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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am looking for a good CCW that is small enough to carry on a daily basis. I am considering the SA: EMP because it is reliable, well crafted, and has a good reputation, from what I have read. However, the only ones I see online are going for a grand. Should I expect to see the same price at a gun show? What are my odds of finding one of these in the wild? (I've never been to a gun show.) Does anybody have a better suggestion?
 

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I like the Para-Ordnance Warthog, but there are a bunch of good compacts on the market and Springfield makes a fine gun.
 

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Look at para-ord.com. The Warthog is small, very reliable, and has 10 rounds of .45 ammo.My favorite is the Para carry 12 with the light doubleaction trigger. There are lots of fine arms out there. Let us know what you choose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The problem I'm having is that I don't know how to compare the guns. What makes one gun better than the other? Why do you guys prefer the Warthog over the EMP I mentioned?
 

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DM, I know exactly what you mean by how can you know? That is why I rely heavly on "Gun Tasts Magizine" In case you are not familure with GT mag, it is the firearm equivilent of "Consumer Reports". Shy of actually shooting the gun you are interested in IMHO GT mag is your best source of truely unbiased expert opinions and evaluations of the firearms thay test.

GT mag did a review of the Springfield EMP and gave it their highest marks in all passible catigories. They stated that thay felt the Springfield EMP was the finest 9mm for CC out there.

Although it is rather pricey at over $1200, once it is available in 40S&W (Springfield has stated a EMP in 40S&W is in the works) I will be hard pressed not to buy one for CC. I have handeled several different EMPs, and thay all impressed me with their near flawless level of quality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
DM, I know exactly what you mean by how can you know? That is why I rely heavly on "Gun Tasts Magizine" In case you are not familure with GT mag, it is the firearm equivilent of "Consumer Reports". Shy of actually shooting the gun you are interested in IMHO GT mag is your best source of truely unbiased expert opinions and evaluations of the firearms thay test.
GT mag did a review of the Springfield EMP and gave it their highest marks in all passible catigories. They stated that thay felt the Springfield EMP was the finest 9mm for CC out there.
Although it is rather pricey at over $1200, once it is available in 40S&W (Springfield has stated a EMP in 40S&W is in the works) I will be hard pressed not to buy one for CC. I have handeled several different EMPs, and thay all impressed me with their near flawless level of quality.
Thank you. Why do you prefer the 40S&W over the 9mm? Or the 45 for that matter?
 

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You are welcome. Funny you should ask why I prefer other calibers over the 9x19mm. I say that because I have lately been wondering if the tremendous improvements made in the last few years in HP bullet design in terms of terminal performance has created enough concrete proof or evidence that has now conclusively proven that 9x19mm is on a equal footing or parr with semi-auto calibers like the .40S&W, or .45ACP? I speek of the latest generation of bullets avilable in 9x19mm like the Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, or Remington Golden Saber.

My dislike or distrust of the 9x19mm may be some what unfair and possably founded in less than scientific beleifs, but the fallowing information accounts for 99% of my dislike/trust for the 9x19mm.

About 20 years ago, life long friend of mine desided to persue a job in law enforcement, so I bought him the best book I could find on helping him stay alive while performing his duties. This IMHO was a well thought out gift as he would be working in Chicago. The book I bought him was entitled "Street Servival" a comprehensive guide for law enforcement officers and how to stay alive while while doing thier job. In the book was a chapter devoted just how difficult it can be to make a suspect sercome to gun shot wounds. Thay detailed no less than three seperate instances were while shooting 9x19mm ammo, attackers with stood meny, meny mutiple hits, before finally becoming incapsitated by gun fire. Two such insidents realy stood out, one the asilent absorbed over 12 hits from 9mm ammo, but the most amaizing example (I feel amaizing is a truely over used word but not in this instance) detailed in the book was a asilent that absorbed over 18, yes thats 18 hits from 9x19mm ammo and kept going untill he was struck in the head. Lastly I have read reports to numerous to remember how disatisfied our troops over in Iraq are with the lack of knock down power of their 92Fs firing 9x19mm ammo and are strongly voicing their wishes the US military return to the old stand by .45acp, or at the least the .40S&W.

Now I will grant you that all this poor performance I have listed is almost certianly atributed to the use of FMJ ammo in the 9x19mm, but still for the lack of a better term, the killing/stopping power of the .45acp has been proven above question by our troops during use in WW-II, Korea, and Viet Nam. From all the accounts I have read with use of the .45acp & 230grn FMJ ammo at around 800+fps VS. the Japs, Germans, VC, and NVA it was BANG-FLOP, BANG-FLOP.

So my present view and or opinion of the 9x19mm may be incorrect because of the awesome advanses in ammo design.

