify my firearm as a SBR. I did leave my Red Dot on since it is not eye relief dependent and works as long as you can see the red dot is on the target.

Begs the question, What about being able to fire a regular pistol when it is braced against the shoulder? It can be done using your other arm. The stability is extraordinary and my accuracy is significantly better. The BLT Method...Bend Lock Target

 

[PaleHawkDown]

Wait until the ATF finds out AR pistols can have sling mounts, and you can easily stabilize with a taut sling.

 

[austinjoe13]

If I’m understanding this correctly, if I DID register, it’s an SBR, and I could ditch the brace and have a real stock?

 

[blaster]

If I’m understanding this correctly, if I DID register, it’s an SBR, and I could ditch the brace and have a real stock?

thats what it sounds like to me too.
at first, I said NO to registering them. but now thinking about it, if they are going to waive the $200 and make it easier to do the SBR thing, I just might have to take them up on it. my pistols are all on the books anyway. then I can get rid of the braces and put real stocks on them. I'll have to think about this some more.

 

[austinjoe13]

thats what it sounds like to me too.
at first, I said NO to registering them. but now thinking about it, if they are going to waive the $200 and make it easier to do the SBR thing, I just might have to take them up on it. my pistols are all on the books anyway. then I can get rid of the braces and put real stocks on them. I'll have to think about this some more.

Yeah, I hear you. I’ve been wanting to have an SBR, anyways.

 

[Wicked109]

I had a specific purpose in mind when I built my AR pistol... Home Defense and practice at the range

• Ammo capacity greater then 15 rounds - YES
• Does it need to be shouldered to fire - NO
• Must it operate one handed - YES
• Could you fire it from waist level - YES
• Would it be suitable for close quarter operation - YES
• Cool Factor - YES 😀 (but new guidance has reduced it a bit to be compliant)
• Able to swap uppers (5.56, 300BO, 350 Legend) without issue - YES

Note: I believe once you register your firearm as an SBR you have to identify it's S/N and caliber and you might be stuck.

Just food for thought.

 

[Hondokid]

This was just sent out by an FFL I have dealt with in the past. BTW - he is also a lawyer. Maybe this can shed some light on questions as well as generate more.

"I was fortunate enough to attend a presentation from the new ATF Director at the SHOT Show earlier this week. He and his team spent over an hour on three key points: the new federal legislation’s impact on the purchase of guns from individuals between 18 and 21, changes to the Form 4473 (the form you fill out to purchase a gun from a licensed dealer) and the new final rule on pistol stabilizing braces.

On the new legislation, the very simple overview is that those between the ages of 18 and 21 who try to purchase firearms in states where purchases are legal under the age of 21 (in Florida, you must be 21 to purchase a firearm unless you are in law enforcement, so this does not really “apply” to us) there can now be an up to 10 day wait while an enhanced background check is undertaken

On the 4473, there are a few new questions confirming that your intended use of the firearm is not for committing a crime or giving it to someone else to commit a crime, that expand the definition of exclusions for domestic violence-related offenses, and that require the dealer to indicate if they are assisting in a private party transaction. Otherwise, pretty much the same form and nothing in the changes affects the timing of the clearance process or creates any new burdens on a buyer.

Of course, the biggest issue on the table was the new regulation (Final Rule 2021R-08F) governing Pistol Stabilizing Braces (PSB). These were approved by the ATF in 2012 or so for assisting the disabled in stabilizing a rifle for shooting. Regardless of this intent, the market for PSBs morphed quickly to where many of those produced now do not even pretend that they are for anything more than allowing the non-disabled to buy a “pistol” with a barrel under the 16-inch legal length for a rifle and use a collapsible or full length PSB stock to use the “pistol” like a rifle. However, with a barrel under 16 inches, when the weapon is used with a stock that can be used against the shoulder, the “pistol” becomes a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) and SBR’s must be registered just like fully automatic weapons and suppressors.

So, seeing that the exception has pretty much swallowed the rule, the ATF has now changed the regulation (Rule) to require registration of weapons with barrels under 16 inches and equipped with a PSB. Certainly, there will be legal challenges to the changes, but for now the revised rule is the law.

Short and sweet, here is what you need to know if you are a non-FFL owner of a weapon that was: (1) purchased with a barrel less than 16” and equipped with a PSB or (2) you added a PSB to a weapon with a barrel less than 16”. First, you can go on the ATF.gov site and see if your firearm might already be compliant (links at end of this article). Second, if you are truly disabled, see if your disability fits the categories of disability for which a stabilizing brace is authorized. In either of those scenarios, you do not have to take any further action.

