Tips About Shooting People

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by Mike Franklin, May 24, 2008.

  1. 1) Only shoot as an absolute last resort after all else fails.
    2) Never use reloads for self defense. If the criminal court doesn't hang you, the civil court will.
    3) Don't drag the body inside the house. Tampering will get you big jail time and the jury will tend to question your motive in 'defending' yourself.
    4) If the perp surrenders or is incapacitated cover him but DON'T SHOOT HIM AGAIN UNLESS YOU HAVE DO, like he resumes the attack.
    5) Call the Police ASAP
    6) If it can be done safely render First Aid
    7) If an ambulance arrives backoff and let them do their deal
    8) Generally co-operate with the Police.
    A) When ordered to, put the gun down
    B) Rasie your hands and assume a surrender posture, an officer will tell what you need to do, follow his directions
    C) If read your rights ask for a Lawyer then shut your mouth, you have been arrested.
    D) Tell the first Officer on the sence exactly what you did and why
    E) Don't sign crap
    F) Ask for a blood test unless you are drunk or stoned
    G) Yes, do let them fingerprint you and take your picture
    9) Don't talk to the press
    10) Don't tell your friends all about how you did the deed
    11) Don't try to make yourself into a Hero, if you are people will say so, if not......oh,well
    12) Do seek counseling, from a Preacher, Psychiatrist or other Professional
    13) Don't worry about the dreams, they will pass, if not go back to #12

    I may think of some other stuff later but this is a good start.
    BTW, I've been a Cop of some kind for 31+ years. I'm not telling you this stuff to get you off from murdering someone, most of these things are what I've done myself. Only shoot if you have too.
     
  2. #13) Take that as gospel folks. Pulling the trigger is the easy part, making the decision is what's difficult. It gets a whole world tougher from there on out.
     

  3. Windwalker

    Windwalker G&G Newbie

    This is very good advice. Heed it well! You could be facing two court charges. One in Criminal Court and one in Civil Court for injuries and damage.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2008
  4. Aqualung

    Aqualung G&G Newbie

    78
    0
    OR/WA
    Why, how? What?

    I found a great article on reddit about how you should never talk to the police, even if you haven't been arrested, but especially if you have.
     
  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker G&G Newbie

    That is good advice. Make no statement to ANYONE and don't sign ANYTHING without your attorney being present.
     
  6. 2) 'Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury. Not only did the accused shoot down this poor unfortunate victim but he had , not being satisfied with the terrible wounds caused by factory ammunition, loaded special ammo so as to make the wounds far greater and death dealing. I ask you Ladies and Gentlemen (none of whom has a cue about ammuntion or reloading), why did the accused feel that he needed to cause even more pain, injury and suffering to the poor victim?'

    Got the picture?
     
  7. DWFan

    DWFan Handgunner

    With all due respect, with your being a member of law enforcement, you will be seen by the public, the courts and the press as trained to deal with these situations, and certain behaviors will be expected.
    I have to disagree with (F). I would not take a blood test unless it was under the advice of an attorney.
    I disagree with (6). There will be blood. Unless you are a medical professional and have proper protective gear, contact with blood can transmit a variety of diseases, some of which can be fatal. In all likelyhood, with a gunshot injury, you will simply make things worse. You also place yourself in a vulnerable position should there be someone you aren't aware of.
    I also wouldn't have the gun in my hand when the police arrived. Somewhere close, but not in my hand or on my person. That way I can't be "accidentally" shot.
    I'm sorry, I have mixed emotions about "telling the police what happened". I would be more likely to tell as little as possible. "I was defending myself. I'd like an attorney before I give a full statement please." The old line of "if you are innocent, you have nothing to hide" is a farse at best, and a bald-faced lie otherwise. Silence is a right.
     
  8. Aqualung

    Aqualung G&G Newbie

    78
    0
    OR/WA
    Man, the judicial system has just gotten out of hand...

    Yeah, thanks.
     
