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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing: 32 ACP
What should probably be considered the bare-minimum caliber for self-defense, the 32 ACP has been in service for over 100 years and has recently seen a resurgence in the United States as the individual state governments have begun to ease restrictions on the Second Amendment and again allow citizens to carry handguns for self-defense. Popular in this role is the ’mouse gun’ or ’pocket pistol’ because they are so small and easy to carry. Recent advances in material science and aggressive engineering by pioneers such as Kel-Tec have made pocket guns both concealable and reasonably easy to shoot without extensive practice.

Where the trouble starts is with the terminal ballistics of the cartridge itself. When a visitor to the website asks me to make a recommendation of either gun or caliber, my first question is: ‘what is your experience level?’ By ‘experience level’ I mean ‘formal training by a firearms professional.’ There is no replacement for training—this is why governments around the world spend so much money on military training exercises. I strongly recommend a 32 ACP mousegun for a casual shooter looking for a CCW handgun. It may be appealing to go to the 380 ACP but it takes moderate practice to be able to use such a gun with any skill due to the recoil.
The 32 ACP is capable of moderate expansion and reaching FBI-standard penetration depths in ballistic gelatin. Most factory ammunition in mousegun calibers appears to emphasize expansion more than penetration. To date, I have not tested factory ammunition that can expand and penetrate to 12.0” in ballistic gelatin. The only way to achieve moderate expansion and adequate penetration is to handload Hornady 85gr XTP bullets over a hot charge of pistol propellant. This is not to say that factory loadings are not adequate—much the contrary. A 32 ACP JHP performs better than a 380 ACP FMJ on the shallow shotlines like hits to the arms and legs of an attacker (a very frequent occurrence given the stress of the situation) but falls flat on solid hits to the chest—the penetration is not great enough. Some have suggested ‘staggering’ the rounds in their 32 ACP such that one shot is a JHP, the next shot a FMJ, the next shot a JHP and so forth. I recommend this approach as well for 32 ACP.

32 ACP JHP vs 380 ACP FMJ

A bullets ability to wound and subsequently disable an attackers body revolves around the fluid drag acting on the bullet and the location in the body at which this occurs. One end of the spectrum would be a 32 ACP JHP which penetrates to 7.0” in 20% ballistic gelatin. Very deep penetration can be had with a 32 ACP FMJ which penetrates to 11.2” in 20% ballistic gelatin. The graph at the left illustrates the kinetic energy transfer of these bullets, overlaid with the depth in the human body that this penetration corresponds to.

32 ACP FMJ vs JHP
We see that the 32 ACP Speer 60gr Gold Dot JHP transfers the most kinetic energy at depths encountered by the leg. The implication of this is that the bullet can also reach and damage any structure located within an attackers arm. On the other hand, the FMJ bullet maximizes its damage in the thoracic cavity—making it the ideal round on shotlines involving the chest. These two examples illustrate the point that bullets can be ‘tuned’ to damage the target maximally on different shotlines in the body. Since JHPs open almost instantly, this sort of tuning of the gyroscopic stability of a bullet is most applicable to FMJ bullets. If you make an FMJ bullet less stable (slower rifling twist for instance) it will tumble earlier in the gelatin block than if it were more gyroscopically stable. To the right you will find an example experiment where I did just that : I ground a flat surface into the nose of the CCI 71gr Blazer bullet using a bench grinder. This reduced the stability of the bullet and created a homemade ‘spoon round’ which is factory made for just such a reason.
 

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Your chart reminded me of all the new push toward 22 lr and 22 mag in revolvers. I chronographed several of them and all the new short barreled defense ammo. None of gets where they say. But my tests do agree that the Little 22 excels in penetration. it jyst zios right on thru. As long ago as 2017 they were confirming that the speedy little Stinger would not blow up once it hit flesh. In fact, ut beat the FBI tests. They penetrated over 13 inches. On a torso hit. A hit from quartering in any of the 4 quarters or a hit from the back would penterate all the organs,unless it hit a rib or spine.

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And here us what Guns.com said back in 2017.

