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Remington Model 700 Accidental Discharges

Discussion in 'Remington' started by SwedeSteve, Oct 20, 2010.

  1. bobvonb

    bobvonb G&G Evangelist

    I guess the question is then, has this been corrected in any Mod 700s or is the solution a replacement trigger or something else?
     
  2. Mooseman684

    Mooseman684 G&G Newbie

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    The solution is ...Dont use the safety , only chamber a round right before you shoot ! Open the bolt if you need to put it back in safe mode...Or Buy a Winchester !
     

  3. SwedeSteve

    SwedeSteve Freedom Zealot Forum Contributor

    Did any of you actually watch the show ?? The guy that designed the trigger said he warned Remington several times about this flaw, and provided them with a modification to correct it that would cost 5.5 cents per rifle. They blew him off !!

    Did you guys see the videos of Police Swat members and Marine Snipers demonstrating how it can accidentally discharge ?? Did you see that they did this without touching anything on the rifle but the safety ??
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2010
  4. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    I don't have any good answers or advice,but most mention someone messing with/adjusting the trigger.An experience I had was with a '96 Swede that I decided to "sweeten" the trigger by using my dear sweet "DREMEL" on the sear/firing pin,(by eyeball only of course).I did a beautiful job of grinding just the right amount of metal off and changing the angle perfectly.Took it out and at first with empty chamber tried banging the stock and forearm on things with and without the safety enguaged.Everything was great,no firing when banged on things.I proceded to shoot a few rounds and everything was copesetic.A real miraculous improvement.Then,for unknown reasons,I tried firing it with safety on.Didn't fire.Flip safety,"BOOM".Tried it again intentionally pulling trigger with safety on.No fire.Flip safety without touching trigger "BOOM".Went to house,made order for original parts from Numrich,waited,installed,no problems since.Works great.After that experience I never flip safeties without extra caution.I wonder if wear might be some of Rem,s problem and amaturish adjusting without proper testing after the rest?I do believe any firearm of any action type or MFG that doesn't have that slide bar blocking the firing pin could discharge when the safety is disenguaged,and I really don't trust them.
     
  5. SwedeSteve

    SwedeSteve Freedom Zealot Forum Contributor

    I agree with you Sam, but playing with the trigger, or really dirty actions do not explain away the designer warning them about this trouble with the original design.
    I too prefer a firing pin block !!
     
  6. PAPA G

    PAPA G G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    only saftey issue i had with my Sportsman 78 was after getting it the saftey locked up in the "ON" position, and had to take it to local warranty gunsmith. i never had it apart, or messed with the trigger.
     
  7. 99dragon99

    99dragon99 G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    As mentioned here before, I never trust a safety.

    I have an older shotgun (SxS) that I have used a few times and it has never had an un-intended fire. Walking across a beaver dam behind a friend of mine, I removed the shells. As we were walking across he shot at a couple of ducks. If I would have had shells in, I could have taken a follow up shot. I told him that I took the shells out while following him across the dam, he asked why "Didn't you have the safety on?".

    I don't care. I don't trust a safety, especially if I am in a possible dangerous situation. I am not always the most coordinated person in the world and falling off a beaver dam might be one of the accidents that I might have.

    His answer was "Just make sure you shoot me in the head." If I am falling, I think I have more pressing concerns than to aim for his head...

    Remington, was one of the rifles that I was looking at buying. I now have a few mausers and mosins to shoot with, so I won't be buying one soon regardless. I would still buy one, but I trust the safety just as much as every other one.
     
  8. SilverRun

    SilverRun G&G Enthusiast

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    This seems like it may be a legit problem. I looked through the information at the first link. If you dig deep enough, you will find that remington changed the Model 700 trigger in 2007 (I think) to address the problems. They still use the old "bad" trigger in the Model 770 and maybe a few others. So, the new Model 700's should be ok, but if I owned an older model, i think I would sell it or get a new trigger group...
     
  9. bobvonb

    bobvonb G&G Evangelist

    ^ that's more at addressing the question. The suggestion is that recently Rem changed the trigger so a new Rem 700 should not have the problem. I was hoping someone in the know would say something like, "replace with a Timney (for example) and the problem is solved" or "so-and-so makes a safety replacement that solves the problem".

    I had my 700 ADL for about 40 years and didn't have the problem. I do remember mashing hard on the trigger with the safety on in the heat of the moment (ie, after sprinting 200 yds at 11,000' [that will wind a flatlander] at another client's elk that was getting away wounded and the guide YELLING at me to SHOOT), and then when 2 molecules of oxygen reached my brain again flipping the saftey off without the gun firing until I pulled the trigger again.