  9. I used to work at our County Jail. One thing I can tell you is people have the right to remain silent, but they rarely have the brains to remain silent. I would give a statement only in the presence of my lawyer. Just like DWF said. I would be respectful but I would decline giving a statement until after I talked to my attorney.
     
  10. DWFan

    DWFan Handgunner


    Says a lot for having your self defense weapon (not a CCW but home defense) chambered for a cartridge that isn't factory loaded; i.e. .38-45 Clerke, .360 Dan Wesson, .357 Rimless Mag, 9mm Win Mag, 10mm Mag
     
  11. TXplt

    TXplt Gun Toting Boeing Driver Forum Contributor

    This is why EVERY state needs a castle doctrine.
     
  12. As an Officer I can tell you that getting your version heard by an Officer is a good idea. Tell the truth, the evidence will support your story. I suggest not signing a statement because the order of what happened and the timeframe is easily mixed up.
    Something real straightforth and simple is fine. 'That guy came into my house, threatened me with a crowbar, I warned him to leave, he kept coming at me and I shot him because I was afraid he'd kill me.' Is likely OK.
    As far as First Aid, just giving the guy a towel and telling him to hold it on the wound is something. I've been exposed to blood a lot. It's harder to catch stuff than you've been lead to believe. Telling 911 that there's a gunshot victim and EMS needs to rush is better than nothing.
    BTW, if your Lawyer is the corprate contract guy ask him to send or bring a Criminal Defense Attorney.
    I was first unit on the scene in at least one killing a week for over three years.
    Oh, and most of the time you'll know the guy you shoot, if only by sight.
     
  13. Mooseman684

    Mooseman684 G&G Newbie

    17,238
    17
    Up here, you have to be "In fear of your Life" and the bad guy better have had some kind of weapon...and you better be sober !
     
  14. Aqualung

    Aqualung G&G Newbie

    78
    0
    OR/WA
    And if your lawyer has any sense, he would tell you not to say anything anyway.
     
  15. apotheon

    apotheon G&G Newbie

    2
    0
    Don't talk to the police. Ever.


    I'm the guy who wrote the "never talk to the police" thing, to which Aqualung linked. It's worth noting that, in point of fact, there are times that the police must read you your rights for anything you say to be admissible even if you haven't been arrested. Also, if you're arrested but you aren't read your rights, it's possible the police will all assume you've been read your rights, and in a court of law it's your word against theirs -- so don't talk even if they haven't advised you of your rights.

    Basically, you should just shut your mouth -- and maybe ask for a lawyer -- period. Neither having been read your rights nor having been arrested is a prerequisite for opening your trap getting you in a heap of trouble, even if you don't say anything you think is incriminating.

    I recommend you check out the video linked from my post at Don't talk to the police. Ever.

    In general, I've seen good advice here. Since I'm about to go to bed for the night, I won't really contribute anything more to the discussion right now other than what I've already said -- but there are a couple items listed here that got me thinking (like the "never use reloads" advice).

    By the way, Aqualung -- thanks for the link.
     
  16. AnaxImperator

    AnaxImperator G&G Newbie

    Exactly. I don't see how asking for a blood-test would help my case.

    Why would I ask to be given a one, especially if it happens in my own home or car? If I'm minding my own business on the couch enjoying a white-russian, and I have to shoot the degenerate who decides to break into my house, what does it matter if my blood-alchohol is a little elevated?
    And if I have to shoot the crackhead who tries to carjack/rob me while I'm driving/parked and I'm drunk or high; I'm wrong anyways, and the police won't take long to figure it out.

    As far as the debated risk from blood-borne pathogens; why take the chance with HIV/Hepatitis/etc?

    In the case of Arizona vs. Fish, the prosecution argued that Harold Fish didn't immediately try to administer first-aid after shooting his attacker, and this made an impact on the jury. They interpreted that as him being callous, even malicious; even though Mr. Fish did state that he tried to give CPR to Mr. Kuenzli, he didn't do it immediately.

