young and dum

Discussion in 'The Powder Keg' started by 2look4bucks, May 6, 2008.

  1. 2look4bucks

    2look4bucks Guest

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    I'm a young re-loader and do not want to blow up my new .357mag. please help with info.
    My problem is un burnt powder in .38 reloads hornady 125gr. xtp jhp hodgdon universal clay powder @ 4.8 with small primers.
    Using mag. primers in .38 case with .38 powder charge and 38 bullet 125gr.?:feedback:


    I have re-loaded @ 175 round in my first month.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2008
  2. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    Are you crimping the bullet?You dont state what powder but usually the powders used for revolvers require that you crimp the bullet to insure ignition before bullet release.There is a crimping ring built into your seating die.Go back to your instructions and set the die up to crimp.It is dangerous not to crimp,as a bullet can be forced into the barrel and due to poor ignition and low pressure,all of the gasses go out between the barrel and cylinder.Then the bullet is in the barrel and if you fire again,you will bulge the barrel or blow it up. sam.
     

  3. SL11

    SL11 G&G Newbie

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    2look4bucks,

    From your post, I THINK you are using 4.8 grains of Hodgdon "Universal" powder with Horndady 125 grain XTP bullets and magnum primers in 38 special cases, shooting them in a 357 Magnum gun.

    IF that is correct, then you are about at the starting load for 38 Special pressures, according to Hodgdon's reloading manual. Your load is probably producing only about 13,400 CUP. Universal powder is probably not going to burn well in a case with a lot of free space at that pressure. So, finding unburnt powder is not a surprise.

    According to the Hodgdon manual, you can increase the charge of Universal to as much as 5.4 grains to get 18,900 CUP and still be within 38 Special +P pressure limits, which are fine for a gun that can shoot 357 Magnums at 40,000 CUP. In fact, Hodgdon's data says you can use as much as 7.6 grains with this bullet IF you use 357 Magnum cases instead of 38 Special cases. DO NOT put 7.6 gains into the 38 Special cases, because they are smaller and will create higher pressure than the 357 cases with the same powder charge.

    There are methods for figuring out how much powder to put in a 38 Special case to get the same pressure that is produced by loading data data for a 357 magnum case, but I think that is a little too advanced for your current experience level.

    If you work up from your 4.8 grain charge in increments of 0.1 or 0.2 grains at a time, you will probably find a charge of Univresal that burns cleanly before you reach the 5.4 grain maximum for 38 Special +P pressures.

    I think you should buy Hodgdon's annual reloading manual. It is in magazine form and sells for $7.99 US. Also, if you don't already have one, one of the good bound reloading books from a bullet manufacturer, such as Hornady, would be a good investment.

    Have fun and stay safe.

    SL11
     
  4. gandog56

    gandog56 G&G Evangelist

    The best powder is one that almost completely fills your case. That way it's awful hard to double charge a case and easy to spot a light charge in the loading blocks.
     
  5. Do what Samuel says do and you'll be a pretty good reloader someday.
    Samuel needs to write a book to answear and detail what the re-Loading manuals don't tell you.
    A.H
     
  6. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    SL11:verry bad advice to tell someone to load .38 Spec.cases to .357 loads.The cases arent nearly as strong as .357 cases. Gandog56:You are right to advise trying to fill the case,but the slower burnrate you have to gain volumn,the more ignition problems you incur.The proper powders are listed in load manuals. A.H.,there isnt anything reloading manuals dont tell you if you look for it and know how to understand it.I wish I knew even as much as some that post in here,say nothing to the volumns in reloader manuals.The one thing is,if you get advice from a forum like this,verify it with a reloaders manual. sam.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  7. SL11

    SL11 G&G Newbie

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    Sam,

    Please look again. I read that he was loading 38 cases, so I gave him 38 +P loads for maximum. I also read that he was shooting his loads in a 357 magnum and was worrying about blowing up his gun. I advised him that he could load more powder in the 357 mag case, but NOT TO DO IT IN THE 38 SPECIAL CASES. I told him that there were ways to figure how to get the same pressures in 38 cases as was produced by load data for 357 cases, but that was too advanced for him at the "young and dum" stage (his words).

    With respect to putting higher than +P pressure loads in 38 cases, it has been done since the old 38-44 days. True, the 38 cases don't have walls as thick as the 357 cases down by the web, and 38 cases factory loaded with wadcutters usually have even thinner walls than 38 standard cases. So, there is a lot to consider when loading 38 cases above 38 Special +P pressures. But, there is a lot of difference between +P max loads and 357 max laods. There are (advanced) methods to calculate loads in between, using 357 mag data adjusted for the difference in 38 and 357 powder space. But, I am not going to give stiff loads for 38 cases in this thread, because that is not what the question was about. But, I can tell you that, if you stick to +P pressure loads or less in 38 brass, you are not going to hurt a revolver chambered in 357 mag.

    SL1
     
  8. 2look4bucks

    2look4bucks Guest

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    Thank you, Sl11 and samuel next ? is should I move up on the burn scale form hodgdon universal (26) to the fast burning hodgdon titegroup (10)? I'm crimping.
     
  9. alaskamonte

    alaskamonte Suspended

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    Sam, The Platform Is A .357 Maggie-

    Loading Special brass to .357 Maggie pressures has been done since the 1930s,
    [SIZE=-1]Jerry Miculek popularized the same thing back in the 2nd Chance days with his 230gn pin loads. The special brass is nothing but a fully supported gasket that will comfortably run at any listed SAAMI pressure for .357 Maggie.[/SIZE]
     
  10. SL11

    SL11 G&G Newbie

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    2look4bucks,

    You asked "should I move up on the burn scale form hodgdon universal (26) to the fast burning hodgdon titegroup (10)?"

