Gun and Game Forum banner
21 - 40 of 78 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,303 Posts
S&W M&P Bodyguard380 no laser
After some research, it appears your right, there are a few .380 single stacks at under 16 oz. ( some at 14-12oz)


most 9mm's are above 16 oz ( 20-24 for some) but you get alot more fire power.

so if smallest and lightest is the goal, .380 still wins over 9mm.


it'd be neat to see a single stack .30 sc, that could be pretty light and thin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,888 Posts
The .380 or 9mm Corto was used by the Italian Army, Navy, Airforce, Forestry/Border Guards and Carabinieri. The .32 ACP or 7.65mm was used by municipal police, prison system, financial / customs and tax inspectors, bank guards and private security. Civilian ownership pre-WW2 was limited to the .32s. The .380 indicated Federal government use.
There's are a bunch old German jokes...that aren't really funny - because they are German jokes. The punchline is about highest ranking Germans owning the crappiest guns, in the least militarily viable calibers.

Two boys bump into each other, and are upset due to the disrespect
Boy 1: Do you know who my father is? He's a high official with Reich.
Boy 2: Mine is too. Everyone's father is.
Boy 1: Well my father carries an Ortgies in 380, so you better apologize.
Boy 2: Well MINE carries a Mauser 1914 in .32, so YOU better apologise.
Boy 1: But my Grandfather carries a Langanhan in .25 ACP
Bot 2: My apologies, sir, care for a shoe shine?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,035 Posts
I dont know? everyone says that...find me a 9mm smaller than my 380 ..........there are not many.
Thinking the Kahr PM9 might be close but even that is about Glock 42 size, however the Glock 42 is huge for a 380, so yeah I will keep carrying 380 until the time comes that I can get a 9mm that weighs 12 oz and is less than .95 inches thin
Weight wise not exactly what you want, but you've got choices

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,888 Posts
Many shooters seem deluded by the efficacy of the .380. Even from the larger pistols, the .380 can't quite penetrate as well as the "Euro-spec" .32 ACP ammo.

I want a Walther PPK in 7,65 Browning, please. Thanks.

There has been a lot more development of defensive loads in .380, though, and almost none in the .32. For the fairest comparison you would need to compare the latest and greatest 380 to the oldest 32, and I think in that case, 380 might have the edge.

I'm a huge fan of 9x18, which is, on paper, better than either 380 or 32, but it suffers from the same problems of innovation as .32. There are .380s with polymer or alloy bullets that have more speed, more penetration, and cause more cavitation, than even the average 9 Parabellum defensive round could achieve 25 or 30 years ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I see the .380 "developments" as a bit on the useless side. The only one that made any sense is the Lehigh bullet loaded by Underwood ammunition. Even then, the .32 ACP offers better penetration and plenty of permanent soft-tissue disruption. You can put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig.

There's an old saying that remains true. "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."

Give me a hot .32 ACP and I'll get the job done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,888 Posts
I see the .380 "developments" as a bit on the useless side. The only one that made any sense is the Lehigh bullet loaded by Underwood ammunition. Even then, the .32 ACP offers better penetration and plenty of permanent soft-tissue disruption. You can put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig.

There's an old saying that remains true. "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."

Give me a hot .32 ACP and I'll get the job done.
I don't know any 32 acps that approach 1300 fps, and/or make softball-sized explosions in ballistic gel, but I know several on the 380 front that do.

Tha ARX , for example, shoots up to 1300 FPS, and makes a gnarly wound channel :

Here are two charts from Lucky Gunner:
Font Number Parallel Paper Document



Rectangle Font Slope Parallel Screenshot


380 ACP ranged from 8.4 to 18.1 inches of penetration, and between 825 and 1067 FPS...and they didn't even include the fastest, or most modern .380s on the market.

.32 ACP ranged from 9.9 to 16.8 inches of penetration, with the Fiocchi - pretty close to the German load - getting the best penetration.

