Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

The USMC looking to revamp their tactics/gear?

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by TACAV, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    While randomly surfing youtube, this video popped up in my suggested video feed called

    U.S. Marines Integrates New Gear and Weapon Systems | Sea Dragon 2025

    After watching the video of some Marine combat elements undergoing some range time, and some live fire team assaults etc I started to notice a couple things...

    A lot of Marines using the new Heckler and Koch M27 IAR and a lot of suppressors.

    And these Marines didn't seem to be some sort of special operations type of unit.

    Real quick on the HK M27 IAR, it's a gas piston AR15 type rifle that is capable of full auto fire but is far more suited to select fire than the M4 carbine and far more accurate than either the M249 SAW or the 20" barreled M16A4. Several years ago it was adopted by the USMC to replace small numbers of the M249 SAW for use in urban combat where the bulky SAW was not well suited to running and gunning with a marine combat squad or fire team inside house to house/hall way to hallway fighting. Well documented in Iraq.

    The M27 which uses standard M16 magazines (and they were/are still working on implementing either a more reliable drum mag or quad stack magazine like the surefire 60 rounder at the time) the marines in combat found that short bursts from the highly accurate M27 was just as effective as longer bursts from the full auto primarily belt fed M249 in suppressing and engaging enemies.

    However the HK M27 is also capable of such a great deal of accuracy it can also act as Designated Marksman Rifle with a magnified optic.

    Essentially the M27 is smaller than the M16 (16.5" barrel) and more reliable, capable of sustained full auto fire more like a belt fed and is accurate enough to fulfill a DMR role..

    I had made the prediction a few years ago that I wouldn't be surprised if the USMC tried to just toss the M16 and this was a back door way of them trying to outfit every marine with an M27 in the future.

    So I started doing some research on Sea Dragon 2025.

    Essentially it's the combined suggested improvements list to the USMC's infantry doctrine as it concerns the down and dirty Marine infantry squad from all the lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan and how to proceed into the future.

    In short some of the biggest things to take away....

    -They want to increase the standard 13 man infantry squad to 15 marines.

    -three 4 marine fire teams... one assault fire team, one support fire team, one security fire team and one 3 marine command element.

    -They got rid of the SAW in the automatic rifleman role where appropriate (in urban warfare) and replaced it with the M27 configured as such,

    -They got rid of the assistant automatic rifleman and also gave him another M27... basically every marine in a fireteam has an M27....

    -They added in several secondary weapons including LAW rockets, Carl Gustov recoiless rifles, and several 40mm grenade launchers to more members of the fireteams/squad.

    -Totally upgraded the comms systems for the entire squad and command element.

    -The only marines still using M4's are the command elements in the support role.
    it is recommended that the new M27 should be the new standard Marine infantry rifle and the M4A1 should be relegated to a support weapon only.

    -Command elements marines who will be trained with linking up with combat drones directly for intelligence.

    -The addition of precision guided munitions available at the squad level vs the platoon level.

    -Fire team members who will be trained with UGV's (unmanned ground vehicles) aka small unarmed and armed combat robots... apparently the Russian infantry is doing this now so we are trying to as well.

    -The implementation of out fitting every marine with a rifle suppressor. Interestingly enough one of the primary reasons for this recommendation was (other than combat related reasons such as increased communication and firing position concealment) was to decrease VA costs and medical injuries of tinnitus and hearing loss after the fact.

    Apparently so far only one marine unit has been testing this new type of concept but so far it's really been working out well.

    The idea is to be able to make the marine infantry force stronger and more adaptable to fight asymmetric warfare.

    It will be interesting to see how much of these recommendations make it to full adaptation.
    EtherialOne, TXplt, Cyrano and 7 others like this.
  2. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist


    Just to stir the pot a bit, why are they concerned about a "more accurate" rifle, when most of their shooting is just spraying lead for suppression?
    PAPA G likes this.

  3. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor


    Apparently since the addition of the M27 they havn't been doing that as much (concerning that aspect and the use of the M27).

    They use the M27 (in the automatic rifleman mode) with a bipod system and 4 power ACOG. And 2-3 shot aimed bursts right on target is just as effective at distance at suppressing an enemy than several longer bursts from a less accurate belt fed M249.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  4. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist

    Geeee. Whodda thunk that poppin' a couple noggins with lead pills would cause them to think twice about sticking their heads up?????? LOL!!!!
    Cyrano, ChaZam, PAPA G and 1 other person like this.
  5. chesterwin

    chesterwin G&G Evangelist

    This appears to be similar thinking as to me replacing the 20" bull barrel on my Match Target AR last year with one of these:
    ChaZam, PAPA G, TACAV and 1 other person like this.
  6. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist


    The U.S. Marines must be spending too much time with the British Royal Marines. Some of those changes look suspiciously similar to what they did a while back.
    It's nice to see the Marines ahead of the other branches for a change. For nearly two centuries the Marines have been given the leftover crap the Navy and Army didn't want.
  7. I have hundreds of hours behind a HK m27...

