Where is the line drawn?

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by SPOCAHP ANAR, May 8, 2002.

  1. SPOCAHP ANAR

    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    I can't understand why people like this Helder guy and Mcveigh have to intentionally hurt people to get their message across? I know death is more shocking and somehow relevates their act to a higher plane, but don't you think they would get more of a following or atleast a general acceptance from the population for what they have done if it didn't invlove, atleast intentionally, the harm of innocents?

    Mcveigh Bombed a fed building, that housed the ATF as well as a daycare. If he had chose the bldg at night or another unpopulated target do you think he would have been percieved differently. The whole "collateral damage" statement really painted him as the devil. But I do find it funny how when the government does the same the other cheek is often turned.

    Atleast this guy Helder didn't use a gun or we'd be hearing about more gun laws. As I (we) may agree with some of these guys political views, I cannot sanction the use of violence on innocents to get your point across. However, this being said, where would we be if the founding fathers held the same view. I am sure they had to know that some innocent people would be harmed/killed if they followed their convictions.

    So where do we draw the line. When does a right wing activist become a patriotic hero? When is the death of innocent people acceptable to the cause? Just some things to think about.
     
  2. Big Dog

    Big Dog Retired IT Dinosaur Wrangler Forum Contributor

    That's why terrorists get so little popular support. Most often, they hurt or kill the very people they purport to be tryimg to "free". Nobody is going to support a "freedom fighter" who has killed their child. It's really just another abuse of power.
     

  3. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

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    I would think that these "Freedom Fighters" would get way more sympathy if they were way more selective in their targets. For example, I could understand support for McVeigh if he went after Reno personally. But the whole OK City thing stinks anyway. The "coincidence" with all the BATF agents just "happening" to be absent when the bomb went off, and the INCREDIBLE amount of damage done by a truck bomb parked well away from the building come to mind.
     
  4. BenP

    BenP Guest

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    Let me give you an example of what is going through the mind of the McVeighs and Helder's. If you were living with a group of people and one night, while everyone else is asleep, you wake up and realize the house may be on fire, how would you go about waking people up. You know, no one likes a rude awakening, but when there may be something lethally wrong and imminently threatening, you do what you feel you have to.

    That's a scary analogy, but if you talk to some of these wackos, and you listen to their reasoning, it is just like that. The really scary part is listening to them, and realizing that they aren't that far off the mark, just a little too drastic in their methods.

    We need wake up calls if we're gonna survive. The rationale that drastic times call for drastic measures, in this sense anyways, is a desperate act of a limited mind. We don't need to make an example out of an obviously vulnerable situation to get our point across, though it does seem to be an effective method for change.

    The difference is the revolutionaries only used force against force. Most of their efforts prior to Concord and Lexington were in the form of "Letter Writing Campaigns" to use modern context. Our country was going to change whether we went to war or not, only the war fomented the change much quicker, but at a much higher cost. Still, the fight had to be made, mostly because of the madman sitting on the throne of England at the time.

    If it comes to it, we will fight to preserve our freedom. I don't think we're there yet, and I don't think that terrorist actions are necessary to incite public action against our current government, either. Fortunately, though we do have madmen trying to run our country into the ground, they are not as all powerful as the monarchs of colonial times. At least we only have to put up with the truly crazies for 4 years at a time, before replacing them with other lunatics.
     
  5. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    We need to resist oppression and stand our ground, not lash out at people. Talk to people, educate people, educate our elected officials. Repaying evil with evil just doesn't work, besides guess who becomes just as bad as the enemy.
    Way I see it, the government is too large and complex to say that "the government is bad" and "I don't trust the gummit'." Fact is there are so many people there from so many backgrounds with so many agendas that you can't really say much about the government's credibility or character as a whole.
     
  6. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

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    The ****ed government would not be so large or complex if the Constitution were obeyed!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  7. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

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    I got it! Make it legal to beat the tar out of ALL officials who break their OATHS to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States!
     
  8. Shaun

    Shaun G&G Evangelist

    your so right Klaus
     
  9. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    Alan Keyes for President! He stands for the Constitution and our founding principles AND can beat the snot out of most others in Washington.
    Oh yeah, and that strong contingent of voters of African descent that the Democrats always count on? Uh-uh! :wave:
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2002
  10. PAPA G

    PAPA G G&G Evangelist Forum Contributor

    alan keyes was my hope for president, could you imagine, what a real circus that would have been in Florida!!!
     
  11. Klaus

    Klaus Guest

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    I like Keyes too. Heard him down here in Houston.
     
  12. I know it sounds cruel, but those pepole in the fed building the mcvey leveled worked for the gov't the pushed the penciles, jockyed the desks that keep those in the field that raid the houses of citizens, going.
    They to were literally working to take yours and my rights away, no i don't think they were intentinaly working to destroy our rights, they were pawns of a gov't which cared about them as much as the man that parked the truck bomb next to the building they worked in.
    And again i know this sounds mean, cruel, ect, ect . . . but if you want to make an omellet, then you've got to break some eggs,
    Besides, wether you care to acknowledge it, we are at war for our rights, and there is no such think as zero calateral damage in a war, innocents will always get hurt, be it intentinal or otherwise, it's just the way it is.
    Ok now feel free to pick this apart as needed.