    It depends on how powerful you want the ammo to be. If you want something in the 38 Special +P power range, then you may find that a little more Universal powder will give you a clean-burning load in that range. (I'm not sure, maybe not; I don't shoot that powder, but I know that Unique works that way: dirty when loaded too light, but cleans-up by +P pressures in 38 Special.) You are just above starting load, now, so you can work-up to to 5.4 grains, which should give a velocity of about 1050 fps.

    But, if you are looking for a light load, then a faster powder should give you cleaner burning at lower power levels. Note that PRESSURES are not lower with the faster powders, just bullet velocity.

    With respect to the numerical rankings of powders on "burn rate lists" [e.g., your "Universal (26)" and "titegroup (10)"], there are two things to be aware of: First, those charts differ A LOT from one reference to another with respect to which powder has a higher number than another. Look at several and you will see Titegroup being both faster and slower than "Clays" and "Bullseye", for example. (It is always faster than "Universal" on all the charts I have seen.) And, second, the differenes in burn rates are not the same from powder to powder. In some ranges, there are so many competing powders that the order is really only due to alphebetizing or very minor differences in one lab's testing compared to another lab's testing. In other ranges, there are gaps that make big performance differences between adjacent powders on a list.

    So, pick a powder by looking at several lists and load data for YOUR application as well. And NEVER try to estimate the load for a powder by using its position on a burn rate list and extrapolating from data for another powder on the list. If you are going to use a powder, get pressure-tested data for THAT powder from a reliable reference. Actually, because even pressure tested data can vary quite a bit from reference to reference, we typically look at 2 or 3 references to make sure that there is not a typo or other problem with the data in one reference. (Some manuals have a reputation for having some very hot loads that are over-pressure in some people's guns.)

    SL1
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2008
  11. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    Can you post any article that proves JM or any other knowledigable gun person ever advised loading .357 pressures in .38spl cases?Any article about reloading will do.I love to learn. sam.

    SL11:I read your post as stating that you can load .38spl to .357 pressures.Even in a well made .357 the little bit that a cartridge is forced back can and probably will rupture a .38spl case just above the base.The chamber can be great but when the body of the .38 case is exposed from firing,it can rupture.Loading .357 loads in .38spl cases is advised against in all reloading manuals but I have seen it done in numerous cases and have seen what can happen if you do it.At the least you will get a face full of burning powder.All cases are designed for specific loads and these two are no different..357 cases loaded to .38 pressures wont make an adequate gas seal and .38spl cases loaded to .357 pressures can easily rupture.I do not believe they should have ever come up with +P loads.Many guns and some people have been injured because someone decided they were smart enough to push the envelope.It is an act of folly as the gain is little and the damage that can be done is considerable.Few of the firearms out there are designed for +P ammo and at the least you are going to wear the gun out much faster. sam.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2008
  12. SL11

    SL11 G&G Newbie

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    Sam,

    As I stated before, I don't think this is the thread for providing hot (more than +P) loading data for 38 Special cases. So, I am going to decline to provide examples.

    With respect to your statement "Even in a well made .357 the little bit that a cartridge is forced back can and probably will rupture a .38spl case just above the base." I have to disagree. In any revolver with the headspace made properly, the cartridge case cannot slide back far enough to expose the case above the web; all of the case wall is constrained by the chamber. (Semiauto pistols specially chambered for 38 Special wadcutter ammo may be an exception to that, IF the feed ramp intrudes into the chamber as it does on some other semiauto designs. But, revolvers don't have feed ramps, so this is not an issue with the poster's gun.)

    With respect to putting light loads into 357 mag cases and not getting a good gas seal, I can assure you that you don't need full-power 357 charges to get an effective seal. I shoot mostly 38 Special level loads exclusively from 357 magnum cases, and don't need to go much if any higher than I would with 38 Special cases to get a seal.

    The two cases are about the same thickness in the mouth and center part of the case walls, where the seal forms. The case walls down by the web are thicker in 357 mag cases to better handle the transition from where the case expands to where it does not. If the walls are too thin there, there will be a rather steep step from the expanded to the unexpanded part of the wall, and that weakens the brass with repetitive firings and resizings. The 357 mag case is thickeer to keep the step in the case wall from becoming too sharp. I suppose a thinner case could separate there if it was fired too often, but I have not seen nor heard of it happening in regular 38 Special cases. I would be more concerned about 38 Special cases that were designed for wadcutters, because they are noticeably thinner in that section. So, I do not recommend loading 38 special cases to more than +P pressures until a person is experienced enough to pick the right cases and recognize when to stop loading them and throw them away.

    But, remember that the poster was initially asking about a load that was only 0.1 grain more than the start load, and made a reference to concern about blowing up his gun. His question related to unburned powder with that light charge. The main point of the responses was to tell him that he can safely load some more powder to get a better burn and clean-up the load. This is NOT the thread to explore how hot one can safely load 38 Special cases. So, let's just stick with +P or less in 38 cases for this thread. Of course, since he has a 357 mag gun, he can always use 357 mag cases to go to the higher pressures in the 357 mag data.

    SL1
     
  13. samuel

    samuel G&G Newbie

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    SL:You made good points.All we have is a difference of opinions and experiences.Thank you. sam.
     
  14. runfiverun

    runfiverun G&G Evangelist

    interestingly enough castboolits is having a discussion on this same thread.
    only with about 5 different opinions.
    and iirc paco kelly may have had an article somewhere on tis.
     
  15. 2look4bucks

    2look4bucks Guest

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    Thank you, sl11 for anwsering the 2nd ?. No more ?s for now. Thank you again