And I do not prefer the .40S&W over the .45acp, It is just in my CC semi-auto of choice does not come on .45acp, nore will the EMP be offered in .45acp as it is to long for the firearm, possably in .45gap though.

I have been spending ALOT of time on the net trying to resurch bullet performanc e as it applies to a self defence application and i have been quite serprised at what I have found so far.

The short version is with todays ammo it seems and I stress SEEMS, that all calibers are exsibiting more or less equal terminal performance when shot into balistic geliten that is first wraped with layers of cotton denium as long as thay are tested using the same type bullets. The steller stand out I have found so far have been:

<>Speer Gold Dots
<>Winchester Ranger
<>Remington Golden Saber
<>Corbon DPX

What surprised me the most is the over all poor performance of alot of bullets by Federal. The two most commonly poor performers were:

<>Hydro-Shoks Personal defence loads
<>Full metal jacket Personal defence loads.

For more on the same bullet tests I read go to:
wwwar15.com
wwwfirearmstacticle.com
wwwboxotruth.com

Well thats it for now.
Be well and take care.
Arthur.
 

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Basically I have been shooting for a number of years, and the .45ACP was my choice because of the stopping power, extra rounds and quick reload. Now as Arthur said the new rounds in 9mm may do the job just as effectively but I have not fired them. Go to gun shops, pawn shops, ect. and handle guns of various types and calibers and find those that feel good in your hand. Then go to shooting ranges that rent guns and try to find these models and see how you like shooting them. You will probably find at least one type that you really like. Let us know what you chose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You are welcome. Funny you should ask why I prefer other calibers over the 9x19mm. I say that because I have lately been wondering if the tremendous improvements made in the last few years in HP bullet design in terms of terminal performance has created enough concrete proof or evidence that has now conclusively proven that 9x19mm is on a equal footing or parr with semi-auto calibers like the .40S&W, or .45ACP? I speek of the latest generation of bullets avilable in 9x19mm like the Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, or Remington Golden Saber.
My dislike or distrust of the 9x19mm may be some what unfair and possably founded in less than scientific beleifs, but the fallowing information accounts for 99% of my dislike/trust for the 9x19mm.
About 20 years ago, life long friend of mine desided to persue a job in law enforcement, so I bought him the best book I could find on helping him stay alive while performing his duties. This IMHO was a well thought out gift as he would be working in Chicago. The book I bought him was entitled "Street Servival" a comprehensive guide for law enforcement officers and how to stay alive while while doing thier job. In the book was a chapter devoted just how difficult it can be to make a suspect sercome to gun shot wounds. Thay detailed no less than three seperate instances were while shooting 9x19mm ammo, attackers with stood meny, meny mutiple hits, before finally becoming incapsitated by gun fire. Two such insidents realy stood out, one the asilent absorbed over 12 hits from 9mm ammo, but the most amaizing example (I feel amaizing is a truely over used word but not in this instance) detailed in the book was a asilent that absorbed over 18, yes thats 18 hits from 9x19mm ammo and kept going untill he was struck in the head. Lastly I have read reports to numerous to remember how disatisfied our troops over in Iraq are with the lack of knock down power of their 92Fs firing 9x19mm ammo and are strongly voicing their wishes the US military return to the old stand by .45acp, or at the least the .40S&W.
Now I will grant you that all this poor performance I have listed is almost certianly atributed to the use of FMJ ammo in the 9x19mm, but still for the lack of a better term, the killing/stopping power of the .45acp has been proven above question by our troops during use in WW-II, Korea, and Viet Nam. From all the accounts I have read with use of the .45acp & 230grn FMJ ammo at around 800+fps VS. the Japs, Germans, VC, and NVA it was BANG-FLOP, BANG-FLOP.
So my present view and or opinion of the 9x19mm may be incorrect because of the awesome advanses in ammo design.
And I do not prefer the .40S&W over the .45acp, It is just in my CC semi-auto of choice does not come on .45acp, nore will the EMP be offered in .45acp as it is to long for the firearm, possably in .45gap though.
I have been spending ALOT of time on the net trying to resurch bullet performanc e as it applies to a self defence application and i have been quite serprised at what I have found so far.
The short version is with todays ammo it seems and I stress SEEMS, that all calibers are exsibiting more or less equal terminal performance when shot into balistic geliten that is first wraped with layers of cotton denium as long as thay are tested using the same type bullets. The steller stand out I have found so far have been:
<>Speer Gold Dots
<>Winchester Ranger
<>Remington Golden Saber
<>Corbon DPX
What surprised me the most is the over all poor performance of alot of bullets by Federal. The two most commonly poor performers were:
<>Hydro-Shoks Personal defence loads
<>Full metal jacket Personal defence loads.
For more on the same bullet tests I read go to:
wwwar15.com
wwwfirearmstacticle.com
wwwboxotruth.com
Well thats it for now.
Be well and take care.
Arthur.
Thank you. You make a very convincing argument. The EMP comes in a 45, doesn't it? I know it comes in 9mm but I think there's a 40 or 45 model as well. What are the downsides of going with the 45 over the 9mm?
 