    Still, I don't see that I have any responsibility to provide comfort or life-saving techniques to someone who, just prior to having been shot in self-defense, was attempting to hurt/kill me or my family. While that may be used as ammunition against me by an ambulance-chasing attorney in civil court, I honestly don't feel that I could bring myself to help such a criminal
    Call me callous, but I feel that anyone who has turned predator and is trying to victimize me or my loved-ones, has given up their right to my kindness. The State may show mercy, but I certainly will not; short of applying a coup-d'-grace, but nothing more than possibly throwing a spare t-shirt at the criminal and telling him to apply pressure.

    It also wouldn't be wise to stand-down from a defensive posture until the police arrive as the perp (if still alive) could resume his attack (or try to run away) suddenly, especially if there's something like meth, PCP, or other drugs in his system. The initial shock of being shot may put him down temporarily, but after it wears off anything could happen. And he may have friends in the area, or just ghetto-dwellers who decide to dispense a little vigilante justice on the person who shot down an innocent fellow ghetto-dweller.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  17. And of course even if you do everything right you can still be arrested and go to trial.
     
  18. Cyrano

    Cyrano Resident Curmudgeon Forum Contributor

    28,030
    16,959
    New York
    Mike Franklin, thanks for some very solid, practical advice. I hope to God I never have to use it!

    I would appreciate your take on this: If you keep a firearm handy for home or personal defense, I strongly suggest A) that you read Massad Ayoob's books on personal defense and B) that you think through very slowly, while sober and not under any threat, what you would do under what circumastances/conditions, and what happens after. Get it settled in your brain in advance and review it at least once a month to keep it current. If it ever happens that you have to draw down on someone, it ain't gonna be like you're shooting at the range. Your adrenaline will be flowing and your blood will be up. What's going to save your hide and keep you out of jail and out of court if you're lucky, is your mental preparation.

    Also, Mike, after you give your initial account to the officer who is first on the scene, should you then say, "I want a lawyer" and shut up, even if he hasn't put you under arrest or Mirandized you? Or will that give the police the idea that something isn't kosher about the shooting?
     
  19. I found it so useful, I copy and pasted it into a notepad and saved it for future, check that for GOD FORBID future reference...I hope it never comes down to it. But sound advice if it did...Thanks Mike.

    Massad Ayoob only gave like 5. I can only remember this one though. lol Be the first to call the police, they tend to consider the one that does the victim. If you didn't kill the offender, and he happens to call the police and says I've just been shot, they'll consider him to be the victim and it will then be up to you to prove he wasn't...

    In Illinois, yes, good ole' Illinois, (for those that didn't pick up on it, that was/is said with tons of sarcasm. lol) But in Illinois you can be sued by the one who you shot while they broke into your home, if they live. If they don't, their next of kin can. What crap. This state has more laws for then against a criminal. NO WONDER THERE ARE SO MANY CRIMINALS IN ILLINOIS!!! YOU CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A LIVING AT IT IN ILLINOIS!!!

    In one of the links included above. Is it that bad to talk to a cop? I mean if no one talks to them how can they do there job thoroughly or in a timely manner? I mean we all want them to catch the bad guy/s as soon as they can. But if everyone took the approach, don't talk to cops, how would they ever get any information? Sometimes it takes talking to someone or someone telling them something in order to get something done.

    I guess I'd add if I've done nothing wrong and don't have any thing or reason to hide any information, what's to worry about just talking to them? Any thoughts on that? I speak of this site that one of the links above to me to...
    Don't Talk to Cops!
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  20. HEMI

    HEMI G&G Newbie

    Mike thanks,mooseman is wise
    The law is based on what would a reasonable person do.
    If your in fear for your life our those around you ,use lethal force to
    stop the treat with all haste.Never use lethal force to protect property unless there is no other option, this will make you look greedy and blood thirsty in court If you do there will be a investigation no matter how cut and dried it may seem, you will be sued by the criminal[if he survives] or his family.There will be no parade,you will second guess yourself.You will have nightmares.

    And remember no matter how big a scum bag he is he has a family that loves him and that will miss him.

    Above all train more to know when not to pull the trigger than the reverse.