However, for the vast majority of owners of weapons with PSBs attached, you need to be very aware of, and comply with, the following:

1. The Rule does not become effective until it is published in the Federal Register and as of this writing (Saturday, January 21, 2023) that has not yet occurred.

2. Once published, you have 120 days to comply with the Rule by taking one of the following actions:

a. Remove the short barrel and attach a 16 inch or longer barrel to the firearm;

b. Permanently remove the PSB and dispose of or alter it such that it cannot be reattached;

c. Destroy the firearm;

d. Permanently surrender the firearm to your local ATF office; or,

e. Register the weapon as a SBR (the ATF is waiving the $ 200 normally associated with such a registration).


If I am betting, options b, c and d will be the least used. So, it’s either realistically reattach the PSB to a qualifying non-SBR (option a) or register it (option f).

To register your firearm and avoid the $200 SOT, you must act within the 120 day window. It is actually very simple to do. First, establish an e-forms account at ATF.gov (you can use the paper form option, but it will likely be processed after the eForms are done). Once you are registered, login and you will be presented a number of options for forms to file; select Form 1. Follow the instructions. You will still need to get your fingerprint cards, etc,, to the ATF, either electronically or by mail, and you can use (“adopt”) the serial number of the existing weapon as the serial number of the “new” SBR without going through an engraving process. You do NOT HAVE TO WAIT FOR APPROVAL to be in compliance....once you submit, the registration is sufficient to bring you into compliance unless it is denied somewhere along the way, at which point your options are now a. - d. above.

More info can be found at: www.atf.gov. Search for “Frequently Asked Questions for Final Rule 2021R-08F” or “ Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” ”. The latter spot has a number of links including a 34 page PowerPoint to determine if you or your setup is already in compliance with the Rule or you need to take action within the 120 days.

It’s very confusing and controversial. But, once published, these are the rules until changed. I would highly recommend we all follow them because the ATF is taking this very seriously."

 

[Get Out]

Wait until the ATF finds out AR pistols can have sling mounts, and you can easily stabilize with a taut sling.

Now you've gone and done it. The ATF is going to try to ban or regulate slings now.
We used to tighten up our pistol lanyards on the .45 and 9mm and when we pulled our weapon the lanyard stabilized the weapon some.

ATF shouldn't be able to make policy to ban or regulate anything.

 

[billt]

Where are all the guys who constantly expel oxygen saying, "The ATF CANNOT pass laws!"???? Well guess what, they just did.

 

[blaster]

thats what it sounds like to me too.
at first, I said NO to registering them. but now thinking about it, if they are going to waive the $200 and make it easier to do the SBR thing,

I saw a video by G.O.A. with a lawyer telling how you could be incriminating yourself. because in this new process, your pistol is now called an SBR before your paperwork is approved. normally the Form 1 has to be approved before you can make the SBR. so, this has the possibility of being a sneaky trap! of course, none of our honorable Gov't agencies and especially the BATF would ever do something so devious.
I think I will just take off my braces if this rule actually comes to pass.

 

[austinjoe13]

I saw a video by G.O.A. with a lawyer telling how you could be incriminating yourself. because in this new process, your pistol is now called an SBR before your paperwork is approved. normally the Form 1 has to be approved before you can make the SBR. so, this has the possibility of being a sneaky trap! of course, none of our honorable Gov't agencies and especially the BATF would ever do something so devious.
I think I will just take off my braces if this rule actually comes to pass.

Yeah, they’re a bunch of sneaks and scammers. I’d want to explore the stock idea before anything else.

 

[Jack Flash]

I had a specific purpose in mind when I built my AR pistol... Home Defense and practice at the range

• Ammo capacity greater then 15 rounds - YES
• Does it need to be shouldered to fire - NO
• Must it operate one handed - YES
• Could you fire it from waist level - YES
• Would it be suitable for close quarter operation - YES
• Cool Factor - YES 😀 (but new guidance has reduced it a bit to be compliant)
• Able to swap uppers (5.56, 300BO, 350 Legend) without issue - YES

Note: I believe once you register your firearm as an SBR you have to identify it's S/N and caliber and you might be stuck.

Just food for thought.

I have 2 AR lowers stamped as SBR's. I can change anything as far as the upper, length, and caliber. BUT I have to be able to put it back to the length and caliber it was registered as.

One of mine is registered at 10.5" and the other at 11.5". If for some reason the ATF came to my house, all I have to do is prove I can make it as it was registered.