Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Eric, Jun 15, 2002.

  1. Eric

    Eric Guest

    I don't know about you guys, but to me it seems obvious.

    The Arabs/muslims are attempting to bring law-suits because they are being unfairly targeted for searches and security checks...let's see:

    1972- Israeli Olympic team executed. Who did that, male muslim fundamentalist between 18 and 40.

    Who took over the embassy in Tehran and held all the hostages, male muslim fundamentalist between 18 and 40.

    Now, who blew up the Pan Am flight over Lockerby Scotland, oh yeah, male muslim fundamentalist between 18 and 40.

    Who was responsible for the first WTC bombing in 1993, that's right, male muslim fundamentalist between 18 and 40.

    OK, who was responsible for bombing the US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya-you guessed it, male muslim fundamentalist between 18 and 40.

    Don't forget about the big one, 9-11, again, male muslim fundamentalist between 18 and 40.

    Who exactly brutally murdered David Pearle-right again, male muslim fundamentalist between 18 and 40.

    Maybe it's just me but it seems pretty obvious to me.

    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    the 2 types of profiling

    I know that some of you will be surprised that I believe in this, but I support racial profiling... if its done right!

    Type 1: Statistics show that serial killings are committed by white males in their 30's, single, are loners and possibly live at home. Using this profile to question men that look suspicious is acceptable.

    Type 2: You see a car full of (pick your race, or group) and based on this info you assume they must be doing something wrong so you pull them over to do a license check, etc... This I oppose.

  3. colt45

    colt45 Guest

    Same thing isn't it?
    I have a budy that now works for the DC police dept. he tells me that 78% of the stolen cars in the DC area are taken black youths between 17 and 24 in groups of two or more.
    and that 94% of the armed roberies are commited by you guesd it black youths between 17 and 24 in groups of two or more.
    So if he sees a group of youths in a car that look to meet this profiel who is he suposed to pull over the 70 yr old asian female driveing by herself.
    Yes the statistics in his area suport this kind of profieling but when we lump that in with the areas that are doing it with out probable cause and then say all profieling of this type is a bad thing who's winning her?

    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    If he sees a black mercedes that matches the year and model of one reported stolen then by all means he is more than free to pull it over. But to say I see two blacks in a car so I must pull them over to see what laws they have broken is not ok in my book. Besides get behind the car, call in the tags, see if they bolt if you get behind them, there is all the just cause you need.

    To allow this type of absolute power in the hands of government is very dangerous. I also oppose seatbelt checks and dl checks. Somehow the 4th amendment just means so much to me.

    Unfortunately it is the bad apples that ruin the bunch as well as the race whores who perpetuate this crap instead of looking within the black population and trying to reduce the rate of black youth who enslave themseles in a life of crime.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2002
  5. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

    Hmmm. I seem to match type one, but I do support that type of profiling. Hypothetically, if that profile is accurate, AND there there were serial killings in the Houston area AND the Sheriff's Department had reason to believe the perp lived in my neighborhood, I would support questioning all single white males in their 30s in my subdivision, myself included.
  6. Rave

    Rave G&G Evangelist

    Phacopsrana,why should we be surprised that you support racial profiling?
    If one is looking for serial killers it is probable that type one did it.
    If one is looking for the usual violent crime it is probable that type two did it.
    I don't agree that one should stop type one and not type two unless you are looking for a serial killer.
    For all other crimes statistically it will probably be type two.
    You might want to look your posting over and think about it.:cool:
  7. colt45

    colt45 Guest

    I supose I should have used a diferent situation than a stolen car since it can be checked by the plate.
    Ok, I'll try this again, A car full 17 to 25 lets say taht over 80% of drug tarnsports thropugh you area are done by a car load of youths in this age bracket. and lets jsut say they are asians who are the 80% so If I pull over a car full of asian youth driveing through the area and find drugs its a good bust and everyone is proud to see that thier LEO's are on the ball.
    But lets say I don't find drugs now all of a suden I'm racial profieling and I'm a bad cop and my department is racist.
    You can't have it both ways, cops are trained to look for something out of the norm and if through the corse of thier dutys they notice a patern of a sertain group to be likely to be breaking a sertain law or laws they will look there first.
    Its not racial (some bad apples maybe) its called looking at the most likely first. If a white male in his 30's is more likely a suspect of a serial murder than why is it not just as likely that a black youth 18-24 is the more likely to be a drug dealer if the statistics have allready proven this why is it racial profieling.
    If a white cop pulls over black kids just takeing a joyride no laws broken its racial profieling. If a black cop pulls over a car load of white kids doing the same thing its called good police work.
    There is no sence agrueing this with most folkes they just don't see it as numbers they see it as balck and white and you just can not make them see it no mater what you show them.

    NRAJOE YOU TALKIN' TO ME!? Forum Contributor

    If your a muslim male in this country right now, bummer,sorry about your luck but we're gonna have to stop ya and check ya out...sorry Charlie... er, I mean Abdeeb!