"The test shows that rounds like the CCI Stinger can end a fight on their own despite being relatively weak on paper. It meets the standard that some larger caliber offerings fail. Small caliber, low velocity guns are dicey when it comes to hollow-point ballistics. 22 LR hollow-points are designed to expand… out of a rifle’s long barrel. There are plenty of fine 25 ACP, 32, and 380 hollow-points that will expand and cause great damage, but will not penetrate deep enough. "Gel Test: 22 LR for defense — the little round that could? :: Guns.com

Then they got serious and expanded the offerings to several segmented round Reviewed: Federal's .22LR Punch Defensive Ammunition | NRA Family s and unique bullets like the new Punch Bullet. The real competition for the 22 is the 25 and 32 acp. The NRA was one of many who reported on the gel tests of the new bullet. They pointed out tgat the 22 had greater oenetration if those calibers, except for the 32 ball ammo. like you mentioned above. Here was their comment.

"'''''During testing using the FBI protocol, minimum penetration threshold of 12 inches in 10% gel, the .22 LR Punch penetrated more than the .25 Auto FMJ 50 grain (13.75” vs 12.79”) and the .32 Auto HP 60 grain (8.5”). The .32 Auto TMJ 71 grain was able to outpenetrate the .22 LR Punch at 15.25”"''''

That is nearly 14 inches of penetration if you are one who relies on the FBI tests. So the FBI says 12 inches of penetration for self defense, and the lowly 22 will do it, if you trust the FBI, just carry any 22 pistol with Stingers in it. However, this is the same FBI that said every police officer should carry a full power 10mm, same group of experts. So I am not necessarily into their latest formula.

As a side note I have worked joint cases with all federal agencies and Guns are always discussed, When the topics of killing power and penetration gets heated, I like to say, well, I have killed well over 100 deer, elk, antelope and other animals that were all bigger than me, how many have you killed. 99% of the time, they have never killed one. They do not understand that speed is an issue, momentum is an ussue and placement is an issue. They have no clue why or how you make an angle shot to take both lungs but not hit a bone at distance. My deer last year was 282 yards, no blood damage, no bone hit, except a rib. Most have no clue how prvise experienced hunters are and how we natch the bucket to the animal and dovsobat didgznces
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 · (Edited)
Since the .22 LR and 22 WRM are rimfire cartridges, they can't be counted on to fire "first time, every time". When they strike bone, the .22 LR may deflect and cannot be counted on for penetration. The 32 ACP has the "centerfire advantage" and a thicker jacket (a true FMJ) that will enhance the probability of passing through either a rib bone or sternum.

The .22 cartridges just can't be counted on to penetrate the way the 32 ACP has since 1899.
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 · (Edited)
sounds like a 100 year old love affair!

to each their own, I just dont get it.

after all the .32acp cant be counted on to penetrate like 9mm since... 1901
Physics tells us that the recoil of the 9mm Luger is far greater than that of the .32. Try and convince my 68-year-old friend that she can handle either a Tupperware 9mm or one of the all-steel frame persuasion.

You are looking at this should your own eyes and not those of a weaker person. This is someone that hasn't the strength to handle either the heavier handgun or the recoil of the more powerful cartridge in a polymer-framed piece.

I'd consider that a bit myopic.
 

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Physics tells us that the recoil of the 9mm Luger is far greater than that of the .32.

In the most common sizes offered for those guns? The 9mm has less recoil any day of the week. Pocket .32s and 380s are snappy and have a lot of muzzle lift and felt recoil. A full size 9mm doesn't kick at all in comparison and is far more controllable.

Pocket gun to pocket gun 32 ACP would be lighter, but if recoil and handling on a small gun for an elderly person is your main consideration, an auto shouldn't even be a consideration.

A revolver in 38 special is better choice. Heck, if you wanted to drop DOWN to 32 ACP power, and have a more controllable (and less recoiling) gun, you can get any number of revolvers in 32 S&W Long or 32 LC or 38 S&W. Heck, 32-20 out of an old snub-nose "Detective" revolver would deliver more power with the same felt recoil as nearly any pocket auto in .32.

Recoil isn't even the biggest consideration for an 86-year-old. Can she even rack the slide on a .32 auto? Can she load a magazine and fight the spring? Can she clear a jam? Is she going to carry it in a purse where it can get gunky? In every case a .38 revolver would be better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
She has a Zastava M70 and likes the steel frame. I would hesitate to have her try using a DA revolver. (Her thumb doesn't have the strength to use a DA OTF Automatic knife.

She may put it in a military flap holster and open carry. (She's 68, not 86. My fingers ran too fast for the keyboard).

You purchase a .38 and send it to a neatby FFL. She'll shoot it and tell you if it works for her, okay?
 