It's pretty close, but the .380 has the edge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
The Seecamp , Walther PPK, and the Kel tec are about the only 32acp pistols I've ever come across for sale or even seen except maybe the colt automatic that I've seen , (but couldn't afford).
Are there good options in that caliber.
The ammo is super hard to get?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,178 Posts
After some research, it appears your right, there are a few .380 single stacks at under 16 oz. ( some at 14-12oz)


most 9mm's are above 16 oz ( 20-24 for some) but you get alot more fire power.

so if smallest and lightest is the goal, .380 still wins over 9mm.


it'd be neat to see a single stack .30 sc, that could be pretty light and thin.
The Keltec Pf9 in my pocket is 11.7 ounces empty, and 12.7 ounces with an empty nag. loaded with 7+1 it weighs about 15-15.5 ounces. I will try and weigh it tomorrow. Lots if people whine about the recoil and refuse to carry it for that reason. Any grown man that shoots much can learn to use it well.

I also have a Glock 43. It weighs about 17ounces empty probably 19.5 or so loaded. It us bugger than the Pf9 so I do not carry it much. The Keltec will fit completely inside my front pocket, the bigger Glock 43 will stick up and leave the picket gaping open and the gun exposed. I like the Glock and shoot it as well as my Glock 19. I carried handguns concealed for decades for a living, where it could mean life or death. I still think only carries a weapon openly if he is actually in a dangerous area. So jf I am doing picket carry, the smaller Keltec js the only logical choice, even though it is not a beginner's gun. I have never had any issues with it. It js not a range toy it is a small fighting devjce. So I do not burn up a lot of ammo with it., just enough to shoot it well.

We have several 380s at my house. The Glock 42 is a fun gun and I like to shoot. it is between the size if the Keltec and the Glovk 43. Njce little gun. I do not carry it because I gave a couple much smaller 380s. I have an LCP Custom, the one with sights. It weighs 10.5 ounces. I can shoot groups of 2.5 inches two hand hold at 50 feet every time. Never seen a 380 so accurate. I will carry it as a second to a 9mm or larger gun sometimes. When hiking I may carry a big revolver and the LCP just rides unnoticed in the pocket. We camp a lit and sometime walk around an RV park in gym shorts, the LCP is so tiny it works for that. There are others, Taurus 738, Re 380 and my PPKs, all are great, but I carry the tiny one.

I also have the Seecamp. It is a tiny get off me gun. It is heavier than the LCP. I have carried it but not much anymore. It has no sights and just is not effective very far at all, so it is never carried by itself, only as a backup. The Seecamp is about 10.5 ounces.

My wife carries a Ruger LC9s. It has the best trigger of any compact or subcompact 9m gun that I have ever shot, That trigger is as good as the ones on my 1911s. I rate those as the best value of any small 9mm made. It weighs about 17..5ounces empty, about 19.5 loaded.

So, as stated above, I have had not very good experience with the 32 in the Seecamp It only shoots Corbon and Silver Tips by design. They are hot but nothing like the Corbon in 380.You need to shoot them side by side to see the real difference. Gel tests do not mean much to me, from my cop days, I may need to shoot through a door, gel tests are worthless for actual combat type events. What if you need to shoot through a door or big bush? Only energy matters then, all bullets being the same.

Anyway that is my take on it. Nothing wrong with the 32*
It is just when energy matters it matters, so I do not carry the 32 for defense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
The Keltec Pf9 in my pocket is 11.7 ounces empty, and 12.7 ounces with an empty nag. loaded with 7+1 it weighs about 15-15.5 ounces. I will try and weigh it tomorrow. Lots if people whine about the recoil and refuse to carry it for that reason. Any grown man that shoots much can learn to use it well.

I also have a Glock 43. It weighs about 17ounces empty probably 19.5 or so loaded. It us bugger than the Pf9 so I do not carry it much. The Keltec will fit completely inside my front pocket, the bigger Glock 43 will stick up and leave the picket gaping open and the gun exposed. I like the Glock and shoot it as well as my Glock 19. I carried handguns concealed for decades for a living, where it could mean life or death. I still think only carries a weapon openly if he is actually in a dangerous area. So jf I am doing picket carry, the smaller Keltec js the only logical choice, even though it is not a beginner's gun. I have never had any issues with it. It js not a range toy it is a small fighting devjce. So I do not burn up a lot of ammo with it., just enough to shoot it well.