    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    HMMM rethinking and Hell No!

    The fourth amendment guarantees every american, not just certain ages, races or numbers of people the right against unreasonable search and siezure. It is but a small price to pay for the freedom we are granted by the constitution.

    If anyone truly supports the government stopping people without any probable cause for no reason other than to see if they have committed a crime, then they should have no problem with the government doing a house by house search 24/7 in order to alleviate crime. I have nothing to hide, do any of you. It matters not if you have done anything wrong, yet only matters whether the government has sufficient evidence to hold you and search your belongings.

    Remember what Ben said, if you give up security for freedom, you deserve neither. I am not going to play the scenario game on this topic as it does not matter. Constitutional rights are absolute and cannot be reasoned out of, hard as others may try.

    Out of curiosity has anyone heard of black officers being accused of racial profiling of blacks?
  10. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

    There is a difference between asking questions and search/seizure.

    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    Calling the LEO's

    Can you tell me what guidelines you use to constitute "just cause" when searching a vehicle.

    Does anyone know of any legal precedents involving profiling or racial profiling.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2002
  12. Personal profiling is turning one's attention towards a person, or groups of persons, based upon your perception or beliefs of what he/she or they are capable of doing based upon past experiences without evidence or suspicion based on reasonable belief or causes.

    Criminal profiling adds the elements of facts, cooberated information, suspicion based on reasonable belief (key words here) or causes.

    Every investigator of any crime develops theories based upon profiling. But they shouldn't or don't act upon those feelings without more facts or suspicions about that person or groups.

    Criminal profiling is fine. It will happen as long as we have civil law enforcement. It is needed.

    For example, if you are told at a briefing that the department has received complaints or info that a group of "X (sexed) persons, "X" (race) between the ages of "X" and "X" and driving a "X" colored "X" van has been randomly performing drive by shootings then it's appropriate to stop and question if all the "X"s are present.

    If you, however, stop a group with all "Y, or the marjority of "Y"), because it's your belief they are more likely to do it, then it's personal profiling.

    There are no case laws, in Arizona, that I know of where any Judge has defined personal profiling since every instance may be different. In other words, to one Judge and/or jury meeting 6 out of 10 "X"s, let's say, is not personal profiling but to another it would be.

    For the most part when someone screams personal, or racial, profiling that, too, is their subjective opinion. Unless, of course, you know all of the fact surrounding the situation.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2002
  13. I agree with Klause to a point. If I fall into a profile category then check me out, I have nothing to hide. Now if the muslim community cannot comprehend this due to recent events then they need a one way ticket back to their homeland.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2002
  14. colt45

    colt45 Guest

    as much as I seem to disagree with Phacopsrana on profieling we can't forget that for some of these muslims this is thier homeland and they are entitled to the same rights as other Americans, those who are not citizens of the US should not be aforded this protection and need to be looked at harder.
    Its a fine line we are walking and I for one am starting to get nervouse about how far we are going with this, this is going way behond looking for car thievs and drug runners.
    I can't belive I just said that.
  15. Ok I agree if they are citizens--then yes they deserve all the rights that the constitution lays down. but there are muslims who are U.S. citizens and still seek our demise. I am from the old belief-Love It Or Leave It.
  16. colt45

    colt45 Guest

    On that one my friend I 'm with you 100%
  17. Ok-- I finally got one right, it's about time. Thank you sir.

    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    I think Dale said it better than I. Colt you and I agree with where this is starting to go..... and that is what scares the begeesus out of me.
  19. Rave

    Rave G&G Evangelist

    my daughter majored in criminology in college,was going into FBI until she saw what was happening and got her mind right.
    The FBI crime statistics year after year support type one and type two.
    I didn't infer that we should stop folks just because they match a profile,but if we are going to get serious we can't be PC and stop only type one and not type two as some think will be OK.
    If we are going to profile let's pull our heads out and use a little common sense,someting that is sorely lacking in these PC times.
    We can always keep doing what we always do and still be number one,like a huge herd of sheep we can keep letting the wolves pick off the ones at the edge,the herd will survive due to sheer numbers.
    The gummint is going to do what it's going to do and that's the way it is.
    If we want to hide behind political correctness so be it!:fuss: :fuss: :confused:
  20. Shaun

    Shaun G&G Evangelist

    we all agree there are good and bad types of profiling and we all support good profiling like the terrorists and people who fit the proper settings of a crime being committed. I have seen it used wrong even by the average citizens. I once got a call for a guy walking in a fairly rich neighborhood. Basically the older white woman saw a black male walking down the street and looking at houses and she called to have him arrested. I had to laugh at her when I showed up to talk with her and point out he was wearing a suit that probably had cost more than my uniform including belt and gun. And that he was actually a banker looking to buy in the area - he stopped us to ask about the crime rates while we were heading to her residence. My partner at the time was as mad at this woman as I was we proceeded to tell her that walking down the street and looking at the houses was legal and that her assumptions were wrong.