    I'm in that phase of life called 'lets play with mil-surps' but a 700 LSS does have an appeal but I'd like to know absolutely that it is safe. I recorded the show and will watch it later today.
     
  10. SwedeSteve

    SwedeSteve Freedom Zealot Forum Contributor

    I was taught by my Grandpa and my Dad to always unload guns when crossing obstacles (fences, creeks, etc.). There was never any doubt what to do. When in a deer camp we would clear our rifles before entering camp each day, announce that our rifle was clear, and show it to anyone to verify it. Seems a bit tedious, but I am here typing this !!

    I posted this because it was the first I ever heard of it. Not because I was trying to bash Remingtons !! I thought that there might be others like me, and we should always help to keep our "Fellers" informed when it comes to safety. I posted it in the Powder Keg so as many as possible could read and comment. Someone decided it needed to be here and moved it. Then someone else posted it again in the Powder Keg and somebody felt it was important enough to leave it there.
     
  11. fedupdon

    fedupdon G&G Newbie

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    remington

    saw the show and recorded it ckek all my 700 none woul fire like the ones in the show dont think they are all bad some may be abused or not clean but remington has lost its rep in my eyes will stick wioth winchester ruger or other co guns to bad liked the 700
     
  12. bobvonb

    bobvonb G&G Evangelist

    maybe some good deals can be found for 700s that a trigger switch out can make right.
     
  13. SwedeSteve

    SwedeSteve Freedom Zealot Forum Contributor

    Well, I don't have any to worry about. But I am glad this was aired to let people know and do some self-testing. Remington has to come clean on this before I will buy any of their products.
     
  14. BudW

    BudW G&G Evangelist

  15. bobvonb

    bobvonb G&G Evangelist

    ^ I don't know. I looked at most of the Rem replies and found them to be lacking. They really didn't refute the trigger defect but concentrated on other possible AD reasons, valid ones to be sure, but off point or they just critisized the broadcast in general.

    I say again I had a 700 for 40 years and found no problem, but for sure I'd replace the trigger on any older 700 I might procure unless shown facts (like diagrams of the trigger mechanism) that an AD could not occur by safety movement or bolt movement.
     
  16. GlennF

    GlennF G&G Regular

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    Remington de-bunks the incident that the rifle shot through the wall on a video on their website. The gun was fired by the 14 year old in the same room the woman was sitting in. Drawings made during the investigation prove it. It is typical of yellow journalism.

    Early 700's required the safety being off and on fire to open the bolt to unload. I have a 1989 vintage 700 that can be opened with the safety on.
     
  17. COYOTE10663

    COYOTE10663 G&G Newbie

    I am torn on this, and have been every since i watched the show.
    On one hand, I love, and own, remingtons and have never had a problem with them.

    HOWEVER, on the other hand, the INVENTOR of the dang'ed thing CLEARLY stated back in 1940something that it WAS a desighn <sp?> flaw ant it NEEDED to be fixed! And Remington did NOTHING!

    Sorry guys, my Rem's will stay parked in the gun safe untill this gets resolved. Truthfully, I like my Winchester Mod 70 better anyway! lol.
    My Savages, not so much. (Even though they are the most accurate of the bunch)
     
  18. Alas for Remington, Mooseman has it absolutely correct. One attorney had a Remington defense witness on the stand in a suit by a hunter who got shot in the foot: the witness while handling the rifle tripped off the safety and the firing mechanism of the rifle clicked. Had a cartridge been in the chamber the gun would have discharged. Result: the jury awarded the hunter $17 million. The real problem is that in the design of the rifle there is no positive lock on the firing mechanism. The show had the original designer of the gun on camera. Now 98 years old and still pretty darn sharp, he explained that he tried to get the design modified for years but the best he could do was to institute a quality control step to identify guns that were initially prone to the problem at the time of manufacture (which of course would not catch problems due to wear, dirt, or tinkering by the owner). The QC check was eliminated after he retired in 1975. The claimed failure rate is about 2%.

    I loved my 700 and shot it a lot for many years: it was accurate and really nice to shoot. I can no longer risk heavy recoil due to a medical condition, so I gave the rifle to my younger son a few years ago. Upon seeing this program I immediately called him and warned him. Use of the rifle will be his decision. In the very least I hope he opts to get the factory modification for earlier 700's to allow the bolt to be opened with the safety still engaged.