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Funny story about a 9mm involving my grandma. 3 individuals was trying to break into my grandparents house, grandma was there alone, grandpa was out working construction. Grandma heard a noise and went into the bedroom and retrieved the pistol and said something to the affect that she had a gun and that the 3 individuals had better leave. Well the people went ahead and pried the screen door open and grandma heard one of them say " I'll bet she ain't even got a gun". Grandma said about that time she pointed the pistol out the window and pulled the trigger, she also said it just kept going off till it was empty. That's the short version, but the cops actually caught the 3 individuals and grandma didn't shoot anyone. Although the burn barrel across the driveway didn't fair so well.
 

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She has a Zastava M70 and likes the steel frame. I would hesitate to have her try using a DA revolver. (Her thumb doesn't have the strength to use a DA OTF Automatic knife.

She may put it in a military flap holster and open carry. (She's 68, not 86. My fingers ran too fast for the keyboard).

You purchase a .38 and send it to a neatby FFL. She'll shoot it and tell you if it works for her, okay?
In the most common sizes offered for those guns? The 9mm has less recoil any day of the week. Pocket .32s and 380s are snappy and have a lot of muzzle lift and felt recoil. A full size 9mm doesn't kick at all in comparison and is far more controllable.

Pocket gun to pocket gun 32 ACP would be lighter, but if recoil and handling on a small gun for an elderly person is your main consideration, an auto shouldn't even be a consideration.

A revolver in 38 special is better choice. Heck, if you wanted to drop DOWN to 32 ACP power, and have a more controllable (and less recoiling) gun, you can get any number of revolvers in 32 S&W Long or 32 LC or 38 S&W. Heck, 32-20 out of an old snub-nose "Detective" revolver would deliver more power with the same felt recoil as nearly any pocket auto in .32.

Recoil isn't even the biggest consideration for an 86-year-old. Can she even rack the slide on a .32 auto? Can she load a magazine and fight the spring? Can she clear a jam? Is she going to carry it in a purse where it can get gunky? In every case a .38 revolver would be better.
I got my CCW instructor license to teach little old ladies 27 years ago. I have one little old 71 one year old that I gave worked with for over 30 years. She has had surgery on both wrists and is my best resource for those questions. She is also the best teacher or older ladies in the room always.

I chose a revolver for her, a model 637 with a Crimson Trace on it. At 15 ounces it is lightening fast and shoots 125 grain hollow points above 925 fps. I can make things dance with that little gun,so she gave it to me. I wanted her to gave two Guns that she could use, if needed. We travel by RV and to family scattered everywhere. A couple down the road were murdered in New Mexico when they stopped at a roadside park on I 40 to walk their dogs, we have walked our dogs there a couple dozen times. Both of them carried handguns and had permits. One was in the glove box, the other in a purse when three escapees stuck Guns in their face, they put their hands up and did as they were told,. They were shot to death, and then them and both dogs were burned. Made national news but most people forget.

So our plan was for her to have two Guns, a big one and a small mine. I bought most of the single stack 9mms and 380s. I gifted the extras all to family, although most stay at my house for safety. After testing dozens here is what we decided on. The Rorbach 380 now known as the Remington 380 was over $1000 at the time, when Rem bought them out they went to under $300. That is her tiny gun, the ammo is Silvertips or Hydroshock. They are 100% and the gun operates flawlessly. Why? Because, we tried everything on the market and it has the easiest slide to pull back, bar none. Second,it has a very long and slow trigger pull. It measures about 4.5 pounds and is a nice trigger. I actually bought the gun for my Carry in the RV parks, but the first time she fired it, it was hers. So, both pulling the slide back and pulling the trigger was the lightest we found, and the gun gas been 100%. Recoil us really mild for a 380. The long trigger pull is also a safety factor as we gave grand kids. I hear some shooters trash the trigger, but I can teach anyone to master in in an hour..

For her second gun she chose the Ruger LCS9, with adjustable sights and an external safety. She swipes that safety off like any master shooter. The trigger is the best of all the single stacks on the market that time. I took all of them and tested them side by side. That trigger by the way is also, exactly 4.5 pounds. It us almost identical to the triggers I out on my 1911s. It came that way, so I left it alone. I also put a Crimson Trace on that gun. So that is her two carry Guns.

Not content because she like to shot, she took a liking to my Walther PP22. No, heck no. So I bought her one also. We are spending our Kids inheritance on guns, lol. The PP 22 is also easy to pull back and to pull the trigger. That makes her a better shot. And if she needed it, she can spit out ten rounds in no time.