We have several 380s at my house. The Glock 42 is a fun gun and I like to shoot. it is between the size if the Keltec and the Glovk 43. Njce little gun. I do not carry it because I gave a couple much smaller 380s. I have an LCP Custom, the one with sights. It weighs 10.5 ounces. I can shoot groups of 2.5 inches two hand hold at 50 feet every time. Never seen a 380 so accurate. I will carry it as a second to a 9mm or larger gun sometimes. When hiking I may carry a big revolver and the LCP just rides unnoticed in the pocket. We camp a lit and sometime walk around an RV park in gym shorts, the LCP is so tiny it works for that. There are others, Taurus 738, Re 380 and my PPKs, all are great, but I carry the tiny one.

I also have the Seecamp. It is a tiny get off me gun. It is heavier than the LCP. I have carried it but not much anymore. It has no sights and just is not effective very far at all, so it is never carried by itself, only as a backup. The Seecamp is about 10.5 ounces.

My wife carries a Ruger LC9s. It has the best trigger of any compact or subcompact 9m gun that I have ever shot, That trigger is as good as the ones on my 1911s. I rate those as the best value of any small 9mm made. It weighs about 17..5ounces empty, about 19.5 loaded.

So, as stated above, I have had not very good experience with the 32 in the Seecamp It only shoots Corbon and Silver Tips by design. They are hot but nothing like the Corbon in 380.You need to shoot them side by side to see the real difference. Gel tests do not mean much to me, from my cop days, I may need to shoot through a door, gel tests are worthless for actual combat type events. What if you need to shoot through a door or big bush? Only energy matters then, all bullets being the same.

Anyway that is my take on it. Nothing wrong with the 32*
It is just when energy matters it matters, so I do not carry the 32 for defense.
This is all well and good. I also have a Kel-Tec P11, but my dear friend is a 68-year-old woman with limited hand strength. Her choice is the Zastava M70. She's not carrying the pistol and she's using it for "nightstand duty". She doesn't understand exotic ammunition and won't get into the finer points of high-performance fodder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
If I ever could get my hands on a Seecamp in 380acp......that would be nice. They are very hard to come by.
The Kel tec PF9 seems like a good CCW weapon, thanks for sharing that. My uncle in Florida carries one and they are made in Florida , i believe?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,178 Posts
Zasta m70? They have been on sale recently, but sold out.
Air gun Trigger Font Gun barrel Technology


Just messin with ya. The companies selling them have confused the issue. I think you meant this one.
Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Metal


I have never fired one but they got good reviews in Gun Digest. Again, whatever works and it fits the bill. That makes it perfect for her.

The 70 year lady at my house also has issues racking the slide. I searched long and hard to find handguns that work for that. The best we found at the time was the Rem copy if the famous Rorbach. They have a long slow trigger that takes a little getting used to, but perfect for anyone new to Guns. The slide comes back like butter and it is pretty accurate. My preferred 380 Is the LCP custom that shoots like a target gun. But if I did not have it, this would be the one Carried. They are a heavy duty gun, but only weigh 12.2 ounces.
  • Manufacturer: Remington
  • Model: RM380
  • Caliber: .380 Auto
  • Capacity: 6+1
  • Barrel: 2.9 in. Stainless
  • Overall Width: .94 in.
  • Overall Length: 5.27 in.
  • Overall Height: 3.86 in.
  • Trigger Pull: 8-9 lbs.
  • Finish: Satin Black Oxide
  • Slide: Stainless Steel
  • Average Weihgt Empty: 12.2 oz.
Air gun Trigger Grey Gun barrel Gun accessory





Last year I trained two ladies age 49 and 68 on the SW EZ Shield in 380. I was totally surprised by those guns. Absolutely the easiest to rack the slide and fire of any 380. We have five 380s at my house. The Shield EZ is the best for that purpose, Both of them were also as accurate as any 380 can be. They were made specifically for that slide issue and they nailed it.

Trigger Air gun Gun barrel Gun accessory Recreation
Font Number Circle

Lots of great options out there these days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
The Zastava M70 .32 ACP is a great little single-action, self-loading pistol. (I have one and enjoy shooting it). The Kel-Tec P11 works well and shoots accurately. I simply can't justify a .380. feeding one "high-tech, whizz-bang" custom loadings seems to be the only way to get any performance from the short barrel.