    :) ;) :D
    PAPA G likes this.
  8. richardw

    richardw G&G Enthusiast

    I don't know how many years you spent in the Corps, but in my 30 years and since retiring I never saw that except as suppressing fire. Did you ever notice that almost even Marine infantryman has a scoped rifle? That is not there to spray bullets.

    In the battle for Falluja in Iraq 2 the Marines were assigned to clean the rat nest out. Army graves registration reported to command that an uncharacteristic number of enemy were killed by head shots. Investigators were called to determine if assignations had taken place. They could not fins a single incidence of close up head shots. one shot - one kill is still the Marine mantra.
  9. richardw

    richardw G&G Enthusiast

    The Corps intends to equip ever fire team with one M27 for starts. That way they can provide suppressing fire better that with one SAW per squad. They have also silences ever rifle in one batallion as a test of its effectiveness in allowing Marines to better hear orders in the battlefield. They are testing because of the level of hearing impairments of infantry Marines who often take out their earplugs to be able to communicate effectively in battle. There are other changes underway including new boots, and packs, and woodland cameo as standard uniform replacing desert camo. Now what does that say about where they believe they are going in force in the future?
  10. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

    It looks like the Marines could use something like those noise-cancelling radio headphones. I bought a set for dad that does noise cancellation, plays FM radio and will hook to his cell phone through blue tooth. They weren't even that expensive as I got them on clearance at Lowe's.
    I wonder if there is a reason no one has come up with something similar for the military and/or why something like that has not been adopted.
    PAPA G likes this.
  11. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor


    They do have those and their comms are run through them as well in the video you can see several marines wearing them. (they also require a different helmet to fit them as well).
    Special forces have had them forever and now they are making their way into the general troops as well it seems, which is a good thing.

    They have been out in the commercial market for long enough as well.

    You also seem them in use with a lot of police tactical teams now. it's sort of gotten to be common place.

    I have a pair of Peltors I wear on operations as well when working that I can run my radio audio through as well.
    PAPA G, Huey Rider and Ten Man like this.
  12. PaleHawkDown

    PaleHawkDown G&G Evangelist

    Maybe that they are planning on staying in Afghanistan a little longer?

    See also Panjshir.

    A buddy of mine spent a lot of time in some of the more lush and mountainous regions there during his time in the Army. He spent his first deployment in the desert in Iraq and his second one in some pretty beautiful and lush parts of Afghanistan.

    TRUE STORY: Another friend took a contract security job in Afghanistan post-military for three months. His job was to protect a forest because, I kid you not, terrorists and certain foreign countries were making millions smuggling lumber out of the country while everyone else was being distracted by the war.

    Supposedly nearly the whole country was forests back in Jesus' time, but people stripped it bare. The remaining forests are very valuable.
    PAPA G likes this.
  13. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    I got an army guy I work with. He's a tech that does NBC weapons decontamination.

    He said when he first joined and got into that MOS everyone was told "Yea you guy's are probably never gonna get used...

    His whole unit got called up and is getting deployed to the middle east next year. o_O
    PAPA G likes this.
  14. chesterwin

    chesterwin G&G Evangelist

    Good info. I'll keep the old pair of tiger stripe camo out of the deer woods.
    Ten Man and PAPA G like this.
  15. Cyrano

    Cyrano Resident Curmudgeon Forum Contributor

    New York
    I still think the Corps would be better off with something from the CETME family than anything even faintly related to the Poodle Shooter, but the M27 is a major improvement. I hope they can come up with enough funding to outfit every mud Marine with them, including the sound suppressors and the ACOG sights. And the business in Fallujah with the disproportionate percentage of head shots does not surprise me at all. Alone among the armed forces, the Corps has never deviated from the idea that every Marine is first, last, and always a rifleman; and as a result makes very sure every Marine can hit what he or she points at, making their shots count.
    richardw and PAPA G like this.
  16. ChaZam

    ChaZam G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    If military leaders could equip troops instead of a DC committee we and our troops would probably be far better served.
  17. chesterwin

    chesterwin G&G Evangelist

    ChaZam likes this.
  18. TXplt

    TXplt Gun Toting Boeing Driver Forum Contributor

    FWIW I believe the CAS mission will gradually be pushed down to locally controlled UAVs. This will be a political fight in that the services vie for the CAS dollars instead of looking at the big picture. Hopefully the Trump administration will look at it more from a business perspective; what makes sense is common-kinda equipment chopped for local support and targeting.
    ChaZam and Ten Man like this.
  19. Ten Man

    Ten Man G&G Evangelist

    Silly rabbit! "Making sense" is for civilians. LOL!!!

    In all your time in the service, when did "makes sense" rule the decision making process?
    ChaZam and TXplt like this.
  20. TACAV

    TACAV G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor


    The ACOGs are pretty much standard issue now.

    Regarding the 7.62 rifles.... nothing against the CETME but there are simply many, many, many far more modern options out there now. The M27 is a major improvement...I would add that HK does also make a 7.62x51 NATO version as well, the HK417 A2 that could be a good possible option. :)
    FortyXDM likes this.