A couple more observations about older ladies and guns. I trained two ladies last year and their primary gun is the SW EZ Shield 380. Thise guns were designed for that problem.... Problem solved. They are easy to pull back effortless, and the frame size kills any recoil. One lady was 50 and one 67. I was nit a Shiled fan, those guns are greZt. We took them to the range several tines, Both were 100%. The 50 year old also had a Makarov which I taught her to shoot, great gun, but not nearly as accurate as the Shield. I lived it, by the way. Both ladies took my suggestion and bought a 22 for practice, Both naught the Glock model 44 which is the glock 19 in 22. Great trading Guns also.

And that us what I recommend for really weak little old ladies and little old men and anyone who wants just enough piwer to defend themselves..
 

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Physics tells us that the recoil of the 9mm Luger is far greater than that of the .32. Try and convince my 68-year-old friend that she can handle either a Tupperware 9mm or one of the all-steel frame persuasion.

You are looking at this should your own eyes and not those of a weaker person. This is someone that hasn't the strength to handle either the heavier handgun or the recoil of the more powerful cartridge in a polymer-framed piece.

I'd consider that a bit myopic.

well you are correct that i was not considering the ability of the shooter to handle the additional recoil and weight of a heavier pistol or more powerful round, however you did mention a ways back the ruger mk1 in .32, which i wouldnt consider a lightweight gun at 35-40 ounces.

im truly not trying to be an a$$, i just like healthy discussion and back and forth banter. carry on, ill try and keep my thought to myself unless their helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
well you are correct that i was not considering the ability of the shooter to handle the additional recoil and weight of a heavier pistol or more powerful round, however you did mention a ways back the ruger mk1 in .32, which i wouldnt consider a lightweight gun at 35-40 ounces.

im truly not trying to be an a$$, i just like healthy discussion and back and forth banter. carry on, ill try and keep my thought to myself unless their helpful.
That Ruger would have been for me! I usually carry either .357 Magnum revolvers, 9mm Luger (Kel-Tec P11). 1991 Charter Arms 3" barreled .44 Spl SS Bulldog, EAA Witness 10mm, and a host of others.

I even have a pair of Titan .25 Autos and a plethora of .32 S&W Long revolvers (H&R and S&W). I also have a nice S&W snub-nosed .32 H&R Magnum Airweight. I also have a Zastava M70 (.32 ACP) and a Titan, also in .32 ACP.

I understand about revolvers, but my friend's hand strength isn't that great. I'm trying to get her accustomed to racking the slide on this blowback .32. I almost suggested A Kel-Tec P32, but didn't think she would appreciate a light, brisk-recoiling (for its size) self-shucking pistol.

No, if she could pull the trigger on a nice, older S&W Model 10, I would have recommended it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
Hell, I'm 67 years old and love all of my handguns, rifles, and shotguns. (I can still use them all). My Zastava M70 is fun to shoot and has such mild recoil that shot placement is easy. The accuracy of the little pistol is surprisingly good.

I figure that if she can dump 8 rounds into a miscreant's chest and/or belly, it will "take the wind out of his sails" pretty darned quickly, The potential target has a history of routinely drunken, drug-laden, abusive, alcoholic behavior.

My friend has an "order of protection" against this jackwagon and is making every effort to get him evicted from the property. (This fool has violated the conditions of his release many times and in many ways). The agency (NOAA) that funds his housing and the landlord is being notified of his continued abuse of the system. (He's just a worthless, druggie, pedophilic POS). The only reason the landlord rents to him is he and his money-grubbing wife are certain that the state will make certain that the rent is paid.

This jerk and his drug-using/dealing friends are a danger to the apartment complex.
 

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Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing: 32 ACP
What should probably be considered the bare-minimum caliber for self-defense, the 32 ACP has been in service for over 100 years and has recently seen a resurgence in the United States as the individual state governments have begun to ease restrictions on the Second Amendment and again allow citizens to carry handguns for self-defense. Popular in this role is the ’mouse gun’ or ’pocket pistol’ because they are so small and easy to carry. Recent advances in material science and aggressive engineering by pioneers such as Kel-Tec have made pocket guns both concealable and reasonably easy to shoot without extensive practice.