    Fellow shooters, this is a real problem, not a contrived one. Please observe every precaution possible if you choose to use a Model 700.
     
  19. EDVLC7

    EDVLC7 G&G Newbie

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    So I take it the flaw is the trigger assembly. Would switching to a timney or Jewel trigger fix the problem?
     
  20. You know this whole subject is so ludicrous that it is hard to even respond to it.

    When the bolt is closed on a Remington Model 700 - there is no way that dirt or twigs or sticks can get inside of the action.

    Furthermore - any idiot that never cleans a gun is the stupidest person in the world.

    Two little screws - maybe 3 on some models and the trigger guard comes down and the action is removed from the stock. Then you can take anything from compressed air to Carburetor cleaner and clean the trigger group in about 3 seconds.

    You can then take a cotton swab and clean off anything left over, do another round of carburetor cleaner and then a slight application of WD 40 and you are good for another 5 years.

    The Original design of the Model 721 was a copy-write infringement of the Mauser action. Instead of just paying Mauser a couple of pennies per every gun produced - they changed the way the trigger group was made - just enough so that their trigger would not be a copy of the Mauser.

    Anyone that has owned a 721 - which I have not cleaned one since yesterday, will tell you the only thing wrong with the 721 was that there was no half safety where you could open the bolt action to unload the rifle while the safety was still in place.

    I too am a fool, I once tried to unload the 721 30/06 with a pair of gloves on and got my finger too close to the trigger and it accidentally discharged and almost shot the family Blazer. That was 1982 and I was 18 and I felt real bad and I took a beating from my dad about it.

    Remington admitted that they had made a mistake and they had a remedy that they offered for free - under warranty - for a gun that was even then about 27 years old - because of a liability lawsuit.

    My dad's feelings was to leave it alone and ignore the warranty and not have the rifle repaired and it has sat on the gun rack ever since.

    I called it from the start - about people who did not know what they were doing - who tried to "make it better" and adjust their own trigger.
    This is the reason why we pay to go to school to become gunsmiths and why we pay gunsmiths to do gun repairs for us.
    A man who works in a bank would not try to repair his gas forced air furnace, nor would a person who works in a office attempt to put new asphalt shingles on his main roof of his house in a weekend. We pay people to do our dirty work.
    Then when it comes to guns and automobiles - everyone refuses to pay a gunsmith or a auto mechanic to repair their guns or their vehicles until the condition of the gun or the vehicle gets so bad that you cannot use it anymore.

    That is probably the reason why places like Harbor Freight has been in business so long. They sell cheap, crappy tools that people buys - but most people never use, or some people uses it once or twice and it breaks and they are too ashamed to take it back and so it either goes in the garbage or is given away.

    The problem is that a rifle is a tangible item that is worth several hundred dollars and almost no one has ever just thrown one away that I know of. So people with a basic knowledge of how a gun works thinks that they can fix it themselves.
    Only they usually end up doing more damage then what the rifle is worth.

    Every internet forum - pertaining to guns has a whole section right now about people who are fearful of their Remington rifle because some fool messed with his and it accidentally went off.

    I have seen rifles that were dropped on sheep hunts and elk hunts where they fell a hundred feet, onto rocks and the stock broke completely in two, that the rifle never discharged. Ones where even the action was bent and you couldn't open the bolt to get the shell out of the action - that did not discharge. So can anybody with any intelligence explain to me - how these few rifles did discharge - if no one messed with them in the first place?

    I could see one or two - where someone used it to death to the point of where it wore out and it discharged - due to neglect and wear and not because of design, but not 100's of them.

    If Remington sets the trigger at 8 lbs of pull - then you could say it has a crappy trigger. But if it sets the pull at 4 lbs - you are better off to leave it alone.

    Not one Internet post that tells how to set the trigger for a model 700 includes a person buying a gauge that measures how much pull you have on your rifle.
    Even a cheap fish scale can measure the amount of pull - but people disregard all that and just do what they will and when they figure that it is good enough - will put everything back together - after doing it wrong and then they blame it on the gun and not on the person that adjusted the trigger.

    Give me a break.

    If GM makes a 1/2 truck with 4 wheel disc brakes and after 5 years the brakes wears out and you decide to put new brakes on the truck yourself and you do it wrong and you get into a accident because you did not do the job right and the brakes failed - is it GM's fault? I don't think so!