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Smith and Wesson makes a real nice internal hammer revolver. It'll slide right in your pocket, won't snag on your pants and is easy to draw and with the right pocket holster, it won't show through the guns outline through your slacks' material.
Good luck.
 

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Just a warning though DT, if you choose a .45acp in a small carry gun, especially one made of polymer, beware of the recoil. It'll surprise you compared to a 9mm. I'm a huge believer in the idea of lobbing a big heavy piece of lead at the bg too but this big heavy piece of lead comes with a bit more recoil than the 9mm.
 

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Thank you. You make a very convincing argument. The EMP comes in a 45, doesn't it? I know it comes in 9mm but I think there's a 40 or 45 model as well. What are the downsides of going with the 45 over the 9mm?
Once again, thank you for your compliments. If i am to understand correctly, the EMP was spacificly designed around what Springfield termed "Short Action" HG rounds such as the 9x19mm, .40S&W, and possibly the .45GAP. I am 100% guessing here but if the EMP is a steller success I can immagine it also comming in .357SIG as we all know the .357SIG is simply a .40S&W necked down to .357. and the EMP is slated to be chambered in .40S&W so it would not be to difficult (at least in my limited gunsmithing knowledge) to get the EMP to work in .357SIG.

I am not 100% certain of this as I have read quite a few articles now on the EMP, but I am prety sure Springfield stated they could not get the EMP to work with the 45ACP as it is to long a cartrige, but i could be wrong. Sringfield most definately has a EMP in .40S&W in the works acording to their WS info and what I read at GT mag. As a matter of fact they actually list the EMP as available in .40S&W at their WS.

The only two draw backs I can think of concerning a EMP in 9x19mm VS .40S&W would be less capacity by 2-3 rounds and more recoil when shooting.
 

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My humble opnion is that the 1911 style of pistol might not be the best to carry, I know I know all you 1911 guys are going to yell at me. I love the 1911 pistol, just not really to ccw. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this style of 1911 only double action, meaning that you have to cock the hammer back before the first shot? And if it is? Isn't that going to take more time to dispatch a bad dude coming your way? Of course you could cock the hammer back and put it in your holster on the "SAFE" position however the way that I expect you might carry it would be close to your family jewels or maybe a buttcheek. Using this with an inside the pants type holster would make me nervous.

My personal opnion perhaps you should use a less exposed or hammerless hammer. Such as a Glock <-(not my first choice), or if you like SPRINGFIELD the XD sub compact is very nice. Springfield xds also have more capacity then the emp=9, xd=10 in the mag and one in the chamber. with an extended mag of 16, 16 rounds in the mag and one in the chamber thats a lot! For those that hate the shorty mag, there is a mag extender for your pinky finger that you can buy aftermarket. The xd also comes in .40 cal

And if it's a .45 that your looking for or .40 or even a 9mm maybe try a Kahr pistol, they are very light weight and have good reviews. While I like the 1911 style of pistol I don't know that it would be my first choice in ccw.

Springfield Armory

Kahr Arms / .45 ACP Models / PM Series
 

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Yes, but I do like hammers, and also decockers as well. I used to carry a s&w 5906 and loved it, but not as ccw. The glock type hammerless pistols are nice but as far as a full framed pistol to shoot I guess I would perfer the ones with hammers.

As far as the 1911 style hammer, and ccw. I would perfer a hammerless model. Why? It's easier. Less crap to think about, less crap to grab and snag on. You'll probably think I'm strange at my next comment, but I carry without one in the chamber in my ccw gun. (which if it was a 1911 it probably would be just fine for ccw) I guess it makes me a bit nervous to have one in the chamber with a hammerless gun. I guess that I am just old school that way. I know it kind of goes against what I have said earlier about the hammer and how it would take more time to pull the hammer back and shoot, but when in a stress situation the first thing to go is fine motor skills, such as cocking hammers, and pulling triggers etc. I figure that a rack of a slide is easier then a pull of a hammer. I believe that the israelis use a similar method when ccw. Check out the link, make sure you watch defending against a knife attack with a gun. They actualy rack the gun first. The funniest one is when the guy runs away and draws. Hey whatever works! I guess that I see this as a smart and safe way of carrying. But there is also the "Tom Cruise" way too LOL see other link. "Yo homie is that my briefcase?" Anyway I guess whatever you choose to do be confident in it, and to be confident that means practice, train, practice, train, practice and train somemore.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i7N6Y7OYwI"]YouTube - Krav Maga Training in Israel[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lCYPrUsAxg"]YouTube - Tom Cruise in Collateral[/ame]
 
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