Where the trouble starts is with the terminal ballistics of the cartridge itself. When a visitor to the website asks me to make a recommendation of either gun or caliber, my first question is: ‘what is your experience level?’ By ‘experience level’ I mean ‘formal training by a firearms professional.’ There is no replacement for training—this is why governments around the world spend so much money on military training exercises. I strongly recommend a 32 ACP mousegun for a casual shooter looking for a CCW handgun. It may be appealing to go to the 380 ACP but it takes moderate practice to be able to use such a gun with any skill due to the recoil.
The 32 ACP is capable of moderate expansion and reaching FBI-standard penetration depths in ballistic gelatin. Most factory ammunition in mousegun calibers appears to emphasize expansion more than penetration. To date, I have not tested factory ammunition that can expand and penetrate to 12.0” in ballistic gelatin. The only way to achieve moderate expansion and adequate penetration is to handload Hornady 85gr XTP bullets over a hot charge of pistol propellant. This is not to say that factory loadings are not adequate—much the contrary. A 32 ACP JHP performs better than a 380 ACP FMJ on the shallow shotlines like hits to the arms and legs of an attacker (a very frequent occurrence given the stress of the situation) but falls flat on solid hits to the chest—the penetration is not great enough. Some have suggested ‘staggering’ the rounds in their 32 ACP such that one shot is a JHP, the next shot a FMJ, the next shot a JHP and so forth. I recommend this approach as well for 32 ACP.

32 ACP JHP vs 380 ACP FMJ

A bullets ability to wound and subsequently disable an attackers body revolves around the fluid drag acting on the bullet and the location in the body at which this occurs. One end of the spectrum would be a 32 ACP JHP which penetrates to 7.0” in 20% ballistic gelatin. Very deep penetration can be had with a 32 ACP FMJ which penetrates to 11.2” in 20% ballistic gelatin. The graph at the left illustrates the kinetic energy transfer of these bullets, overlaid with the depth in the human body that this penetration corresponds to.

32 ACP FMJ vs JHP
We see that the 32 ACP Speer 60gr Gold Dot JHP transfers the most kinetic energy at depths encountered by the leg. The implication of this is that the bullet can also reach and damage any structure located within an attackers arm. On the other hand, the FMJ bullet maximizes its damage in the thoracic cavity—making it the ideal round on shotlines involving the chest. These two examples illustrate the point that bullets can be ‘tuned’ to damage the target maximally on different shotlines in the body. Since JHPs open almost instantly, this sort of tuning of the gyroscopic stability of a bullet is most applicable to FMJ bullets. If you make an FMJ bullet less stable (slower rifling twist for instance) it will tumble earlier in the gelatin block than if it were more gyroscopically stable. To the right you will find an example experiment where I did just that : I ground a flat surface into the nose of the CCI 71gr Blazer bullet using a bench grinder. This reduced the stability of the bullet and created a homemade ‘spoon round’ which is factory made for just such a reason.
With regard to the penetration issue: I think anyone using the .32 ACP needs to practice the Cooper technique of two in the chest and one in the head. If the two in the chest don't stop the goblin, the one in the head surely will. That was Cooper's whole point about the technique.
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
With regard to the penetration issue: I think anyone using the .32 ACP needs to practice the Cooper technique of two in the chest and one in the head. If the two in the chest don't stop the goblin, the one in the head surely will. That was Cooper's whole point about the technique.
Yes, the "Mozambique Drill" will usually break off most attacks.Two 32 ACP rounds in the chest should make it through the sternum and into the lungs, aorta, or heart. The shock should "get his attention" and the 3rd to the head may just "ring his bell".

It works for me.
 

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Two stories in the caliber range under discussion that may shed a little light on handling. I have told both of them before, so the longer-term members of the Band of Fellers may skip this post if they wish.

I must have an honest face or something. There have been any number of occasions at the local gun shop when total strangers have asked my opinion on a gun they were considering buying. The most recent was an older black lady (in her seventies at a guess) who had just completed her NRA Basic Pistol course and qualified for her pistol permit, and was buying her first-ever pistol that she intended to carry concealed. She had fired a bunch of pistols in the course of her training, and had discovered she fired the .380 ACP most accurately. The clerk had four pocket pistols out on the counter for her consideration. She couldn't make up her mind. I was waiting to buy some ammo, and she turned to me.

"Excuse me, but do you know anything about pistols?" she asked.

I allowed that I did.

"Do you own any?"

"A few," I said. The clerk hid a smile. This gun shop has sold me many pistols over the years in everything from .22 LR to .45 ACP.

"If you were buying one of these pistols for self defense, which one would you buy?"

I looked at her four finalists. I didn't pick any of them up or opine on any of them I simply asked her two questions.

"Which of these pistols fits naturally in your hand and points naturally for you? And which one has controls that you can find in pitch blackness, or with your eyes shut?"

Without hesitating, she picked up the Bersa Thunder .380. "This one."