    -Jesse
     
  13. colt45

    colt45 Guest

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    As mean as it sounds you may be right had it not been for the day care center in the building I don't think you get much of an agument out of most of us on the breaking eges to make an omlet but no military action gorila or sanctioned should include children in the target zone.
    Ok, now we can pick my statment apart.
     
  14. i agree about the day care, children should never be targeted.
    -Jesse
     
  15. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    A real man goes after his real enemies. Attacking workers and children is cowardly. If Al Quaida had any guts they'd pile onto a boat and come over here with their AK-47s. Not afraid of us, huh?

    Look, the reason the government's become as tyrannical as it is is because people let it get that way. We need to quit letting happen and educate people about it. We need to talk to those people that we can't stand. We need to write our legislators. We need to set up organizations that do things. I'm going to try to set up a campus group dedicated to appreciation and awareness of firearms, their history, safety, and laws. Gotta love conservative private Christian colleges.
     
  16. colt45

    colt45 Guest

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    Good luck I wish you well.
    Most schools private or otherwise won't even let you say the words fire and arm in the same sentance.
    I tried thie when I was in collage in the 80's had no luck and almost got exspelled.
    I wish you luck my fiend.
     
  17. SPOCAHP ANAR

    SPOCAHP ANAR G&G Enthusiast

    Redefine:

    "Attacking workers and children is cowardly"

    The children, I agree should be left out of it. But the workers are guilty by association. I didn't see anyone shed any tears over low level taliban soldiers being mulled over. Just because they were americans should not change anything.

    As far as we should "talk" to people. I do not think this will work. As I posted sometime back this country is too ****ed greedy to listen to what is right. There are too many welfare recipients out there (corporations, poor, elderly, gov't employees, unions, farmers, etc...) for anything to ever change. It will take another civil war, unless we see some change in the US supreme court, to change our country for the better. This country is Intellectually STUPID!

    Don't believe me ask some young kid (18-20) who he voted for in the last election. Then ask him if he saw either the news or Current Affair.
     
  18. Hey now i'm 21, but i was smart enough not to vote in the last election, as i know it's meaningless, the ***** they shuffle around ever 4 years in just that *****, it's going to take another civil war to bring us back to a better time.
    -Jesse:assult:
     
  19. Doglips

    Doglips Guest

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    This is an intresting question. In 1775 (?) the boston tea party was an attack on goverment shipping and taxes. The revolutary war was certinaly an armed response to the british goverment and had we lost Im sure would be portraied in history a bit diffrently. The old saying one mans terroris is anothers freedom fighter. Haveing been in combat with more rules and polatics than actual combat, I believe that an armed conflict..war upriseing what ever needs to be a violent as needed and free from political correctness and restraint....sorta of all or nothing scorched earth approach. That being said, I aggree it would be a better political move for the extreamist..or freedom fighters to be selictive and surgical about their targets. Had the 09/11 fur balls hit the senet and capatiol building and not "inocent" people at work as opposed to polaticians then I may have sympathised with their cause..had McVeigh destroyed BAFT files or bio weapons type of stuff and no kids or non combatants then I might have seen him as insightfull. Right now me and the IRS seem to disagree about my tax payer status for the last 5 years and the accuricy of my documentation....and they are not very nice people to play with...so Now I got 2 lawyers (my expense)...now if the PLO..McVeigh or the bassetthound liberation army destroyed the IRS and its computers I would probly buy them a beer or two dozen. But thats the problem what are acceptable targets...the people at the IRS would not aggree with my beliefe that they are and I would not aggree if they said I was....
    The goverment is too large and too in charge no question about it..but once created, departments, pannels ect are not going to go away..the goverment will get larger and more in control of our lives....so if 1 or 2 or a hundred people rise up, foce will be meet with more force and there are more of them than us.
    I doubt the line will ever be drawn, the majority of people are sheep happy to live in their little pasture and freely give up their wool and their lives.
    Should the line be drawn, and way the actions of the winners and losers will be writen by the victor....and im sure the victor's actions will be shown in a faverable light.
     
  20. BattleRifleG3

    BattleRifleG3 G&G Evangelist

    Drop bombs on an installation after hours and you destroy the enemy's production base. Drop them during hours and you make yourselves into killers and make it easier for the enemy to think that you're evil and they're good. Kill your enemy and you make him a martyr. Tie him up and slap a pie in his face, and you humiliate him.
    I'm not afraid of people getting killed in a war, but there can be other options. And deliberately killing civilians should be avoided.
    I read over the previous posts and am concerned about how little people are condemning these acts of terror. Besides, terror to a weak man is an invitation to a stronger man. That's what we're showing Al Quaida.
    In other countries in the world that don't have free speech at all, they resort to terrorism to speak. As much of the First Amendment as we still have, we need to use it. Not let killers speak for us.