For the money, Ill stick with my .32 ACP pistols.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,178 Posts
If I ever could get my hands on a Seecamp in 380acp......that would be nice. They are very hard to come by.
The Kel tec PF9 seems like a good CCW weapon, thanks for sharing that. My uncle in Florida carries one and they are made in Florida , i believe?
The Keltec Pf9 was made famous when it was used in the Travon Martin case. I was introduced to it by police officers and state troopers here in Oklahoma, everybody carried it as a back up gun. I bought mine a year or two before the Glock 43 came out, as I said above it is smaller than the Glock, so I just kept carrying it. It is in my pocket now. The Glock in the safe. And as I said above, most people quit carrying it because they cannot handle the recoil. They will limp wrist it or flinch or whatever and then claim the gun is not accurate or has issues. I will watch them shoot and it is pretty obvious. Many non gun people want a gun they can play with at the range all day, that is pleasant to shoot. They should get a Glock 19 or Shield , Sig or a 380. The Pf9 is more of a tool for a professional who needs the ultra-light weight and is willing to learn to handle the brisk recoil. When you read reviews look for the guys who say they are cops, people who actually have to qualify with their backup gun. Also, you might want to shoot one before you actually buy one.

The Seecamp is a cool handgun ahead of it's time. But now there are lots of cheaper and more effective Guns. The Keltec 380 was the first, then copied by Ruger and now everybody makes a good tiny 380. Mine is a 32. I also looked a long time but never saw a 380 for sale. I believe they are bigger than the one I have which is used for the 25 and 32. They are a cool gun, very precise machining. They have no sights at all, so they do not have much range. They are so small though a bad guy would not notice them in your hand. The trigger pull is long and slow, much like the Rem380. I would recommend the Remington over the Seecamp in 380 for actual carry. The Rem is also about 1/4 the price and you can buy spare mags cheap, like $10. Spare mags for the Seecamp were $50-$55. The Seecamp weighs 11.5 ounces a little more than the plastic ones.

I did have a problem with my Seecamp, the draw bar bent. So I called the company number and Larry Seecamp, the president and owner answered. The son of the original. Nice guy and the part I needed was in the mail, no questions asked. Mine is labeled 'special edition' I have no clue why. Larry sold he company in 2014.
Trigger Everyday carry Gun barrel Air gun Gun accessory



If you find one in 380 please post a review.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 · (Edited)
I would like to find one of the Remington pistols and have a custom .32 NAA barrel hand-milled to fit the beast. I'd be willing to gamble that a nice hot load for the longer barrel would make any .312" diameter bullet perform well in the piece. (Even a 71-grain FMJ bullet) would "spit fire and wreak holy havoc" on a body at personal defense ranges.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,178 Posts
I would like to find one of the Remington pistols and have a custom .32 NAA barrel hand-milled to fit the beast. I'd be willing to gamble that a nice hot load for the longer barrel would make any .312" diameter bullet perform well in the piece. (Even a 71-grain FMJ bullet would "spit fire and wreak holy havoc" on a body at personal defense ranges.
That 32 NAA is in a category all it's own. I thought they quit making it a few years ago. I know Corbon who developed it no longer makes ammo. for it. And Hornady made a reduced load but I thought they dropped it too. I just checked ammoseek and they do not even list it. I assume you could form brass from 380. Anyway, am I missing something or is somebody else makimg ammo for it? There is so many changes in the gun world I do not always keep up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neophyte

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
If I ever could get my hands on a Seecamp in 380acp......that would be nice. They are very hard to come by.
The Kel tec PF9 seems like a good CCW weapon, thanks for sharing that. My uncle in Florida carries one and they are made in Florida , i believe?
They were. Kel-Tec is no longer producing the PF9.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
This is the one.

Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Metal


Well the pistol arrived and it is sitting at the FFL until the 218 background checks clear through NCIC.

The lady handled the pistol and enjoys the weight of the piece. I think that it will be just the ticket for discouraging/stopping bad guys with a flurry of .32 ACP ammunition to a miscreant's face. (He'll either be dead, or critically ill).

Works for her!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
This is my Grendel P12, in .380. The photo is mislabeled as it having a 12 round magazine; it's actually an 11 round magazine. It has a very long trigger pull, kicks like a mule, but is a great concealed carry piece.

View attachment 175113
I understand. I have a P11, but she can't handle a rearing .380. (At 68, it wouldn't be wise to have her attempting to control an ultra-light pistol that bucks like an angry burro).
 
21 - 40 of 78 Posts
Top