"Then that's the one you should buy. There's an old saying among pistol shooters: 'If it feels good to you, it will shoot good for you.' Get it with two spare magazines, and get a clip-on holster made to fit in your shoulder purse if that is where you intend to carry it, to keep the gunk that accumulates in a lady's purse out of it. Buy two kinds of ammo for it: Critical Defense for carry, and FMJ for practice, and fire a magazine of the Critical Defense once in awhile so you don't forget what that feels like in case you ever have to use it."

She said, "Thank you very much," and took out her wallet as the clerk smile at me over her head.


I was at the range one day just practicing with my Yugo Model 57 Tokarev. I was getting decent groups at 10 yards, the distance I train at since I don't have a CCW. (If the NYSRPA v. Bruen case forces the Peoples Democratic Republic of New York to go to "must issue," I will fix that, but in my county the only people who are granted concealed carry are LEOs, security guards, and active duty military.) A deputy a couple of stations down from me had his S&W Model 29 with the 6 1/2 inch barrel out and was doing double taps with it: Bang, Bang. I was doing the same, but unlike the real-world Model 29 (as opposed to Harry Callahan's in the movies), my Model 57 was going bahWHOOM, bahWHOOM, and sounding just like the movies' "most powerful handgun in the world."

He came over and asked, "What in the world are you shooting, that is so bleeping LOUD?" I think he was expecting me to tell him I was shooting a S&W Model 500, or one of the rifle caliber Thompson/Center Contenders in a heavy rifle caliber. When I showed him my Tok, he couldn't believe it. We made a deal: We'd swap pistols, and I'd shoot a cylinder of .44 Magnum factory standard, and he'd shoot 10 rounds (9+1) of milsurp 7.62x25 Tok.

He liked the Tokarev. The sights are excellent for a military pistol designed back in the 1930s, it grouped well for him, and I think he liked the bahWHOOM that will make any bad guy think, "Ohmigawd, he's got Harry Callahan's gun!" When he asked, I told him the model and where he could get one. I saw him at the range a couple of months later, he remembered me, and sure enough, he'd gone and bought himself a Model 57. He said that even though it was a standard size pistol, it was thin enough that he liked it for concealed carry off-duty. I guess he'd done his homework and figured that any pistol built with the criterion that it had to be able to kill a horse at 25 meters with one shot would work just fine on a bad guy; and with almost no felt recoil or muzzle rise it is easy to shoot accurately.

End of stories.

I recommend the Tokarev, the Yugo Model 57 as first choice, to anyone with small hands and a dislike for felt recoil. As I said, good government-issue sights, almost no felt recoil, next to nonexistent muzzle rise (and you can eliminate even that little if you live in a state where you can replace the issue barrel bushing with an aftermarket muzzle brake made for the Tokarev), and at pistol combat ranges, more terminal energy delivered on target than the 9mm NATO round. What's not to love? The only flies in the ointment are you may have to special-order 7,62 Tok ammo, not every gun shop carries it; and if you buy a Model 57 with the same controls as the M1911 Colt (less the grip safety), the magazines are proprietary, and expensive when you find them, and are not compatible with any other Tokarev. The Yugoslavs were making a statement by not making them compatible with other ComBloc Toks. But the pistol performs so well, in my opinion it is worth the effort to find and buy extra magazines for it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
"I recommend the Tokarev, the Yugo Model 57 as first choice, to anyone with small hands and a dislike for felt recoil. As I said, good government-issue sights, almost no felt recoil, next to nonexistent muzzle rise (and you can eliminate even that little if you live in a state where you can replace the issue barrel bushing with an aftermarket muzzle brake made for the Tokarev), and at pistol combat ranges, more terminal energy delivered on target than the 9mm NATO round. What's not to love? The only flies in the ointment are you may have to special-order 7,62 Tok ammo, not every gun shop carries it; and if you buy a Model 57 with the same controls as the M1911 Colt (less the grip safety), the magazines are proprietary, and expensive when you find them, and are not compatible with any other Tokarev. The Yugoslavs were making a statement by not making them compatible with other ComBloc Toks. But the pistol performs so well, in my opinion, it is worth the effort to find and buy extra magazines for it."

Good choice. I have one and the loud report of the 7.62 X 25 will get the attention of anyone within a city block! Sometimes it takes loud noises to make the bad guys reevaluate their "chosen vocation". If they haven't stopped to change their underwear, they'll need to do so when they return to their hole... if they're still alive.

I like it.
 
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